Unfortunately true and horrid
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Should we fear Islam?
- Thread starter sonofskeptish
- Start date
Unfortunately true and horrid
Ba'al
Active Member
This statement implies that mulsims who live in the "stone age" are to be feared more than muslims raised in western culture.
AxisMundi
E Pluribus Unum!!!
Ignorance is a lack of education and knowledge and should be feared and avoided by all of us.
Science as a Religious Duty
The greatest expansion of the early Islamic empire was completed by the Umayyad Dynasty (661 -750 CE) with their capital in Damascus. Their successor, the Abbasids (750 1258 CE) abandoned the policy of territorial expansion and focussed instead on the creation of an Islamic civilisation, centred in Baghdad. They believed it to be their religious duty to understand God's Creation in order to understand Him better, and through this understanding, to create a most rational religion for all mankind. They collected, translated and studied books of knowledge from all the known ancient civilisations, especially from the Greek, in search of enlightenment. In the process, they created the Islamic Golden Age that flourished in science.
They invented/discovered algebra, the number theory (even the notion of different infinities), much of trigonometry, theory of human vision, sociology and anthropology. They excelled, without parallel at that time, in all branches of knowledge, including astronomy, higher mathematics, optics, cryptography, chemistry, engineering, cartography, geography, economics, philosophy, history and of course medicine, including surgery, all backed by technological innovations, such as papermaking, astronomical instruments, clocks, hydraulic machines and dams. [For further information, see the book: Science Under Islam Rise, Decline and Revival, by S. M. Deen, website: www.scienceunderislam.com]
Then darkness descended over us, we turned against science and generally against secular knowledge, as our fortunes declined. We may highlight our current state with two quotations. From the physicist Prof Reza Mansouri of Sharif University (Tehran), Physicsworlds, Aug 2007.
"By the 15th century, Islamic science had all but dried up, and today Muslim countries remain near the bottom of the scientific pile. Not one of the top 200 technical universities, according to the Times Higher Education Supplement, is located in a Muslim country."
Snowber
Active Member
I believe (I use the term believe loosely here) that there were and may very well be true believers even today no matter what they call themselves.
I definitely don't see "true believers" and "false believers", someone who calls themself Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Whatever else(in this case at least) then kills someone without justification = false believer.
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here but, if i understand it correctly, I will say that a true believer does not have to worry about justifying their faith to human beings, rather their judgement rests with GOD alone.
Just making the comment here. (May have been a specific reason for it, but it was yesterday, today's today, don't wanna go back and justify it right now)
And I agree with you here, my point is we should not generalize questions against "all people of a religion" as the OP does. Or else, of course, we end up with an endless argument thread.
I'm not seeing the contradiction.
I'd also like to mention something here not to anyone specific:
Religious corruptions has inevitably been the result of human innovation. Humans, whether religious or not, WILL commit evil. Does everyone think that just because many humans today use the Abrahamic religions as justification for evil (falsely if I may add) today think that had they NOT EXISTED that humans wouldn't make up some other reason for evil if they wanted to?
Now as for "Islam being today's evil", it is not the TRUE Islam that is evil today. If the OP had made more of a claim of "Are hardline religious groups such as Al-Qaeda something to fear?" I'd be totally with you because OF COURSE true Muslims don't support radical religious organizations. Lol I guess people just want to stir up some dangerous conversation (definitely keeps me busy)
Its pretty straightforward,a Muslim living in a backward Islamist Country would have no problem with either Stoning someone to death,decapitating an Apostate or Homosexual or punishing a Rape victim among other punishments.
A Muslim raised and living in the West cannot carry out any of the above because it is in breach of the Laws of the land,besides its no accident that most moderate Muslims live in the West,there are secular Muslims here with a progressive and Democratic outlook,so yeah Muslims from the Stoneage should be feared.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
By the same tokken those 'false believers' might call YOU a 'false believer'. so how do non Muslim people in general come to terms with two Muslim parties with differing agendas? is it fair to simply shrug one off as 'false belivers' or 'non Muslim'? the reality is that both parties practice the religion of Islam, and like all religions they both have different takes. all religions have divisions into schools of thought, interpretation, agendas.
I'm sorry but your answer is based on your ideal image of Islam as being above social problems and challenges. and I claim the exact opposite. that all religions face social problems. and labeling those social and political problems which are now highly mixed with international affairs to be rooted in a dogmatic stance against 'false believers' is simply ignoring the problem and making a religion into something which is not- mainly a pure philosophy beyond the affairs of the world.
again, to me a religion is everything that is human and social, a religion's main focus is the community, therefore it will always have social challenges and various schools of interpretation. it will always have problems and challenges to address instead of dismissing.
Snowber
Active Member
First off I'd like to say that I don't mind being labeled as someone who is NOT a believer. Why? Well I definitely don't think I've traversed the path between a "Submitter" and a "Believer":
I don't see where I made a claim that any religion is above social challenges. Challenges and tests are a normal part of life. Instead I am simply trying to show that those "terrible Muslims" we see today are people who I do not think would be considered "true Muslims" in the eyes of a Muslim(Submitter) who has paid attention to what the Koran had to teach. Again, a misunderstanding may have taken place here.
Snowber
Active Member
Well thanks for the discussion.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Its much more realistic to me. all religions have problems. for example to say that people have not been persecuted in the name of Christianity because the persecuters were unChristian is a non sequitur.
all religions will always have issues and problems, because it is human beings who practice them. there is no 'true believer' and 'false believers' there are just 'believers', or what I call adherents.
all religions will always have issues and problems, because it is human beings who practice them. there is no 'true believer' and 'false believers' there are just 'believers', or what I call adherents.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Do try to give some of us more credit. some of us demand standards in our debates. we do not like to be dismissed with lofty ideological arguments.
Snowber
Active Member
I completely agree with most of that. Religions will have problems because fallible human beings practice them. I am giving you my notion, according to what the Koran teaches, as to what a Believer is vs a Submitter (Muslim).
I don't see any argument here if there was one intended if that sums it up.
Now if we want to say that the person who committed an act of terrorism was a believer, then yes, they probably did believe something. Did they believe the Koran as it was intended? Probably not.
Did they believe that the guy who said they would get lots of virgins in Heaven if they committed the act of terrorism and died? Maybe, maybe not, but they must have been desperate enough to commit it with "hopes" that they would.
Snowber
Active Member
Question was "should we fear Islam", I gave my answer.
As for standards in debates, if that means I have to play along in round-a-bout arguments then I do not mean to sound arrogant at all, but it's not for me. To have a healthy debate you need to be specific in the topic you are discussing.
AxisMundi
E Pluribus Unum!!!
It should be noted that, by far, the things listed above were taken from other cultures and/or developed by pre-Islam Arabs, and not developed BY Muslims.
I was not aware of that.
There are many Muslims today who would agree with this:
God will not change our current weak state unless we change our inner selves to embrace the study of science as a religious duty, as was accepted by the early Muslim scholars who created the Golden Age of Islam. It is science, not extremism, that can empower Muslims in our technology-driven modern world. The main purpose of CAMSAM (Campaign for More Science Among Muslims) is to bring this message to all Muslims, particularly to our youngsters, and thus to help create a reformed Muslim society in which science sprouts and blooms.
http://www.muslimreform.org/musref.htm
AxisMundi
E Pluribus Unum!!!
Might I suggest you use historically accurate sites, and not Muslim apologetic site?
AxisMundi
E Pluribus Unum!!!
Suggestion noted, but sometimes white cloves do more good than a sledgehammer.
And sometimes propeganda has little to no basis in facts.
.lava
Veteran Member
hatred is trully blinding. you make no sense. how could a Muslim couple raise their kids neutral? how could any parents raise their kids neutral? you can not prevent your child learning from your doings even if you chose not to talk about your beliefs. being a Muslim is a life style. it is not forcing your religious views on your kids. it is basicly being yourself at home.
besides, seems like you don't know what faith is. you can't force anyone to have faith. nobody can put faith within you. faith is something that grows in the heart of individual. having Muslims parens or having atheist parent can not decide which direction your heart wants to go. i was not born in a religious family. never ever seen someone performing salaat at home. there was only one neighbour who happened to look like Muslim and he was very hateful guy. i remember him quite well. the first thing i learn from religious people was darkness in the eyes of bigot and ignorant people. so? none of this could prevent me from having faith because how i perceive this planet and how i interpret it has nothing to do with what's in this world. maybe someday you realize that if people were given fear and taught to hate even though they have no faith within their hearts, then they turn out to be ignorant, violent and bigot people. that's not called faith, my friend, that's called ideology. as my master says all the time: "There is nothing without love" so you and any other human being who's afraid of Islam should know that you better not expect any love (which by the way, you should not expect to get what you refuse to give) from any human being, religious or non-religious, if they hate creation of God. whoever loves God would naturally love what God has created. and the rest, who hate humans and say they love God; you need to know they only call their own egos "God". you may have heard about shirk, one of the greatest sin in Islam, you should also find out about hidden shirk where one worships his own ego as if it was God. that's what some Muslims do and it has nothing to do with faith. if you have faith, you turn to God, not to world; you search for your own mistakes and sins to be better person, not others; you only try to change your own way of life to be better servant, not others. unfortunately, ideology works as exact opposite way. know the difference, please.
thank you
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