Should Muslims acknowledge the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

[Moishe3rd]

Probably cause now a days that kinda stuff (conquests) ain't cool....

Hmm... Yes. I suppose.
However, it would seem a bit much to single out Israel for its "conquests" of 1948 and 1967 as being particularly uncool and continue to ignore the rest of the world's conquests made during or after the same time period from Russia to China to Vietnam to Sudan to Africa to Turkey to England to whomever....
But, again, the particular uncoolness of Israel couldn't have anything to do with it being Jewish....

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Hmm... Yes. I suppose.
However, it would seem a bit much to single out Israel for its "conquests" of 1948 and 1967 as being particularly uncool and continue to ignore the rest of the world's conquests made during or after the same time period from Russia to China to Vietnam to Sudan to Africa to Turkey to England to whomever....
But, again, the particular uncoolness of Israel couldn't have anything to do with it being Jewish....

Oh It probably does have to do with it being Jewish. But now a days because of the attention the middle east gets, what's happening between Israel and Palestine is being pushed by the media and politicians (I have no idea what the actual living situation is like over there) as a form of conquest due to the way the news is presented.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Oh It probably does have to do with it being Jewish. But now a days because of the attention the middle east gets, what's happening between Israel and Palestine is being pushed by the media and politicians (I have no idea what the actual living situation is like over there) as a form of conquest due to the way the news is presented.

Indeed.
That is the crux of the problem.
"Because of the attention the middle east gets," with its ongoing,100 year old massive sectarian civil war, with its accompanying incredible slaughter and self destruction, it must be somebody's fault!
Hmmm.... Who could that be?
"The way the news is presented" says.... wait for it....
THE JEWS!!!
Wow. Didn't see that one coming....

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Indeed.
That is the crux of the problem.
"Because of the attention the middle east gets," with its ongoing,100 year old massive sectarian civil war, with its accompanying incredible slaughter and self destruction, it must be somebody's fault!
Hmmm.... Who could that be?
"The way the news is presented" says.... wait for it....
THE JEWS!!!
Wow. Didn't see that one coming....

I blame the World Governments for not understanding tribal lines when they tried to carve up the world even more so after World War I....

 

[Monotheist 101]

I think israel will be a better place if the constant war ends. Both israel and the muslim countries must end the pointless war. Yea, muslims should acknowledge Israel.

Like the Indians must acknowledge Pakistani Kashmir?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Indeed. It is a very chauvinistic point of view.
You appear to have a problem with that that compels you to label it "superior" and "ugly."
I disagree.

I never labeled your view superior, simply ugly.

 

[Assad91]

Sigh....
No, Turkey is not Arab, nor is Kurdistan.
However, both the Turks and the Kurds have ruled the Arab/Muslim world.
The Turks for over 600 years and, of course, the most famous Sultan of all, Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb, was a Kurd.
Which is why "Arab" was in quotation marks.
Quotation marks in the English speaking world, when used in this fashion, denote that the word being used is not necessarily the correct word to use.

I understand that. I am a native English speaker, so don't get snobby with me buddy.

But regardless, it is pretty stupid to write "Arab" when describing them. No matter the silly justification.

 

[Shermana]

For "Khanzers" (Khazars) we look nothing like Mongols and Turks.

Seriously, have these people even seen a Khazar before? They look Asian! Like Tatars.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I understand that. I am a native English speaker, so don't get snobby with me khanzer buddy.

But regardless, it is pretty stupid to write "Arab" when describing them. No matter the silly justification.

Quoting the great comedian, Steve Martin and said with his proper inflection, "Well, excuuuuuuse me!...."

And, for the record, "khanzer buddy," using English quotation marks is not a "justification."

 

[Assad91]

For "Khanzers" (Khazars) we look nothing like Mongols and Turks.

Seriously, have these people even seen a Khazar before? They look Asian! Like Tatars.

lol khanzer=/=khazars.

Anyway, I'd say most Jews look more like Europeans then anything.

 

[Shermana]

lol khanzer=/=khazars.

Anyway, I'd say most Jews look more like Europeans then anything.

This is the only thing that shows up for Khanzer. It appears to be a singer.

[youtube]dmSSGGn0lbY[/youtube]
khanzer in raaz diyan gallan.avi - YouTube

What was meant by referring to a Jew as a "Khanzer", I've never come across that term before, and I can't find anything on the web about it.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I think Khanzeer, is arabic for pig.. Odd that Jews would be named after pigs..maybe its a a few of them who eat pork, and are referred to as Pig jews or Khanzeer Jews..wishful thinking

 

[Shermana]

Aha, Khanzeer.

Ah, well I think its against forum rules to call each other swine, even if your holy texts refer to us as "pigs and apes".

 

[Monotheist 101]

Lol I didnt call anyone a Pig per se.. Just my thoughts on what Khanzeer could be..lol

 

[Shermana]

You didn't, Assad did.

And it definitely means swine, 100%.

 

[Monotheist 101]

even if your holy texts refer to us as "pigs and apes".

Im not sure if it refers to ALL Jews as pigs and apes, it does contrast the similarities between a dog and the Jewish people though.

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verses 65-66:
65 And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath; We said to them: "Be ye apes despised and rejected."
66 So We made it an example to their own time and to their posterity and a lesson to those who fear Allah.

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 5 Surah Maidah verse 60:
60 Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine those who worshipped Evil; these are (many times) worse in rank and far more astray from the even Path!
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 7 Surah Aaraaf verses 163-166:
163 Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! They transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them openly holding up their heads but on the day they had no Sabbath they came not: thus did We make a trial of them for they were given to transgression.
164 When some of them said: "why do ye preach to a people whom Allah will destroy or visit with a terrible punishment?" Said the preachers: "to discharge our duty to your Lord and perchance they may fear him."
165 When they disregarded the warnings that had been given them We rescued those who forbade evil; but We visited the wrong-doers with a grievous punishment because they were given to transgression.
166 When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibition, We said to them: "Be ye apes despised and rejected."

Contrast it with..

Bible, Book of Exodus 31: 14-16
14. “Observe the Sabbath, because it is Holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death. Whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.”
15. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, Holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath Day must be put to death.
16. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come, as a lasting covenant.

Transformed into monkeys, seems alot better than "must be put to death"

 

[Monotheist 101]

it does contrast the similarities between a dog and the Jewish people though

Or lest ye should say: "Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?"

Thus do We explain the signs in detail; and perchance they may turn (unto Us).

Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray.

If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

Evil as an example are people who reject Our signs and wrong their own souls.

Whom Allah doth guide,- he is on the right path: whom He rejects from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish.

Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

-Quran 7.173-179

On second thought It might just be referring to a random disbeliever and not Jews.. but I can relate to why it might be talking about the Jews.

 

[Avi1001]

Hmm... Yes. I suppose.
However, it would seem a bit much to single out Israel for its "conquests" of 1948 and 1967 as being particularly uncool and continue to ignore the rest of the world's conquests made during or after the same time period from Russia to China to Vietnam to Sudan to Africa to Turkey to England to whomever....
But, again, the particular uncoolness of Israel couldn't have anything to do with it being Jewish....

I don't consider Israel's wars of '48 and '67 conquests. '48 was a war of freedom and independence. In '67 they were threatened by their neighbors. In the past, Israel has, in most cases, set a moral high ground. That does not come through conquest.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

'48 was a war of freedom and independence.

That is a sustainable narrative, but far from the only one. Others would argue that it was a war of freedom and independence of a land previously and unjustly usurped.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I don't consider Israel's wars of '48 and '67 conquests. '48 was a war of freedom and independence. In '67 they were threatened by their neighbors. In the past, Israel has, in most cases, set a moral high ground. That does not come through conquest.

I am trying deal with the State of Israel on the same level as any other State.
I happen to agree that Israel occupies the high moral ground but, my beliefs in the morality of Israel is based on the Torah and, American values.
Most of the world does not share these values vis a vis "a moral high ground."

So, in this particular thread, I am attempting to deal with Israel on par with any other nation.
And, in that light, the Jewish State of Israel most certainly did conquer the land it controls - just as the tribe of al Saud conquered the Arabian peninsula; or the late unlamented Quadafy conquered Libya; or Saddam conquered Iraq; or the Khomeini's Wiliyat al fiqh conquered Iran; or the Taliban conquered Afghanistan; or Russia conquered Chechnya and Georgia; or China conquered Tibet; or Vietnam conquered South Vietnam, etc., etc...
The Jews, coming from an over 3,000 year old culture that values compassion and justice far more than its neighbors, were far more benign in their conquests but - they did conquer (and win, Thank G-d).