Should we fear Islam?

[.lava]

Its pretty straightforward,a Muslim living in a backward Islamist Country would have no problem with either Stoning someone to death,decapitating an Apostate or Homosexual or punishing a Rape victim among other punishments.

and you are talking on the behalf of how many people exactly?

.

 

[Caladan]

Now if we want to say that the person who committed an act of terrorism was a believer, then yes, they probably did believe something. Did they believe the Koran as it was intended? Probably not.

Did they believe that the guy who said they would get lots of virgins in Heaven if they committed the act of terrorism and died? Maybe, maybe not, but they must have been desperate enough to commit it with "hopes" that they would.

I think we will be underestimating just how far the length of religious passions, the beliefs of people and fanaticism would take them. also I believe many terrorists do not simply engage in terrorism to supposedly receive virgins. you question their understanding of the Qur'an, but on the other hand they question yours, one thing is for sure they have a strong interpretation of the Qur'an which takes the perpetrators of terror acts a long way. me? I cannot simply dismiss them as 'unbelievers'. to me they are some of the strongest believers on the face of the earth. they also represent a religious stream, and a religious interpretation that we cannot swip under the rug because it damages the ideology of a 'religion of peace'.

 

[England my lionheart]

and you are talking on the behalf of how many people exactly?

.

I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone,the facts and figures are there for all to see from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia,thats Islamism which to me comes across as Facism but not equated to what you believe.

 

[Gharib]

Its pretty straightforward,a Muslim living in a backward Islamist Country would have no problem with either Stoning someone to death,decapitating an Apostate or Homosexual or punishing a Rape victim among other punishments.
A Muslim raised and living in the West cannot carry out any of the above because it is in breach of the Laws of the land,besides its no accident that most moderate Muslims live in the West,there are secular Muslims here with a progressive and Democratic outlook,so yeah Muslims from the Stoneage should be feared.

prove it that according to islamic sharia a rape victim it to be punished for being raped.

 

[England my lionheart]

prove it that according to islamic sharia a rape victim it to be punished for being raped.

A 16-year-old girl who was raped in Bangladesh has been given 101 lashes for conceiving during the assault.

The girl's father was also fined and warned the family would be branded outcasts from their village if he did not pay.

According to human rights activists, the girl, who was quickly married after the attack, was divorced weeks later after medical tests revealed she was pregnant.

The girl was raped by a 20-year-old villager in Brahmanbaria district in April last year.

Bangladesh's Daily Star newspaper reported that she was so ashamed following the attack that she did not lodge a complaint.

Her rape emerged after her pregnancy test and Muslim elders in the village issued a fatwa insisting that the girl be kept in isolation until her family agreed to corporal punishment.

Her rapist was pardoned by the elders. She told the newspaper the rapist had "spoiled" her life.

"I want justice," she said

Esalam i could write all day about this and get the "no true Scotsman excuse" blah blah,Islamism isn't Islam so i'm not having a dig at your religion,just at stoneage ignorance

 

[Autodidact]

Also I wanted to add: Throughout history the TRUE believers were always a very small community, just because you see a billion Christians or Muslims doesn't mean they all practice the religion according to what GOD taught them:

Nevertheless, there are still a billion Christians and Muslims--unless you want to come up with another word for people-who-call-themselves-Muslim?

Any religion that punishes apostates does not permit freedom of belief. If Islam or Muslims say their religion does, they're incorrect, since Islam punishes apostates.

 

[.lava]

Nevertheless, there are still a billion Christians and Muslims--unless you want to come up with another word for people-who-call-themselves-Muslim?

Any religion that punishes apostates does not permit freedom of belief. If Islam or Muslims say their religion does, they're incorrect, since Islam punishes apostates.

here we go again

to say; "since Islam punishes apostates" you really need verses to back it up. Islam is a religion and it has a book to teach people what Islam is. is it really Islam who punishes apostates or people?

.

 

[Autodidact]

here we go again

to say; "since Islam punishes apostates" you really need verses to back it up. Islam is a religion and it has a book to teach people what Islam is. is it really Islam who punishes apostates or people?

.

People. People who follow Islam, that is.
And if you start over with "those people aren't really following Islam," that really doesn't work or get us anywhere. They're Muslim people, doing their best to follow Islam to the best of their ability, just like you. In so doing, they kill or otherwise punish people who came to believe that Islam is incorrect.

So, just to give the complete picture: First Muslims indoctrinate their children into Islam from an early age. Then, just in case that indoctrination doesn't work, if the children develop doubts, and leave the religion, they kill them.

In Islamic law (sharia), the consensus view is that a male apostate must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or converted under duress, for example, due to an imminent danger of being killed. A female apostate must be either executed, according to Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), or imprisoned until she reverts to Islam as advocated by the Sunni Hanafi school and by Shi'a scholars
[wiki]

In my view, any religion in which the consensus view is that if someone exercises their freedom of belief, they should be murdered, should be fought against. We need a jihad against any religion that takes this view, which Islam, as actually practiced, in the actual world, does.

If anyone starts practicing a reasonable version of Islam that does not teach this view, such an Islam can be tolerated. The actual Islam we have cannot.

 

[AxisMundi]

hatred is trully blinding. you make no sense. how could a Muslim couple raise their kids neutral? how could any parents raise their kids neutral? you can not prevent your child learning from your doings even if you chose not to talk about your beliefs. being a Muslim is a life style. it is not forcing your religious views on your kids. it is basicly being yourself at home.

besides, seems like you don't know what faith is. you can't force anyone to have faith. nobody can put faith within you. faith is something that grows in the heart of individual. having Muslims parens or having atheist parent can not decide which direction your heart wants to go. i was not born in a religious family. never ever seen someone performing salaat at home. there was only one neighbour who happened to look like Muslim and he was very hateful guy. i remember him quite well. the first thing i learn from religious people was darkness in the eyes of bigot and ignorant people. so? none of this could prevent me from having faith because how i perceive this planet and how i interpret it has nothing to do with what's in this world. maybe someday you realize that if people were given fear and taught to hate even though they have no faith within their hearts, then they turn out to be ignorant, violent and bigot people. that's not called faith, my friend, that's called ideology. as my master says all the time: "There is nothing without love" so you and any other human being who's afraid of Islam should know that you better not expect any love (which by the way, you should not expect to get what you refuse to give) from any human being, religious or non-religious, if they hate creation of God. whoever loves God would naturally love what God has created. and the rest, who hate humans and say they love God; you need to know they only call their own egos "God". you may have heard about shirk, one of the greatest sin in Islam, you should also find out about hidden shirk where one worships his own ego as if it was God. that's what some Muslims do and it has nothing to do with faith. if you have faith, you turn to God, not to world; you search for your own mistakes and sins to be better person, not others; you only try to change your own way of life to be better servant, not others. unfortunately, ideology works as exact opposite way. know the difference, please.


thank you

.

1. My oldest son follows in my footsteps.

My middle boy is an agsnotic.

My youngest son is a Baptist.

Wanna know why?

Because I never told them that they would go to hell for not worshipping, nor was there the threat of sever punishment here on earth for not worshipping. I raised my children to think for themselves and nurtured critical thinking skills in their young minds. Christian (especially YECer) and Muslim parents do not do this.

2. Faith, as in a higher power, is not a natural occurance, it is a learned behavior. Faith can indeed be instilled, trained, especially in a young mind. This is why indoctrination fo the youth is vital to the Abrahamics ongoing existance.

 

[Autodidact]

and you are talking on the behalf of how many people exactly?

.

Millions, apparently.

Stoning: Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia...
A survey carried out in August 2009 found that[14] 83% of Pakistanis believe that adulterers should be stoned. In another survey carried out in 'moderate' Indonesia (at 220 million, the world's most populated Muslim country) it found that "almost half the respondents back stoning as a punishment for adulterers.
[wiki]

Apostasy:
In Islamic law (sharia), the consensus view is that a male apostate must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or converted under duress, for example, due to an imminent danger of being killed. A female apostate must be either executed, according to Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), or imprisoned until she reverts to Islam as advocated by the Sunni Hanafi school and by Shi'a scholars.
[wiki]

Punishing rape victims--I believe we had a long thread with many examples of rape victims being flogged throughout the Muslim world.

Do you deny that these practices are widespread in Muslim countries?

 

[.lava]

People. People who follow Islam, that is.

what am i?
what's my teacher?
what are those who follow the same path and preach peace?
what are those Muslim peacemakers?
what are those who's taught by Imams who say no to injustice?
are we/they not people too?
you are basicly chosing "some" people as representative of entire religion. now tell me, how am i suppose to believe you are being fair? you're not and i must admit, i have expected better of you. i don't know why maybe i liked you but disappointment is nothing new. it is your choice, you'd be respected, so go for it, join blind forces of haters of Islam

.

 

[Autodidact]

what am i?

A Muslim who is sadly in the minority view.

what's my teacher?

Don't know. The same?

what are those who follow the same path and preach peace?

In the minority.

what are those Muslim peacemakers?

Insufficient in number or power.

what are those who's taught by Imams who say no to injustice?

Too quiet.

are we/they not people too?

I apologize that your religion has been hijacked by hate-filled fundamentalists, and urge and support you in taking it back.

you are basicly chosing "some" people as representative of entire religion. now tell me, how am i suppose to believe you are being fair? you're not and i must admit, i have expected better of you. i don't know why maybe i liked you but disappointment is nothing new. it is your choice, you'd be respected, so go for it, join blind forces of haters of Islam

As I cited in my source, the rule that apostates should be killed is the consensus view, the mainstream, accepted view. I would guess that some percentage of those who disagree advocated a lesser punishment. The idea that Muslims should be free to leave their religion with no punishment at all seems to be a small minority.

So, again, the consensus version of Islam cannot be tolerated, because it is itself intolerant.

If you and those like you manage to wrest control of mainstream Islam back from these forces of intolerance, then the rest of the world can once again tolerate Islam.

Or, to put it differently, we can tolerate, accept and welcome your version of Islam. We have no choice but to combat the mainstream version.

How do you think the world should respond to a religion that says if someone leaves it, they should be killed? Remember, that's the consensus view, not a kooky minority--the standard position.

 

[.lava]

Or, to put it differently, we can tolerate, accept and welcome your version of Islam. We have no choice but to combat the mainstream version.

combat? you do as you wish. this is not the first time i come to this point and say this: Islam is my religion, i am a Muslim and i love Islam. if you are willing to fight against Islam, you are not going to find me on your side. just be aware of whom you're fighting against.

thank you

.

 

[Autodidact]

combat? you do as you wish. this is not the first time i come to this point and say this: Islam is my religion, i am a Muslim and i love Islam. if you are willing to fight against Islam, you are not going to find me on your side. just be aware of whom you're fighting against.

thank you

.

Well, what do you think about killing apostates, stoning people to death, executing homosexuals and apostates? Do you think those things--all part of mainstream Islam--should be accepted or combated?

 

[.lava]

Well, what do you think about killing apostates, stoning people to death, executing homosexuals and apostates? Do you think those things--all part of mainstream Islam--should be accepted or combated?

you're seriously asking me that? haven't we met before here and talked about the same issues? no? OK...

1- any kind of injustice should be opposed humanely. you are responding injustice but at the same time you are being injust yourself. i stand against you because of this. you go and ask yourself if i ever made you hate me for it.

2- Western culture is what you are used to. you can not provide Eastern nations help that they need by offering your own standards. if there is something wrong in Muslim nations, it is our job to deal with it. because we will never (NEVER) wish to do anything against Islam. we will never invite Muslims to abandone Islam as you would.

3- i would like to keep this one short as i expect everyone to assume what i am going to say even from the begining...correct your own wrongs, deal with your own injustice among yourselves, deal with your own instead of others. or what? would you welcome the other to come, to combat injustice in your system and to correct your nation by establishing new governments for you? is that the right way? your empathy works that way but it would not work this way?

.

 

[Autodidact]

you're seriously asking me that? haven't we met before here and talked about the same issues? no? OK...

1- any kind of injustice should be opposed humanely. you are responding injustice but at the same time you are being injust yourself.

I am only stating the facts.

i stand against you because of this. you go and ask yourself if i ever made you hate me for it.

I don't hate you, .lava, I admire you. I hate your religion.

2- Western culture is what you are used to. you can not provide Eastern nations help that they need by offering your own standards. if there is something wrong in Muslim nations, it is our job to deal with it. because we will never (NEVER) wish to do anything against Islam. we will never invite Muslims to abandone Islam as you would.

I don't buy that justice, equality, democracy or human rights are western values. I think all people, African, Asian, Middle-Eastern or else deserve the same freedom. Apparently Islam prohibits such freedom, so I am forced to oppose Islam.

If you refuse to take action against a religion that kills people for leaving it, then you are in the wrong.

3- i would like to keep this one short as i expect everyone to assume what i am going to say even from the begining...correct your own wrongs, deal with your own injustice among yourselves, deal with your own instead of others. or what? would you welcome the other to come, to combat injustice in your system and to correct your nation by establishing new governments for you? is that the right way? your empathy works that way but it would not work this way?

In the modern world, we no longer have two separate systems. I live in Colorado. In yesterday's paper appears a story about a woman from Leadville, Colorado who converted to Islam and joined a conspiracy to kill the poor Danish cartoonist. It's in my backyard. There are Muslims everywhere, and a lot of them here in the U.S.

And so we have Islamic terrorists, honor killings and other problems. Muslims don't control the government, so we don't have rape-victim floggings and public execution of homosexuals. As am American, I have no reasonable option but to resist Islamic influence on our government and our justice system, so we never get those things.

We no longer have two worlds; Muslims are all over the world; so the whole world has to contend with Islam.

And I'm sure you don't advocate that we not allow Muslims to immigrate here?

 

[.lava]

I am only stating the facts. I don't hate you, .lava, I admire you. I hate your religion.

my intention was different while asking that question. let me put it this way. in Turkey there are 70 million people and most of them are Muslims. some would not practice Islam but they show great respect to religion and everything about it. some, of course, practicing it as well, some others are great devotees of Islam. except for very little minority, everyone would oppose stoning people to death or killing people who leave Islam. so they would agree with you. but, in case they read your posts they might hate you right away. you might make peaceful Muslims hate you. this is not a gain if you ask me. not that i see hatred as a good respond but we are all ignorant people therefor we have weaknesses and some happened to have weakness about anger.

I don't buy that justice, equality, democracy or human rights are western values. I think all people, African, Asian, Middle-Eastern or else deserve the same freedom. Apparently Islam prohibits such freedom, so I am forced to oppose Islam.

oh..let me try to make point more clear then. it is your personal prejudice believing Islam can not provide same (even better) values. btw is there equality, democracy and justice in USA? i am sorry but i find it very hard to believe that. i would believe Norway or Sweden are the best examples on Earth today but USA, nay

If you refuse to take action against a religion that kills people for leaving it, then you are in the wrong.

action comes from within, my freind. in everything, people have to earn. what kind of action could be taken from outside? if people would not demand justice for themselves, how come you could demand justice for them? though it is done for individuals. there are protests in Turkey when someone gets Recm punishment (stoning). it is just a voice. why would i stand against Islam if i know it for sure applications of Sharia is wrong? why would you expect me to betrayal a path that invites me to be a better person and forbids any negative emotion?

In the modern world, we no longer have two separate systems. I live in Colorado. In yesterday's paper appears a story about a woman from Leadville, Colorado who converted to Islam and joined a conspiracy to kill the poor Danish cartoonist. It's in my backyard. There are Muslims everywhere, and a lot of them here in the U.S.

there is nothing right about it and they are treated as criminals as it should be. there are Americans everywhere if you ask me.

And so we have Islamic terrorists, honor killings and other problems. Muslims don't control the government, so we don't have rape-victim floggings and public execution of homosexuals. As am American, I have no reasonable option but to resist Islamic influence on our government and our justice system, so we never get those things.

We no longer have two worlds; Muslims are all over the world; so the whole world has to contend with Islam.

And I'm sure you don't advocate that we not allow Muslims to immigrate here?

if USA refuse Muslim immigrants i would not feel bad or sorry, no.

i've never experienced this two seperate worlds. there've always been Westerns in my nation and in my life. it was you who were isolated.

i don't wish to say the same things all over again. just remember this; you can't win over ignorance if you fight against Islam. Islam is not the problem and if it really was, you'd have known it ever since you know yourself because Islam the religion was on earth way longer before you

.

 

[Autodidact]

my intention was different while asking that question. let me put it this way. in Turkey there are 70 million people and most of them are Muslims. some would not practice Islam but they show great respect to religion and everything about it. some, of course, practicing it as well, some others are great devotees of Islam. except for very little minority, everyone would oppose stoning people to death or killing people who leave Islam. so they would agree with you. but, in case they read your posts they might hate you right away. you might make peaceful Muslims hate you. this is not a gain if you ask me. not that i see hatred as a good respond but we are all ignorant people therefor we have weaknesses and some happened to have weakness about anger.

Well, I don't know about Turkey, but apparently 78% of Pakistanis support death for apostates. 36% of younger British Muslims believe death to be an appropriate punishment for renouncing Islam.All major schools of Islamic jurisprudence stipulate that a sane adult male must be put to death for abandoning Islam, though varying interpretations persist on whether females should be killed or merely imprisoned. Many Islamic states outlaw apostasy and seven list it as a capital offense. However, freelancers such as angry relatives present the greatest danger to ex-Muslims, as Sunni and Shiite scholars largely agree that Shari'a empowers individuals to punish converts. This tradition has followed Muslims to the Western world. from here. In 2004 Prince Charles convened a conference of Muslim leaders. To his disappointment, the Islamic representatives failed to issue a declaration condemning the practice. The death penalty for apostates is also in the legal code in Iran, Sudan, Mauritania, and the Comoros Islands.

So I have to question your assertion that only a very little minority supports it. If this were true, why is this penalty being carried out, today, in so many Muslim countries.

btw, to the extent this is true, I think we can credit the fact that Turkey is secular, and not Islam. The countries where apostasy is a crime punishable by death are the most Islamic countries, such as Iran.

The more I think about it, the crazier I think it is we're even discussing it! What kind of religion has to have a controversy over whether it's O.K. to murder people?!?

oh..let me try to make point more clear then. it is your personal prejudice believing Islam can not provide same (even better) values.

I don't know what it can do. I only know what it does. What it does is to promote murder, and to carry out murder.

btw is there equality, democracy and justice in USA? i am sorry but i find it very hard to believe that. i would believe Norway or Sweden are the best examples on Earth today but USA, nay

I'd say the U.S.A. is doing well, yes. We don't flog victims of rape. We don't kill people for their religious beliefs. We don't kill people for being gay. I'll defend our record against any Muslim country. I see that the countries you hold up as positive examples are among the least religious, and least Muslim, countries on earth.

action comes from within, my freind. in everything, people have to earn. what kind of action could be taken from outside?

And that's why people like you are the only hope. The only thing non-Muslim countries can do is to keep Muslims out, and that's not really fair, is it, keeping out reasonable Muslims because violent fundamentalists have taken over Islam.

if people would not demand justice for themselves, how come you could demand justice for them?

You're right. It's hopeless. The only thing we can do is fight Islam with all our might. If actual Muslims won't fight for their religion to be humanized, the only thing we can do is resist it.

though it is done for individuals. there are protests in Turkey when someone gets Recm punishment (stoning). it is just a voice. why would i stand against Islam if i know it for sure applications of Sharia is wrong? why would you expect me to betrayal a path that invites me to be a better person and forbids any negative emotion?

How can you call killing someone for their beliefs, or flogging victims of rape, being a better person?

i don't wish to say the same things all over again. just remember this; you can't win over ignorance if you fight against Islam. Islam is not the problem and if it really was, you'd have known it ever since you know yourself because Islam the religion was on earth way longer before you

You keep saying this, but are Buddhists killing people for leaving buddhism? Are atheists killing people for becoming Christian? The only religion that kills people for leaving is Islam. How can Islam NOT be the problem?

 

[aymen amir]

hey AUTO why do you hate ISLAM SO MUCH ??

 

[Autodidact]

hey AUTO why do you hate ISLAM SO MUCH ??

Suicide bombing, killing apostates, flogging rape victims, prohibiting girls from going to school, killing homosexuals, denying women the right to vote...those are just a few of the reasons that come to mind.