Should we fear Islam?

[Snowber]

Is this working? Does anyone have any instances?

This does remind me of my interview with Daisy Kahn, who is one of the most brilliant women I've ever met. She talked about a program to have women educated as scholars, so that they would be able to speak with authority on these issues.

I am just saying in general, someone may grow up with the true meaning of Islam rather than having had taken an extremist view in ignorance.

 

[England my lionheart]

i didn't ask for a case of a rape victim being punished, i asked for the islamic law that says to punish the rape victim. i can post such cases myself.

Which version Esalam,obviously from whats happening in Islamist Countries there is no consensus on the correct version,however Sharia hadd punishments are cruel and shameful so at least they all share that.

 

[Composer]

I am just saying in general, someone may grow up with the true meaning of Islam rather than having had taken an extremist view in ignorance.

Why does the alleged true Islam contain violence against its own women?

004.034
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

So beat women until they submit and obey their male masters says the Qur'an! (apparently that isn't counted by some as aggression, hmm?)

 

[Gharib]

Which version Esalam,obviously from whats happening in Islamist Countries there is no consensus on the correct version,however Sharia hadd punishments are cruel and shameful so at least they all share that.

right so you knowingly made false accusations about islamic laws. thats all you had to say.

 

[Gharib]

Why does the alleged true Islam contain violence against its own women?

004.034
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

So beat women until they submit and obey their male masters says the Qur'an! (apparently that isn't counted by some as aggression, hmm?)

of course the word "beat" is mentioned so we can beat them to death if we want to, it dosn't say we ca't beat them to death. it just says "beat" what if it contained the word "kill" that means kill everyone right, because the word "kill" is mentioned.

 

[England my lionheart]

please post the islmaic law that says the rape victim must be "flogged"

which suicide bombing. the one where only soldiers who are armed are targeted with no civilian casualties or the suicide bombings where civilians are specifically targeted?

please post the islamic law that says girls must not go to school. i can post hadith contrary to this view.

palso please post the islamic law that says women are not allowed to vote.

now from our recent discussion i think i explained to you that Pakistan, saudi arabia, egypt, iran etc etc do not represent the islmaic nation that Muhammed (saws) once built. so don' post what the laws of saudi arabia, nor those of pakistan, nor those of iraq etc etc, but the actuall islamic law and a link to it also.

This is the problem for what is called Islam IMO,you say it does'nt represent the Islamic nation that Muhammed built yet it is touted that Islam has 1.5 billion followers and the fastest growing religion.
Heres the problem,they are all following in different directions,work that one out,from a book that was sent down that is clear and without error,yet these people in Saudi etc would say that you have got it wrong,that you do not represent real Islam that you are misguided yet who is there who can tell them otherwise? nobody.

Heres the other problem IMO the Ahadiths that contradict the Qur'an,which ones are true or false are disputed with no consensus on any,there will always be a problem because of these except for Qur'an alone Muslims of course.

 

[Gharib]

This is the problem for what is called Islam IMO,you say it does'nt represent the Islamic nation that Muhammed built yet it is touted that Islam has 1.5 billion followers and the fastest growing religion.
Heres the problem,they are all following in different directions,work that one out,from a book that was sent down that is clear and without error,yet these people in Saudi etc would say that you have got it wrong,that you do not represent real Islam that you are misguided yet who is there who can tell them otherwise? nobody.

Heres the other problem IMO the Ahadiths that contradict the Qur'an,which ones are true or false are disputed with no consensus on any,there will always be a problem because of these except for Qur'an alone Muslims of course.

you've missunderstood. i said the muslim majority countries do not represent the golden nation of islam that Muhammed (saws) built and completed in his life time, ii was not speaking about individual people, i was speaking about the soposed "islamic coutries" which do NOT represent Muhammeds nation

 

[England my lionheart]

you've missunderstood. i said the muslim majority countries do not represent the golden nation of islam that Muhammed (saws) built and completed in his life time, ii was not speaking about individual people, i was speaking about the soposed "islamic coutries" which do NOT represent Muhammeds nation

OK Esalam but they will say they do represent true Islam

 

[Gharib]

OK Esalam but they will say they do represent true Islam

so lets back up a few posts, you do not have any actual evidence of the islamic law that says "KILL THE RAPE VICTIM" right? while all along you were just having a good time posting it.

who will say they represent the true islam?

 

[Caladan]

Strongest believers on the face of the earth? Of course my friend, ignorance + desperation may lead to anything. I'm sure they wont accept my interpretation of the Qu'ran, but if you are not agreeing with it personally please show me why their interpretation is the truth and then we can focus on that matter specifically.

Of course, instead we should fight their reasoning with true knowledge of the Scripture.

If you are implying that moderate Islam should be promoted, I may agree. is there a strong movement within the Muslim world to promote a moderate standard version of Islam over radical versions? when there is, in what places and societies can we see this?

 

[Composer]

of course the word "beat" is mentioned so we can beat them to death if we want to, it dosn't say we ca't beat them to death. it just says "beat"

i) What makes you believe you are superior to women and have the right to exert physical violence and harm against them?

ii) Why would a decent person ever want to even consider that let alone do it?

iii) How do you decide the level of beating a woman requires?

Is it dictated by her size? (i.e. small woman small bashing and bigger woman a bigger bashing?) / Other criteria?

Or perhaps her bashing according to the alleged level of disobedience to the husbands demands?

Where does she appeal first before getting beaten to ensure she deserves it and who makes the decisions women deserve getting beaten at all?

Does the husband or male get beaten if her appeal is upheld?

Can the woman get another Male to beat the husband if he fails to obey the woman?

what if it contained the word "kill" that means kill everyone right, because the word "kill" is mentioned.

I am here referring to the belief you seem to uphold that your women should be bashed and beaten.

Does it say ' kill? '

Not that I see but obviously you would do so if it did.

 

[England my lionheart]

so lets back up a few posts, you do not have any actual evidence of the islamic law that says "KILL THE RAPE VICTIM" right? while all along you were just having a good time posting it.

OK Esalam,there are many cases in which Women are Gang Raped in Pakistan,if you want me too i'll post them for you,Sharia Law states that there must be four witnesses to the said Rape,true?,OK the Woman who has been Raped needs these four witnesses to carry out a successful prosecution against the perpertrators,given that She has been gang Raped She is already at a disadvantage,given that her testimony is worth half that of a Man She is further at a disadvantage.

Now if said Woman reports the Rape and She loses the case She is punished for adultery which can mean stoning to death.

who will say they represent the true islam?

Ah Esalam thats easy,Qutb puts it this way:

"not that they believe in other Deities besides God or that they worship anyone other that God,but that their way of life is not based on submission to God alone.
Although they believe in the unity of God,still they have relegated the legislative attribute of God to others and submit to this authority.

 

[Composer]

Oops!
You might have meant to say as she requires 4 witnesses to her rape then her testimony is only worth 25% of a man not 50%.

Cheers!

 

[Gharib]

i) What makes you believe you are superior to women and have the right to exert physical violence and harm against them?

ii) Why would a decent person ever want to even consider that let alone do it?

iii) How do you decide the level of beating a woman requires?

Is it dictated by her size? (i.e. small woman small bashing and bigger woman a bigger bashing?) / Other criteria?

Or perhaps her bashing according to the alleged level of disobedience to the husbands demands?

Where does she appeal first before getting beaten to ensure she deserves it and who makes the decisions women deserve getting beaten at all?

Does the husband or male get beaten if her appeal is upheld?

Can the woman get another Male to beat the husband if he fails to obey the woman?


I am here referring to the belief you seem to uphold that your women should be bashed and beaten.

Does it say ' kill? '

Not that I see but obviously you would do so if it did.

i really don't want to say much, so read the article at the link below and then tell me what you don't understand:


[SIZE=+1]A Commentary on The Qur'an 4:34[/SIZE]

 

[Gharib]

Ah Esalam thats easy,Qutb puts it this way:

"not that they believe in other Deities besides God or that they worship anyone other that God,but that their way of life is not based on submission to God alone.
Although they believe in the unity of God,still they have relegated the legislative attribute of God to others and submit to this authority.

Oops!
You might have meant to say as she requires 4 witnesses to her rape then her testimony is only worth 25% of a man not 50%.

Cheers!

again let me know if you 2 fail to understand anything from the link below, it may come as a blow for both of you.

Does Islam require four witnesses for rape?

 

[England my lionheart]

again let me know if you 2 fail to understand anything from the link below, it may come as a blow for both of you.

Does Islam require four witnesses for rape?

Does'nt come as a blow to me Esalam but i suspect it does for the Women who are Raped in Pakistan

 

[Gharib]

Does'nt come as a blow to me Esalam but i suspect it does for the Women who are Raped in Pakistan

may Allah save them.

so now you understand the correct islamic law concerning rape right?

 

[England my lionheart]

may Allah save them.

so now you understand the correct islamic law concerning rape right?

I would agree that your understanding is better than the Islamist States Esalam,this may also be of interest:

Human Rights in Pakistan
Constitutionally Sanctioned Gender Oppression
In a 6 June, 2002 story (released by the Chinese Press Agency, Xinhua), the Shanghai Star carried the headline: "Pakistani mother vows to defend raped daughter", and reported that Shiraka Bibi's daughter Zafran was languishing on death row with her young baby, born after the result of being repeatedly raped by her brother-in-law. According to the report, Zafran was married to Naimat Khan (jailed for life for murder in 1992) in an arranged marriage 13 years ago. Zafran then became the victim of repeated sexual abuse by her brother-in-law. But the law offered her no protection, as she was unable to prove rape by producing the required four male witnesses, and was instead found guilty of adultery. No action has been taken against her alleged attacker and Zafran has appealed her conviction in the federal Shariah court, the highest Islamic court. If Zafran loses her appeal, she will be stoned to death under the Islamic Hadud ordinance.
This case poignantly illustrates the extreme injustice born my women in Pakistan. Under the Islamic laws introduced by former military dictator General Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq in 1979, the responsibility of proving rape rests with the victim (which incredulously requires the testimony of four male witnesses), otherwise she will be punished for adultery. "How is it possible for a woman to bring four witnesses to prove that she has been raped?" asks Aneesa Zeb, a women's rights activist and lawyer in the northwestern city of Peshawar. In fact, if a man rapes a woman in the presence of several women, he cannot be convicted under the Hudood Ordinances because women are not permitted to testify. Similarly, if a Muslim man rapes a Parsi, Hindu or Christian woman in the presence of other (Parsi, Hindu or Christian) men and women, he cannot be convicted because non-Muslim witnesses cannot testify.
Since all consensual extramarital sexual relations are considered violations of the Hudood Ordinances, if a woman cannot prove the absence of consent (i.e. rape or sexual abuse), there is the danger that she may be charged with a violation of the Hudood ordinances for fornication or adultery, for which the maximum punishment is public flogging or death by stoning.
Commenting on Zafran's plight, Afrasiab Khattak (of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) said: "Zafran Bibi's case is not the first and the last one under this law and more Zafran Bibis will suffer as long as this law remains on the statute book". She went on to note how because of such laws, "Men are often bailed out and if the women are complainants, they are turned into accused" . In its recent 2001 report, the independent HRCP estimates that one woman in Pakistan is raped every two hours, but most sexual assaults go unreported because of the impossibility of being able to prove the charges. In the country's most populous province of Punjab, the HRCP states that one woman is raped every six hours and a woman gang-raped every fourth day, yet only 321 cases were reported to police in the previous year.
Even some police officials admit that in a majority of rape cases the victims are pressured to drop rape charges because of the threat of Hudood adultery charges being brought against them. This allows rape, (and gang rape in particular), to be commonly used as a means of social control by landlords and local criminal bosses seeking to humiliate and terrorize local residents. The police rarely respond to such attacks, and may even participate in them.
According to the Commission of Inquiry for Women, laws on adultery and rape have been subject to widespread misuse, with 95 percent of the women accused of adultery being found innocent either in the court of first instance or on appeal. However, by that time, the woman may have spent months in jail, suffering sexual abuse at the hands of the police, and the destruction of her reputation. The Commission found that the main victims of the Hudood laws are poor women who are unable to defend themselves against slanderous charges. The laws also have been used by husbands and other male family members to punish their wives and female relatives for reasons having nothing to do with sexual propriety.
As many as 40-50% of the women in jails in cities like Lahore, Peshawar, and Mardan await trial for adultery, but according to some human rights monitors, 80 percent of all adultery-related Hudood cases are filed without any supporting evidence. But even when acquitted, the trauma for the woman may not end, because they then become vulnerable to attack for a so-called "honour killing", where male relatives murder women they accuse of immoral behaviour. According to human rights observers, honour killings are rampant in Pakistan's feudal-dominated rural and tribal areas - a 1998 HRCP report citing 1,600 cases of such killings in that year.

 

[Autodidact]

i didn't ask for a case of a rape victim being punished, i asked for the islamic law that says to punish the rape victim. i can post such cases myself.

This is a discussion to have with other Muslims. It is not up to us to figure out what "Islamic Law" is or says. Our concern is with how that law is interpreted and applied by actual Muslims in the real world. And actual Muslims in the actual world applying whatever they think Muslim law is, actually punish actual victims of rape.

No coincidence, the result is that Muslim men are free to rape whomever they wish with no fear of punishment. Also no coincidence, Islam is a male-dominated, patriarchal religion in which women do not have equal rights.

 

[Autodidact]

you've missunderstood. i said the muslim majority countries do not represent the golden nation of islam that Muhammed (saws) built and completed in his life time, ii was not speaking about individual people, i was speaking about the soposed "islamic coutries" which do NOT represent Muhammeds nation

Well, if we ever get that golden nation of Islam, we'll discuss it. Meanwhile we have the actual practice of actual Islam, which, to go back to the OP, yes, we need to fear. A lot.