Should I really

[firedragon]

Of course there is no legitimate reason why anyone who knows the answer couldn't factually address the question involved

In my opinion

This is the link, which you CALL a legitimate answer.

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

How is that an answer to this question?

So who are these "some Muslims" who want to convert or kill anyone who "see Islam through other than Sunni or Shia"?

Bogus.

Secondly, his answer was "NEWS", your answer (which is of course bogus, quick google) was PEW research (which doesnt answer anything I asked).

So of course that was a valiant attempt, trying to answer someone else, but a failed one.

 

[danieldemol]

This is the link, which you CALL a legitimate answer.

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

How is that an answer to this question?

So who are these "some Muslims" who want to convert or kill anyone who "see Islam through other than Sunni or Shia"?

Bogus.

Secondly, his answer was "NEWS", your answer (which is of course bogus, quick google) was PEW research (which doesnt answer anything I asked).

So of course that was a valiant attempt, trying to answer someone else, but a failed one.

It answers about Muslim attitudes to enforcing shariah, blasphemy and apostasy penalties.

In my opinion those are the means by which Muslims attempt to eliminate practices they see as as either blasphemous or as a form of apostasy (which can cover certain practices as well).

See praying before an image as a form of disbelief? - covered by apostasy if they are born into a non-sufi sect such as Wahhabism.

See any of the Sufi practices as blasphemous - again covered by blasphemy laws.

See them as practising a different sharia? Covered under forcing sharia law on the general population.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

It answers about Muslim attitudes to enforcing shariah, blasphemy and apostasy penalties.

So that's irrelevant. Thus its not a legitimate answer in the first place.

 

[danieldemol]

So that's irrelevant. Thus its not a legitimate answer in the first place.

In my opinion it is directly relevant.
Let us consider a real life case study as an example, from July 6th 2021 Nigerian preacher sentenced to death for blasphemy in Kano

'Abdul Inyass is a cleric in a local branch of the Tijaniyya sect, a mystical Sufi branch of Islam. Inyass' sect, called the Haqiqa (Realist) group, was founded by Senegalese cleric Sheikh Ibrahim Niasse, a prominent 20th-century Islamic scholar. Inyass was arrested in May 2015 after reportedly blaspheming against the Prophet Muhammad during a Tijaniyya religious festival and his trial was carried out in secret.

Inyass is reported to have said that "[Sheikh] Niasse was bigger than Prophet Muhammad,"'

So you can see that the belief of a Sufi sect is being treated as blasphemy and other Muslims are using this as a pretext to kill a Sufi Muslim.

In other words, the questions of who supports blashemy, apostasy and enforcing sharia are all directly relevant to your question, 'who are these "some Muslims" who want to convert or kill anyone who "see Islam through other than Sunni or Shia"?' as it is those who see Sufi practices as blasphemy or unbelief, or as followers of a different sharia and support punishment for not following those three.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

In my opinion it is directly relevant.

Its not valid. But thanks for your opinion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Of course there is no legitimate reason why anyone who knows the answer couldn't factually address the question involved

In my opinion

You may not be able to read my mindre, but what you have done in my view has been to pay attention to what i have written in RF for a Long time. And it seems like you understand that even i try to write understanable english, some times my english do not reach out to the full meaning of what i want to say.

And i have gotten used to being misunderstood, it is something i must accept and try to change. Not to change those who make critique of of my understanding and beliefs.

 

[Shakeel]

If someone is stealing, Quran asks people to punish him. But where does Quran say, go and check on people to see of they are disbelievers, and if someone is a disbeliever, punish him, or even blame him? Quote verse if you say this is what Quran tells you.

I should remind you what you originally quoted me saying was "denying that a kafir is a kafir is an act of disbelief." you're arguing about something unrelated to what I said.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yes. Islam. Islam is not studied from Wikipedia and it's funny people think if something is mentioned in Wikipedia it is automatically true or real. Don't they teach children soon after kindergarten that Wikipedia is not a proper source?

Sorry, Wikipedia wasn't around when I was in kindergarten.

While it took some heat as not being the most reliable source at its onset, it is now considered by most to be a valid source of information.

Would you like to discount Britannica as well?

Sufism, mystical Islamic belief and practice in which Muslims seek to find the truth of divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of God. It consists of a variety of mystical paths that are designed to ascertain the nature of humanity and of God and to facilitate the experience of the presence of divine love and wisdom in the world.
​

Sufism | Definition, History, Beliefs, Significance, & Facts

Because I was taught soon after kindergarten that Britannica was a "proper source."

 

[Spirit of Light]

Sorry, Wikipedia wasn't around when I was in kindergarten.

While it took some heat as not being the most reliable source at its onset, it is now considered by most to be a valid source of information.

Would you like to discount Britannica as well?

Sufism, mystical Islamic belief and practice in which Muslims seek to find the truth of divine love and knowledge through direct personal experience of God. It consists of a variety of mystical paths that are designed to ascertain the nature of humanity and of God and to facilitate the experience of the presence of divine love and wisdom in the world.
​

Sufism | Definition, History, Beliefs, Significance, & Facts

Because I was taught soon after kindergarten that Britannica was a "proper source."

To add to your post

Sufism is a way of life in which a deeper identity is discovered and lived. This deeper identity, beyond the already known personality, is in harmony with all that exists. This deeper identity, or essential self, has abilities of awareness, action, creativity and love that are far beyond the abilities of the superficial personality. Eventually it is understood that these abilities belong to a greater life and being which we individualize in our own unique way while never being separate from it.

Sufism is less a doctrine or a belief system than an experience and way of life. It is a tradition of enlightenment that carries the essential truth forward through time. Tradition, however, must be conceived in a vital and dynamic sense. Its expression must not remain limited to the religious and cultural forms of the past. The truth of Sufism requires reformulation and fresh expression in every age.

Read more here
What is Sufism? - The Threshold Society

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have never heard any Muslim here call for violence.....

Such posts would off course also be modded away rather quickly.
While I agree that I haven't seen any "calls for violence", I most definatly have seen loads of posts dripping with pure hatred and intolerance. Going as far to praying for our destruction and hoping no angel sheds a tear over our eventual inevitable demise when islam takes over the world.

And this was just a few days ago.

True Muslims are aware there is no compulsion in religion.

So who died and made you the universal recognizer of "true muslims"?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Who specifically?

Your said "Some muslims seem to want to convert or kill those who are non muslims.".

Now you say "Extremists and those who do not like islam seen through other than sunni or shia"

So who are these "some Muslims" who want to convert or kill anyone who "see Islam through other than Sunni or Shia"?

Just FYI: when you ask questions like this, nobody can take you seriously.

Nobody believes that you are this oblivious to the existence of militant muslims the likes of ISIS, Al-qaida, Boko Haram, etc etc.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I should remind you what you originally quoted me saying was "denying that a kafir is a kafir is an act of disbelief." you're arguing about something unrelated to what I said.

OK, but what you are saying seems like, "a believer is supposed to realize and recognize who is a kafir." This is the same as saying if you deny a kafir is kafir, then you are not a believer. But where in Quran says such a thing?

 

[Shakeel]

OK, but what you are saying seems like, "a believer is supposed to realize and recognize who is a kafir." This is the same as saying if you deny a kafir is kafir, then you are not a believer. But where in Quran says such a thing?

That isn't the same at all and neither is the same as what I said. The Qur'an tells us who are disbelievers and who are believers. Denying that is denying what the Qur'an says - which is disbelief.

 

[Shakeel]

Just FYI: when you ask questions like this, nobody can take you seriously.

Nobody believes that you are this oblivious to the existence of militant muslims the likes of ISIS, Al-qaida, Boko Haram, etc etc.

If the OP had meant those, he would have mentioned them. Did you see his responses in many threads, including this one, when asked to specify who those are? He never says he's talking about terrorist organisations. If he was, he would say so.

 

[Shakeel]

Would you like to discount Britannica a

I have many times already.

 

[Spirit of Light]

If the OP had meant those, he would have mentioned them. Did you see his responses in many threads, including this one, when asked to specify who those are? He never says he's talking about terrorist organisations. If he was, he would say so.

ISIS, Al-qaida, Boko Haram are all terror groups and there should not be a need to name them, it is often in the news about them doing evil deeds

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That isn't the same at all and neither is the same as what I said. The Qur'an tells us who are disbelievers and who are believers.

Yes, Quran tells who is a believer and who is a disbeliever.

Denying that is denying what the Qur'an says - which is disbelief.

This part of what you say though, is it also in the Quran? If you deny who is a disbeliever, then you are a disbeliever?

I think it teaches opposite of what you say. God is "Sattar", one of the names of God, meaning He hides the sins and shortcoming of people.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Such posts would off course also be modded away rather quickly.
While I agree that I haven't seen any "calls for violence", I most definatly have seen loads of posts dripping with pure hatred and intolerance. Going as far to praying for our destruction and hoping no angel sheds a tear over our eventual inevitable demise when islam takes over the world.

Yeah and what website is this where you are seeing this? I've seen some Christians here who have [posted nonsensical indirect violent posts with no retribution but that is neither here nor there.

So who died and made you the universal recognizer of "true muslims"?

Nobody. However in my 39 years of existing on this planet with also 20 plus years on the internet people tend to make stuff up because they may dislike a religion, basketball team, dodge ball team and the like. You're making generalizations which aren't true of Islam nor of all Muslims. Like I said I've seen more hatred come from so-called Christians than Muslims on and off the internet.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It answers about Muslim attitudes to enforcing shariah, blasphemy and apostasy penalties.

In my opinion those are the means by which Muslims attempt to eliminate practices they see as as either blasphemous or as a form of apostasy (which can cover certain practices as well).

See praying before an image as a form of disbelief? - covered by apostasy if they are born into a non-sufi sect such as Wahhabism.

See any of the Sufi practices as blasphemous - again covered by blasphemy laws.

See them as practising a different sharia? Covered under forcing sharia law on the general population.

In my opinion.

You're Baha'i we have been through this before. Obviously Islam has truth in it considering your faith is an extension of Islam. Although considered heterodoxy, your faith is definitely an extension of Islam so indirectly by talking about Islam you thereby are in actuality talking about aspects of your faith.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If the OP had meant those, he would have mentioned them. Did you see his responses in many threads, including this one, when asked to specify who those are? He never says he's talking about terrorist organisations. If he was, he would say so.

My guess is that @Conscious thoughts is simply not humoring your silly playing-dumb games.
As evidence, I submit that he liked the comment where I noted @firedragon that people can't take him seriously when he asks questions like that, followed by me naming such militant islamic groups.

Why would he like the comment if he didn't agree to it?
I tagged him in so he can respond for himself because I indeed don't want to speak for him.