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Should we fear Islam?

Ba'al

Active Member
Well, if we ever get that golden nation of Islam, we'll discuss it. Meanwhile we have the actual practice of actual Islam, which, to go back to the OP, yes, we need to fear. A lot.

Autodidact, really. All your posts going back about 5 pages are statements you think about Islam, yet you provide no sources to back up your claims. The "actual practice of Islam" is what's stated in the quran. If you spent as much time reading it as you do posting rubbish you think is in it you would be an expert and there would be no need to discuss it. Now, America is considered a Christian nation by the Middle East. Should they blame Christianity for all the inhumanity that goes on here? As many have posted before, the quran is not strictly followed by most supposed Islamic countries.
 

TheTraveller

Ancient Soul
This is my first post. As far as I know, Osama was a agent for the CIA for seven years before he was sent to the middle east to lead the Taliban, The CIA trained the Taliban in guerilla warfare and gave them the weaponry. I am busy reading the Qu'ran and I know many Islamists, who believe in peace and the love of Jesus/Issa. I think that the situation in the middle east is being controlled by the U.S government to have control over the oil, since the bush family has been involved in the oil industry for many years with the Hussein family. Funny looking at the photo's of a young bush Jr. and young Saddam standing next to each other as child hood "friends". There is alot of conspiracy surrounding all of this it seems.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Autodidact, really. All your posts going back about 5 pages are statements you think about Islam, yet you provide no sources to back up your claims. The "actual practice of Islam" is what's stated in the quran. If you spent as much time reading it as you do posting rubbish you think is in it you would be an expert and there would be no need to discuss it. Now, America is considered a Christian nation by the Middle East. Should they blame Christianity for all the inhumanity that goes on here? As many have posted before, the quran is not strictly followed by most supposed Islamic countries.
If you ever question or doubt any factual assertion I make I am more than happy to provide support for the source.

But no, it has nothing to do with what's in the qur'an. What I'm focusing on is on what actual Muslims do in the name of Islam as they interpret it. When the guy next to you is wearing a suicide bomb and yelling "Allah Akbar" as he detonates it, it makes no difference what the qur'an says; you're just as dead. What matters is not True Islam (if there is any such thing), but what Muslims believe Islam is. That's what we fear, for good reason.

Yes, I think Christianity, as actually practices by actual Christians in the U.S., is responsible for a lot of bad things that happen here, and I am more than happy to blame it for them. For example, Christianity--right-wing, evangelical, fundamentalist Christianity--contributed to George Bush getting elected, which led to the U.S. invading Iraq, killing thousands of Muslims. Christianity has a LOT to answer for.

So does Islam.
 

Composer

Member
Indeed Islam is a violent, unjust, patriarchal and hypocrytical belief system to be greatly feared.

Christianity ' so called ' I also agree has a lot to answer for and I have more respect for most atheists than christians.

Is it also true that ALL non-Muslems are considered as ' Infidels / lower than a dog? '
 
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Ba'al

Active Member
Indeed Islam is a violent, unjust, patriarchal and hypocrytical belief system to be greatly feared.

Christianity ' so called ' I also agree has a lot to answer for and I have more respect for most atheists than christians.

Is it also true that ALL non-Muslems are considered as ' Infidels / lower than a dog? '

No. Looks like you've been to an anti-islamic website and your 1st statement is complete nonsense.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I would agree that your understanding is better than the Islamist States Esalam,this may also be of interest:

Human Rights in Pakistan
Constitutionally Sanctioned Gender Oppression
In a 6 June, 2002 story (released by the Chinese Press Agency, Xinhua), the Shanghai Star carried the headline: "Pakistani mother vows to defend raped daughter", and reported that Shiraka Bibi's daughter Zafran was languishing on death row with her young baby, born after the result of being repeatedly raped by her brother-in-law. According to the report, Zafran was married to Naimat Khan (jailed for life for murder in 1992) in an arranged marriage 13 years ago. Zafran then became the victim of repeated sexual abuse by her brother-in-law. But the law offered her no protection, as she was unable to prove rape by producing the required four male witnesses, and was instead found guilty of adultery. No action has been taken against her alleged attacker and Zafran has appealed her conviction in the federal Shariah court, the highest Islamic court. If Zafran loses her appeal, she will be stoned to death under the Islamic Hadud ordinance.
This case poignantly illustrates the extreme injustice born my women in Pakistan. Under the Islamic laws introduced by former military dictator General Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq in 1979, the responsibility of proving rape rests with the victim (which incredulously requires the testimony of four male witnesses), otherwise she will be punished for adultery. "How is it possible for a woman to bring four witnesses to prove that she has been raped?" asks Aneesa Zeb, a women's rights activist and lawyer in the northwestern city of Peshawar. In fact, if a man rapes a woman in the presence of several women, he cannot be convicted under the Hudood Ordinances because women are not permitted to testify. Similarly, if a Muslim man rapes a Parsi, Hindu or Christian woman in the presence of other (Parsi, Hindu or Christian) men and women, he cannot be convicted because non-Muslim witnesses cannot testify.
Since all consensual extramarital sexual relations are considered violations of the Hudood Ordinances, if a woman cannot prove the absence of consent (i.e. rape or sexual abuse), there is the danger that she may be charged with a violation of the Hudood ordinances for fornication or adultery, for which the maximum punishment is public flogging or death by stoning.
Commenting on Zafran's plight, Afrasiab Khattak (of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) said: "Zafran Bibi's case is not the first and the last one under this law and more Zafran Bibis will suffer as long as this law remains on the statute book". She went on to note how because of such laws, "Men are often bailed out and if the women are complainants, they are turned into accused" . In its recent 2001 report, the independent HRCP estimates that one woman in Pakistan is raped every two hours, but most sexual assaults go unreported because of the impossibility of being able to prove the charges. In the country's most populous province of Punjab, the HRCP states that one woman is raped every six hours and a woman gang-raped every fourth day, yet only 321 cases were reported to police in the previous year.
Even some police officials admit that in a majority of rape cases the victims are pressured to drop rape charges because of the threat of Hudood adultery charges being brought against them. This allows rape, (and gang rape in particular), to be commonly used as a means of social control by landlords and local criminal bosses seeking to humiliate and terrorize local residents. The police rarely respond to such attacks, and may even participate in them.
According to the Commission of Inquiry for Women, laws on adultery and rape have been subject to widespread misuse, with 95 percent of the women accused of adultery being found innocent either in the court of first instance or on appeal. However, by that time, the woman may have spent months in jail, suffering sexual abuse at the hands of the police, and the destruction of her reputation. The Commission found that the main victims of the Hudood laws are poor women who are unable to defend themselves against slanderous charges. The laws also have been used by husbands and other male family members to punish their wives and female relatives for reasons having nothing to do with sexual propriety.
As many as 40-50% of the women in jails in cities like Lahore, Peshawar, and Mardan await trial for adultery, but according to some human rights monitors, 80 percent of all adultery-related Hudood cases are filed without any supporting evidence. But even when acquitted, the trauma for the woman may not end, because they then become vulnerable to attack for a so-called "honour killing", where male relatives murder women they accuse of immoral behaviour. According to human rights observers, honour killings are rampant in Pakistan's feudal-dominated rural and tribal areas - a 1998 HRCP report citing 1,600 cases of such killings in that year.

ignorance and oppression, those people will be brought into account for that. it is very unfortunate that these things are happening.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
This is a discussion to have with other Muslims. It is not up to us to figure out what "Islamic Law" is or says. Our concern is with how that law is interpreted and applied by actual Muslims in the real world. And actual Muslims in the actual world applying whatever they think Muslim law is, actually punish actual victims of rape.

of course, it's the muslims to blame once again. if you non-muslims weren't so willfuly ignorant and asked about the correct laws rather than make a big deal out of something that has nothing to do with islam then muslims like myself would not have to shove your arguments right back into your faces. how stupid does one need to be to actually believe that stuff like this is what islam teaches?

No coincidence, the result is that Muslim men are free to rape whomever they wish with no fear of punishment. Also no coincidence, Islam is a male-dominated, patriarchal religion in which women do not have equal rights.

you didn't answer my questions in the other post, affraid that you may be wrong?

see more willful ignorance. i just posted a damn article explaining that if a woman said she was raped then the man had to get the witnesses. where in the bloody world did you get the idea that are free to rape women in islam?? please post your source that says this.

please post the evidence that says islam is a male-dominant religion.

also post the evidence that says women are not equal to men.

and please stop dodging my questions, asnwer them if you are truthful win what you are saying.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
This is my first post. As far as I know, Osama was a agent for the CIA for seven years before he was sent to the middle east to lead the Taliban, The CIA trained the Taliban in guerilla warfare and gave them the weaponry. I am busy reading the Qu'ran and I know many Islamists, who believe in peace and the love of Jesus/Issa. I think that the situation in the middle east is being controlled by the U.S government to have control over the oil, since the bush family has been involved in the oil industry for many years with the Hussein family. Funny looking at the photo's of a young bush Jr. and young Saddam standing next to each other as child hood "friends". There is alot of conspiracy surrounding all of this it seems.

you bet there is. the whole thing was planned.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Indeed Islam is a violent, unjust, patriarchal and hypocrytical belief system to be greatly feared.

you seem like an educated extremist from they way you post.


Is it also true that ALL non-Muslems are considered as ' Infidels / lower than a dog? '

an infidel means a non-believer, a kafir. same thing. doesn't mean a dog.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
please post the evidence that says islam is a male-dominant religion.

also post the evidence that says women are not equal to men.

yes, Islam is not male dominated at all. it is God dominated and God is not human [edit:] let alone being male. but woman and man are not equal. not even two men are equal. Qur'an says men are one degree above women though that's not to say men own women. they have different natures. there is a reason why it is only men who go to battle field and not women. it's always been men who died for us, for their people; not women. sure there is bunch of women who's heroines and there's a bunch of men who'd probably pee themselves in battle field but in general you can't expect women to go and die for us and in general you don't expect men to run away from facing death for goodness of their people and let their people being raped, killed and enslaved. i know i won't. so being a degree above women is not a luxury. it is a burden, it is a test matter and it holds great responsibility by all means which means if he fails, he fails very badly

.
 
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Gharib

I want Khilafah back
yes, Islam is not male dominated at all. it is God dominated and God is not human despite being male.

Allah does not have a gender.

but woman and man are not equal. not even two men are equal. Qur'an says men are one degree above women though that's not to say men own women. they have different natures. there is a reason why it is only men who go to battle field and not women. it's always been men who died for us, for their people; not women. sure there is bunch of women who's heroines and there's a bunch of men who'd probably pee themselves in battle field but in general you can't expect women to go and die for us and in general you don't expect men to run away from facing death for goodness of their people and let their people being raped, killed and enslaved. i know i won't. so being a degree above women is not a luxury. it is a burden, it is a test matter and it holds great responsibility by all means which means if he fails, he fails very badly

they are equal (thats what the quran says) but in their own different ways. that "different ways" explains what you have just said. men are not preffered over women and vice versa.

i will post a link for you to read .lava. the quran does not say men are one degree higher, unless you are not speaking about the verse i am thinking of? which verse says that?
 

.lava

Veteran Member
.lava read whats in the link below, i think you were reffering to that verse unless i'm wrong.

A Commentary on The Qur'an 4:34

no my dear friend, that's not the verse i am referring to.

2:228 And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

btw, you say God has a gender. it is very weird to hear a Muslim make this claim. what makes you say that?

.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
no my dear friend, that's not the verse i am referring to.

2:228 And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

i will look into that, thank you for posting it.


btw, you say God has a gender. it is very weird to hear a Muslim make this claim. what makes you say that?

.

you said god has a gender not me.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
.lava read whats in the link below, i think you were reffering to that verse unless i'm wrong.

A Commentary on The Qur'an 4:34

yes, many times i discussed about that verse. i don't understand people. any married couple can chose to divorce. your wife cheats on you, fools you and remains in marriage with you. i think it is strange. people should not get married if they accept their own desires more important than happiness of their families

.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
you said god has a gender not me.

did i?

God is not human despite being male....that's what i've said. i wonder if i got meaning of despite wrong. i'd check it out
sorry for misunderstanding and i thought you're claiming God to have a gender lol

.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
ignorance and oppression, those people will be brought into account for that. it is very unfortunate that these things are happening.

Yes, it is indeed unfortunate that these countries have decided to govern themselves by Sharia law, and so retreated into backward, oppressive injustice.

Other than fighting against imposition of Sharia law, eselam, how do you propose we prevent this problem from spreading?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Yes, it is indeed unfortunate that these countries have decided to govern themselves by Sharia law, and so retreated into backward, oppressive injustice.

Other than fighting against imposition of Sharia law, eselam, how do you propose we prevent this problem from spreading?

the only way to prevent this problem is to unite the muslims and have our caliph, but then thats the start of world war 3. so i have to blame these first world countries once more for not letting us have our own government without bloodshed.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
of course, it's the muslims to blame once again.
Exactly. When Muslims commit actions in the name of Islam, it's the muslims to blame.
if you non-muslims weren't so willfuly ignorant and asked about the correct laws rather than make a big deal out of something that has nothing to do with islam then muslims like myself would not have to shove your arguments right back into your faces. how stupid does one need to be to actually believe that stuff like this is what islam teaches?
I don't know, ask the millions of your brother and sister Muslims who do so. I have no opinion on the subject, which is not my business. What I do know is that they are perpetrating injustice, oppression and violence as Muslims in the name of their religion.

you didn't answer my questions in the other post, affraid that you may be wrong?
The answer is: none of my business. It's not up to me, a non-Muslim, to tell Muslims what their religion teaches. That's up to Muslims to decide. Unfortunately, millions of them have decided that it teaches violent repression of women, suicide bombing, terrorism, inequality and patriarchal rule.
see more willful ignorance. i just posted a damn article explaining that if a woman said she was raped then the man had to get the witnesses. where in the bloody world did you get the idea that are free to rape women in islam?? please post your source that says this.
O.K. We've posted source after story after report of women being raped and then imprisoned, flogged or stoned for having the temerity to report it. Obviously, if women are afraid to report being raped, then the rapists get away with rape with impunity. What a surprise! A male-dominated religion that facilitates rape. No coincidence there.

please post the evidence that says islam is a male-dominant religion.
Are you joking? Wow, I hardly know where to begin. It's probably the most patriarchal religion currently practiced in the world. It would take volumes to articualr the completely male-dominated religion that is contemporary Islam, the inequality between the sexes, denial of women's right to vote, drive, and dress freely, male clerics, honor killing, inability or unwillingness to punish rape, female genital mutilation, unequal marriage law, killing girls for daring to exercise their human rights, denial of equal education to girls, denying the right to travel or, in extreme cases, to leave the home without a male relative...there's not enough space to list it all. I can hardly imagine a more male-dominant system than Islam as currently practiced in most Muslim countries. Are you with a straight face trying to assert that women in Saudia Arabia, Iran, Yemen or Afghanistan enjoy equal rights?

burka.jpg


woman.bmp


iran_stoning.gif


also post the evidence that says women are not equal to men.
I can't even take this seriously. It's ridiculous. You don't even advocate female equality, do you?

Do you believe women should be allowed to have up to four husbands?

Do you think women should be able to travel freely, wherever they like, alone, wearing whatever they like?

Do you think women should be allowed to serve as Imams and lead services in your mosque?

Should women have the right to divorce their husbands, and have custody of their children?

and please stop dodging my questions, asnwer them if you are truthful win what you are saying.

If you like I'll post 20 pages of news stories about sexism in Islam.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
the only way to prevent this problem is to unite the muslims and have our caliph, but then thats the start of world war 3. so i have to blame these first world countries once more for not letting us have our own government without bloodshed.

But when you do have your own governments, what happens is oppression of women, codification of injustice, flogging victims, killing homosexuals, and exporting terrorism. Sounds like a bad idea to me.
 
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