Salvation

[sojourner]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

The problem is that salvation isn't a rewards-based proposition. Heaven isn't the reward for being saved. Salvation is an undeserved gift. Heaven is the state in which we are fully reconciled with God.

 

[Misty]

The problem is that salvation isn't a rewards-based proposition. Heaven isn't the reward for being saved. Salvation is an undeserved gift. Heaven is the state in which we are fully reconciled with God.

A gift God can stick where the sun don't shine, if it is only for those who are 'saved'!

 

[sojourner]

A gift God can stick where the sun don't shine, if it is only for those who are 'saved'!

that doesn't make any sense. "God can stick salvation if it is only for those who are saved?"

Salvation is for all humanity.

 

[Misty]

that doesn't make any sense. "God can stick salvation if it is only for those who are saved?"

Salvation is for all humanity.

Of course it isn't, it is only for people who believe in it, if Christian fundamentalists are to be believed, the vast majority of people on earth don't believe in it.

 

[sojourner]

Of course it isn't, it is only for people who believe in it, if Christian fundamentalists are to be believed, the vast majority of people on earth don't believe in it.

Hmmm...:sarcastic
I'd rather to subscribe to "God loves you, whether you like it or not."

I have a few atheist friends who are better in tune with the universe than most Christians I know. I like to believe that God will take care of the, just as God does the "faithful."

 

[Willamena]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

Perhaps that's why you've not grasped it?

 

[Eliot Wild]

You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven.

I got saved so I could drink wine and eat those little crackers during the Lord's Supper. As a Southern Baptist, imagine my surprise, however, to find out they really just give you Grape Juice, not wine. I was indignant. What the hell? It was like a fake ceremony wherein we only pretended to eat the body of Christ and drink his blood. Jesus didn't use grape juice.

Anyway, if what you are saying is true, that being saved also gets me into heaven as well as a free meal . . . Sweeeeeeeeeet!!! Bonus!!!!!

 

[Misty]

Hmmm...:sarcastic
I'd rather to subscribe to "God loves you, whether you like it or not."

I have a few atheist friends who are better in tune with the universe than most Christians I know. I like to believe that God will take care of the, just as God does the "faithful."

Being loved by the god character in the Bible would be like being loved by a tiger before it tears you limb from limb, I will pass, thanks.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Greetings. From one perspective on the New Testament, salvation is for the living and might be said to be salvation from the suffering, fear, and death of finitude. With this view there are at least three ways to salvation:

THROUGH THE KINGDOM:
Matthew 6:33 (KJV)
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Luke 17:21 (KJV)
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

THROUGH LOVE:
Mark 12:30 (KJV)
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

and THROUGH BELIEF IN JESUS AS CHRIST:
John 14:6 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The first two ways might be said to be direct revelation which may come through looking inward with meditation, contemplation, and prayer. The third way might be said to be secondary revelation where belief is placed in one who has had primary revelation. Salvation is known at the time of overwhelming transformation from the first two and with the accompaniment of Grace from belief and commitment in the third.

 

[sojourner]

Being loved by the god character in the Bible would be like being loved by a tiger before it tears you limb from limb, I will pass, thanks.

Or, it could be like a cub being loved and protected by a mother tiger, who tears the enemy limb from limb...

 

[Misty]

Or, it could be like a cub being loved and protected by a mother tiger, who tears the enemy limb from limb...

If a deity exists I am happy for it to be my equal, but I have no wish to be subordinate to it!

 

[jtartar]

I have never been able to grasp the idea of salvation by faith, and you're saved now. That makes no sense. You are supposed to be saved so you can make it into heaven. How can you know that you're saved if you haven't made it yet?

Senedjem,
The Bible actually tells us that we are not SAVED until the end, Matt 24:13. We are told that we should keep testing whether we are in the faith, 2Cor 13:5. The Bible points out that we are enemies of God, unless we are saved, and then CONTINUE in the faith, Col 1:21-23.
These scriptures tell us that there is no such thing as ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED and Jesus made this statement: if you turn away from him you will not stay saved, Matt 10:32,33. Notice what Paul told Timothy about some who had lost their faith, 1Tim 1:18-20.
There is a principle written in Ezekiel that clearly shows what God's thinking is on this matter, Eze 33:13.
All people can only be in what is called a Promerit condition, or a saved condition at the time. For us to gain a righteous standing with God we must understand what His will is, Rom 12:2. We must search for the ONE FAITH that God is blessing today, Eph 4:3-6, so that we can associate with them, Heb 10:24,25, 1Pet 5:6-10. There are several steps we must all go through, We must learn about God and His son Jesus, about God's purpose for this earth. We must dedicate ourselves to God to do His will, then we must get baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Matt 28:19,20. We must be followers of Jesus Christ, 1Pet 2:21, and get baptized as he did, Matt 3:13-17,1Pet 3:20. From then on we must try to live a life of righteousness, Heb 13:18.
Since we cannot obey God's laws perfectly, God has sent His son to provide a Ransom Sacrifice for us, Matt 20:28, a propitiary covering so that our sins are not charged to us any longer, but to Jesus' sacrifice for us, 1John 2:1,2. Anyone who comes under Jesus sacrifice, in that saved condition is considered PERFECT PERPETUALLY, Heb 10:14, by faith in Jesus' sacrifice, Acts 4:12, Gal 2:15,16.
Since we can never keep from sinning, God has declared that His people are saved by Grace or undeserved kindness, and God forgives us when we confess to Him and try not to keep making the same mistakes, 1John 1:9, Heb 10:26,27.
Christians are not under The Old Mosaic Law Covenant. Only the laws that were in the Old Covenant that are principles, and are reiterated for Christians are obligatory. We are under a set of laws such as the Golden Rule, Matt 7:12, The Law of The Christ, Gal 6:2, and especially the law of love toward God and our neighbors, Matt 22:36-40. Notice that verse 40 says that the whole law hangs on these two commandments. Romans says the same, Rom 13:8-10.
The Christian laws are far superior than the Mosaic Law. Christian laws require a person to DO THINGS, to take POSITIVE steps. The Mosaic Law was mostly negative; you must NOT do things, Gal 6:10 is a good example, James 2:14-18, 20-26.

 

[sojourner]

If a deity exists I am happy for it to be my equal, but I have no wish to be subordinate to it!

Doesn't that kind of run counter to the definition of deity?

 

[Misty]

Well my last post is a discussion aimed at getting out of this world,
and having some sense of direction.
If you are not willing to trust someone else...having gone before you...
then you would prefer to wander off the known trail?...guessing which way?

You then must argue, that you trust yourself.

But that too... by your viewpoint.... would be flawed?

Who has gone before me?

 

[Misty]

Doesn't that kind of run counter to the definition of deity?

Possibly! I don't know why some people want to be subservient to some entity though.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

....and doesn't the 'believing' part require remaining faithful and obedient to God?
What happens to those who practice sin willfully after coming to an accurate knowledge of Bible truth according to Hebrews 10v26?

You are confusing sin and it's consequences with salvation and it's causes.

Sin causes death not condemnation. Belief or non-belief in Jesus as the only begotten son of God is the pivot on which eternal destination swings.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Just saying it makes it so. That's "faith." Capiche?

Actually that is not the Biblical view. Becoming saved relies on having faith in God. The actual mechanics of salvation is done by God.

Also the act of saying that you believe in God does not save you; it is the acceptance by God of your faith in Him that begins the salvation process. It is this process that seems to be at the heart of the OP. The final part of the salvation process as it is presented Biblically is the recieving a new sin-free body and living an eternity in the presense of God. The beginning of the process is accepting God through faith. The middle is the attempt to live according to God's will through the leading of the Holy Spirit. That we may fail, and sin along the way is not a factor in our salvation, only our walk and closeness to God in this life. It may call into question whether or not God actually accepted us or not (which leads to the favorite occupation of fundamentalists, questioning your neighbor's salvation).

 

[sandy whitelinger]

If we do not want to sin, then don't we need to be saved from sin?

Biblically, we are saved from the curse, or the consequence of sin which is death.

The desire not to sin involves gaining a new mind through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the knowledge and effect of God's word on the believer. Armed with this a believer does battle with the temptations of the flesh which lead all to sin. sometimes the flesh wins. Sometimes the will to do right wins. the best way to know which is predominant is to look for the fruits of either. The observer can determine which wins most of the time in a believer, the flesh or the correct mind.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

There is a difference between credulity [blind faith] and the faith and belief that Jesus learned and taught by logic and reasoning on Scriptures.

The religious leaders of Jesus day had passion and sincerity, but Jesus pronounced many 'woes' and his reasons for saying them at Matt 23.

So Bible faith is based on the religious truth as found in Scripture.
To establish a Bible teaching there are corresponding or parallel verses and passages to compare among all of the Bible writers found by topic or subject arrangement. Jesus often referred or quoted existing Scripture as the basis for his teachings and we can also search or research Scriptures as did the people of Acts 17v11.

I've seen that there are perhaps two kinds of faith. One, I have faith that the sun will come up in the east tomorrow because it has everyday of my life. Next there is what I call a child-like faith. It seems that all you need to do is ask God for help, in a child-like manner, expecting and knowing the He will respond to your needs and do what is right for your well-being. Samson was a perfect example of this. No matter how much he sinned, Samson asked God for help, fully believing the God would respond, and He did.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Who has gone before me? Of course my understanding is flawed, but then so it that of everyone else where matters of faith is concerned, no one knows for sure they have the answers.

One can drive themselves nuts in that vortex.