Should we fear Islam?

[Gharib]

It's not that every Muslim country practices every one of these atrocities. .lava is fortunate enough to live in a secular country, where Sharia does not form the basis for the laws. To the extent that it does in other countries, you get more of this oppression, discrimination and injustice.

.lava: Do you disagree that in the most predominantly Muslim countries where the law is based on Sharia, women are denied these rights?

can you please stop with this drivel already?

you just don't get it do you? read your posts and read my replies to them. maybe you will learn something about yourself.

 

[McBell]

another anti-islamist with personal issues against islam.

I have to ask...
What is your story when a Muslim disagrees with you?
I mean, are they also "another anti-islamist with personal issues against islam"?

 

[Gharib]

I have to ask...
What is your story when a Muslim disagrees with you?
I mean, are they also "another anti-islamist with personal issues against islam"?

that has nothing to do with this. if 2 muslims dissagree then one of them is wrong, that said once the one in the wrong is corrected, he will stick to the right perspective, not go on and on with the same incorrect view that they had even though they were corrected.

a non-muslim on the other hand (not all non-muslims) if he was to be corrected on a wrong interpretation or understanding, they continue to post the same rubish post after post, thread after thread. just read Autodidacts posts go as far back as about 10 pages.

 

[Composer]

posting the same crap everywehre we go are we?

And your alleged legitimate evidence to attempt to refute those historical facts is?

here's a random idea, why don't you ask muslims how true that sutff really is and whether it actually is true at all.

You and many many before you have had numerous opportunities to attempt to refute those facts and so far all we have seen is your respective empty and groundless denials.

see one of your biggest faults is that you 'assume' things are the way you see it or the way they appear to be. another anti-islamist with personal issues against islam.

As I have said many times, historical records by historians need to be legitimately refuted and legitimate evidence given to show why their records state the opposite?

Already here I have witnessed the dishonest linguistic Islamic attempts to deny that ' beat ' women doesn't mean what it says? So from personal experience here already my ' asking a Muslem ' doesn't mean I will nor have I received a truthful answer.


More so-

Here is what the Qur’an and Bukhari Hadith say about Mohammed. In Sura 40:55 and 48:1-2 Allah tells Mohammed to ask forgiveness for his sin (or frailty.)
Now people do not need forgiveness for physical frailties, but for moral ones.
Sahih Muslim vol.1 book 4 ch.268 no.1695 p.373 says Mohammed prayed, "I wronged myself and make a confession of my sin. Forgive all my sins,…" Bukhari vol.1 book 2 ch.13 no.19 p.23, vol.1.12.57 no.781 p.434; vol.6 .60.3 no.3 p.4; vol.8.75.3 no.319 p.213, and vol.8.75.62 prior to no.407 p.271 prior also mention Mohammed’s sins. Specific things mentioned in the Bukhari vol.1.4.70 no.234 p.147-148; Bukhari vol.8.82.1 no.794,795 p.520 are amputating people’s arms and legs, burning out their eyes, and making them thirst as they died after their limbs were cut off. See Bukhari vol.8.82.3 no.796, ch.4 p.797; Bukhari vol.6 ch.150 prior to no.198 p.158-159, as well as Fiqh us-Sunnah vol.1 p.133. (Source: Muslimhope.com)

It is also interesting to note that Muslems have a belief in the story book Jesus and they refer to him as Jesus (pbuh).

Now I don't believe in the story book Jesus but because Muslems claim they do, listen to what your Jesus (pbuh) says and doesn't say -

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. ((John 14: 6) KJV story book, so 'what other way' are you suggesting?

Did you notice the Jesus(pbuh) that YOU claim to believe, DID NOT suggest 'Mohammed is the way also?'

So according to the Jesus YOU Muslems claim to believe, Mohammed is NOT the way!

So do you believe your Jesus (pbuh) or not?

 

[Autodidact]

can you please stop with this drivel already?

you just don't get it do you? read your posts and read my replies to them. maybe you will learn something about yourself.

It's not about me, eselam, it's about the truth. If my statements are false, it should be easy for you to refute them.

Women [in Saudi Arabia] must be fully covered with black veils and are segregated from the males in society, having separate entrances and isolated areas within temples or places of business. They are not allowed to drive cars, may not travel in or out of Saudi Arabian cities without a designated male guardian, are not allowed to vote, must get the approval of their husband for nearly everything, are almost never allowed to be employed, and are denied the ability to represent themselves in a courts system that already regards women as inferior.
Do you deny this?

Yemen:
Yemen's Personal Status Law in particular, which covers matters of marriage, divorce, child custody and inheritance, gives women fewer rights than men, excludes women from decision making, and deprives them of access to, and control over, resources and assets. The right to divorce is not given to women equally. It is far more difficult for a woman to divorce a man. A man may divorce a woman at will. While a man may divorce without justifying his action in court, a woman must present adequate justification. Women face many practical, social, and financial negative considerations in divorce procedure.[4]
The minimum marriage age has been abolished, and in practice, marriages are consummated when the bride is as young as nine years old. This is deeply associated with cultural tradition and the virginity and moral virtue of girls in the society. Also, an unmarried girl is considered to be a nuisance and an economic burden for her family. However, pregnancy at early age, when a girl's body has not fully developed, increases the likelihood of miscarriage or other maternal complications. Early marriage also stops girls' education, which leads to low female enrolment rates and one of the largest education gaps between boys and girls in the world.
Women's access to maternal health care is severely restricted. In most cases, husbands decide women's fertility. It is hard for women to obtain contraception, or to take operation for treatment without a husband's permission. Yemen's high child mortality rate and the fourth fastest growing population in the world are attributed to a lack of women's decision-making in their pregnancy and access to healthcare services.[5]
Women are vulnerable to sexual assault by prison guards, and there is a lower, if any, punishment for violence against women than men.[3] The law stipulates protection women from domestic violence, but in fact there are few protections for women who suffer from domestic violence and no systematic investigation of such occurrences has been conducted. Spousal abuse or domestic violence is not generally reported to the police because of social norms and customs, meaning that women remain silent under these abuses.
[wiki]

Is this false?

Sudan:
In 1983, an Islamic party came to power and quickly enforced the Islamic Sharia law across the country (including the non-Muslim population), often with the effect of re-instating discriminatory practices. The Family Code was revised to respect strictly provisions of Sharia and several measures reduced civil liberties of women....Women in Sudan have a very low level of legal protection in relation to family matters... early marriage appears to be widespread.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Yemen#cite_note-5...In accordance with Islamic Sharia law, polygamy is legal in Sudan as is repudiation. Divorce proceedings discriminate against women in that wives have the right to file for divorce but have a much more difficult time obtaining one. Moreover, women almost never exercise this right because initiating divorce is considered a dreadful disgrace for their families...By law, parental authority is granted solely to fathers. In the event of divorce, young children usually remain with their mothers, but custody automatically reverts to fathers when sons reach the age of 6 years and daughters reach 8 years...Daughters, for example, typically inherit half as much as sons...Women in Sudan have a very low level of protection for their physical integrity. To date, there are no specific laws prohibiting violence against women, including domestic violence, which is common. Women who file claims are subject to accusations of lying, and the police normally do not intervene...Female genital mutilation (FGM) is widespread in Sudan: according to the news agency AFROL, about 90 per cent of female have undergone FGM in its most severe form (that is, infibulation)...Women in Sudan have virtually no legal right to ownership...Similarly, women have no access to bank loans; access to all forms of credit is reserved only for men...On public buses, women must stand separately in the back.
from here.

Is this false?

In Iran, a woman can still receive 74 lashes for going out in public without a Hijab. Do you deny it?

In Algeria, women cannot marry without the consent of their guardians (who are always male)...The Family Code states quite clearly that men and women are not equals within a marriage: “The duty of the wife is to obey her husband”. Moreover, as parental authority is given only to fathers, husbands make all decisions regarding joint matters, especially those concerning finances and the education of children. The code also states that wives are minors under the authority of their husbands and must stay at home...violence against women is evident in numerous forms in Algeria, and there is little in the way of legal instruments to protect women from it in their private or professional lives. Domestic violence and spousal rape are not considered crimes, nor does such violence constitute grounds for divorce.

Do you disagree with any of these facts?

It's not about my emotional reaction, eselam, it's about the facts. Otherwise you're resorting to the fallacy ad hominem, the last refuge of the person with no argument.

 

[Autodidact]

that has nothing to do with this. if 2 muslims dissagree then one of them is wrong, that said once the one in the wrong is corrected, he will stick to the right perspective, not go on and on with the same incorrect view that they had even though they were corrected.

a non-muslim on the other hand (not all non-muslims) if he was to be corrected on a wrong interpretation or understanding, they continue to post the same rubish post after post, thread after thread. just read Autodidacts posts go as far back as about 10 pages.

You're saying my statements are false? In that case it should be easy for you to show us that. We're waiting for your evidence.

You have not refuted one, not a single one, of my allegations. Yet you have the temerity to characterize them as "wrong?" What's "wrong" with them?

 

[.lava]

It's not that every Muslim country practices every one of these atrocities. .lava is fortunate enough to live in a secular country, where Sharia does not form the basis for the laws. To the extent that it does in other countries, you get more of this oppression, discrimination and injustice.

.lava: Do you disagree that in the most predominantly Muslim countries where the law is based on Sharia, women are denied these rights?

as i made myself clear, you won't find me on your side as long as you fight against OUR RELIGION ISLAM. therefor, honey, don't even bother using my name. besides, she is very well aware of many things much better than you because unlike you, she cares for Islam and all Muslims

.

 

[McBell]

as i made myself clear, you won't find me on your side as long as you fight against OUR RELIGION ISLAM. therefor, honey, don't even bother using my name. besides, she is very well aware of many things much better than you because unlike you, she cares for Islam and all Muslims

.

Interesting.
All this whining and complaining yet even knowing all you have to do to shut her up is actually present the evidence that she is as wrong as you CLAIM, you do not present anything other than your claims?

 

[McBell]

that has nothing to do with this.

I disagree.

if 2 muslims dissagree then one of them is wrong, that said once the one in the wrong is corrected, he will stick to the right perspective, not go on and on with the same incorrect view that they had even though they were corrected.

You are flat out wrong.
I know two groups of Muslims here in my area who have been disagreeing for at least the last three years.

Care to try again?

a non-muslim on the other hand (not all non-muslims) if he was to be corrected on a wrong interpretation or understanding, they continue to post the same rubish post after post, thread after thread. just read Autodidacts posts go as far back as about 10 pages.

Yet no one has bothered to actually post evidence that Autodidact is wrong...
One has to wonder why we are to merely take your word for it that she is wrong?
Especially given the evidence that she has thus far presented.

Is it because you claim to be a Muslim?
How do you think that will work after all the posts on this forum about how Muslim suicide bombers are not "true" Muslims?
How are you going to prove that you are in fact a "true" Muslim?

 

[Sahar]

Is it because you claim to be a Muslim?
How do you think that will work after all the posts on this forum about how Muslim suicide bombers are not "true" Muslims?
How are you going to prove that you are in fact a "true" Muslim?

All what he has to do is to articulate his view supporting it with evidence from the Qur'an and/or the Sunnah. Just this.

 

[McBell]

All what he has to do is to articulate his view supporting it with evidence from the Qur'an and/or the Sunnah. Just this.

Nice cop out/safety net.

Unfortunately for you, that only works for your choir.
Non-Muslims are not in your choir.

Besides which, given all the threads where Muslims claim that the Koran has science facts in it, it is clear to anyone who pays any attention that Muslims have no problems using the Forer Effect to get the Koran to say exactly what they want it to say.

You should try to see this whole scenario from a non-Muslims point of view.
Perhaps if you can do that, you can see why you have seriously failed.

 

[.lava]

Interesting.
All this whining and complaining yet even knowing all you have to do to shut her up is actually present the evidence that she is as wrong as you CLAIM, you do not present anything other than your claims?

that's a good point. how do you expect me to show she is wrong? she is talking about injustice in some Muslim nations and i agree with that. but she blames Islam for it though it's proven once in awhile it's not correct application of Sharia. for instance, maybe last week, it was clearly proven by verses of Qur'an that stoning punishment for adulterer was against Islam. but still, she brings up the same issue over and over again

.

 

[Sahar]

Nice cop out/safety net.

Unfortunately for you, that only works for your choir.
Non-Muslims are not in your choir.

Besides which, given all the threads where Muslims claim that the Koran has science facts in it, it is clear to anyone who pays any attention that Muslims have no problems using the Forer Effect to get the Koran to say exactly what they want it to say.

You should try to see this whole scenario from a non-Muslims point of view.
Perhaps if you can do that, you can see why you have seriously failed.

So what is a Muslim supposed to do here?

 

[McBell]

that's a good point. how do you expect me to show she is wrong? she is talking about injustice in some Muslim nations and i agree with that. but she blames Islam for it though it's proven once in awhile it's not correct application of Sharia. for instance, maybe last week, it was clearly proven by verses of Qur'an that stoning punishment for adulterer was against Islam. but still, she brings up the same issue over and over again

.

I would start by presenting the Sharia laws that point out her error.

 

[.lava]

Nice cop out/safety net.

Unfortunately for you, that only works for your choir.
Non-Muslims are not in your choir.

Besides which, given all the threads where Muslims claim that the Koran has science facts in it, it is clear to anyone who pays any attention that Muslims have no problems using the Forer Effect to get the Koran to say exactly what they want it to say.

You should try to see this whole scenario from a non-Muslims point of view.
Perhaps if you can do that, you can see why you have seriously failed.

none of us need confirmation of non-Muslims though. IMO it is a mistake to try to prove people Qur'an is word of God or to try to prove there is God. for that matter failure is unavoidable, because Qur'an clearly states that reading Qur'an would push away disbelievers even more

.

 

[.lava]

I would start by presenting the Sharia laws that point out her error.

i would not do that for her cos i believe i have done enough for her. but i'll take this reply of yours as an invitation and respond it as a friend thank you

.

 

[McBell]

So what is a Muslim supposed to do here?

Honestly, I am not really sure.

I will think on it and see if I come up with any ideas

 

[.lava]

Allah does not have a gender.

hi Eselam, what i tried to say earilier was "God is not human let alone being male". i apologize for misunderstanding and i will go and change my wording. thank you

.

 

[Gharib]

It's not about me, eselam, it's about the truth. If my statements are false, it should be easy for you to refute them.

refuting false statements is one thing, refuting willful ignorance is a complete different thing, i don't know how to combat willful ignorance.

 

[Gharib]

hi Eselam, what i tried to say earilier was "God is not human let alone being male". i apologize for misunderstanding and i will go and change my wording. thank you

.

yes that makes sense.