Should we fear Islam?

[Caladan]

yes, those two did fight once in awhile. if i am not mistaken, Iran never lived under Ottoman authority. stoning people to death, saving rapist from punishment...etc. that kind of injustice did not took place during Ottoman. now there is. these people were Muslims back then while they were ruled by Ottoman, they are Muslims today as well. the only thing that's changed is the authority that rule public and apply Sharia. that's what i am trying to say

.

I'm starting to see your point. while I'm not an expert on Sharia and the Ottoman empire, the Ottoman empire was progressive and tolerant in many ways in their religious treatment of Jews and Christians and much of it was par Islamic dogma, for example the concept of the People of the Book.

 

[Autodidact]

I have a different take. Christianity was just as bad at one time--during the Middle Ages. The crusades were basically a criminal rampage. Slaughtering innocent Jews, burning women, torturing heretics, etc. etc. Now they're not. There was a difference in their history. Revolutions in France and the U.S., gradual change in other European countries secularized Christianity and got it under control. With separation of church and state, the religion can no longer run rampant in its criminal tendencies.

If not for secular authorities, priests would still be raping boys and being protected by the church. What keeps religious authorities from turning into criminal regimes is secularization.

What I'm saying is, I think the problem is theocracy. In more secular states, such as Turkey and Indonesia, these types of actions are curtailed by the state.

In other words, the base problem is religion. Due to history, the Christian religion is held in check, Islam less so.

 

[DallasApple]

I have a different take. Christianity was just as bad at one time--during the Middle Ages. The crusades were basically a criminal rampage. Slaughtering innocent Jews, burning women, torturing heretics, etc. etc. Now they're not. There was a difference in their history. Revolutions in France and the U.S., gradual change in other European countries secularized Christianity and got it under control. With separation of church and state, the religion can no longer run rampant in its criminal tendencies.

If not for secular authorities, priests would still be raping boys and being protected by the church. What keeps religious authorities from turning into criminal regimes is secularization.

What I'm saying is, I think the problem is theocracy. In more secular states, such as Turkey and Indonesia, these types of actions are curtailed by the state.

In other words, the base problem is religion. Due to history, the Christian religion is held in check, Islam less so.

I will agree..but I would say that its a balanace between the two..because with secularation only there would still be LOTS of problems and nothing woudl be held in check either.

It cant be one "extreme " or the other..Two heads are better than one.It cant be a "free for all".

Some religious roots and beliefs mixed with "secular" thinking is the ultimate combination..

You get "too secualar" Next thing you know the priest will be being excused for ******* little kids and there is NO problem whatsoever because "thats just the way they are".And hey while your at it why not screw a horse.???

It will be like "totally fine"..Because we have ZERO right to judge someone else.

Love

Dallas

 

[Composer]

. . . . Muslims won't abandone Islam. . . . .

Untrue!

I just did a quick Google -

Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain

&
Islam Simplified: A Pile of Stinking Garbage

by Dr Omar Zia (http://www.islam-watch.org/Omar.Zia/Islam-Pile-of-Stinking-Garbage.htm)

 

[Hitchey]

Iraq and Afganistan were not a problem until we invaded them. Somalia is an internal political problem.

Was Afganistan not running terroist training camps? I belief they were a threat. Sadam, on the other hand, though he was brutish to Kurds and others, he was no immediate threat to us.

On the main point, however, I think Iran is a theocracy controled by extremists. Women are stoned in Saudia Arabia. That's extreme. I think there are many examples of non-moderate Muslims running the show in Islamic countries.

The CBC did a documentary a few years ago on the liberal underground in Iraq. The journalist accompanied his hosts with burka clad women to a party being held in secret. When they arrived the women removed their burkas to reveal themselves to be wearing evening gowns that, he said, were scanty by even Western standards. Alcohol was even served to the guests. The point is, moderate Islam is an underground movement. It is dangerous to be openly pro-Western, and liberal in thought.

So, is it possible for a secular Islamic society to exist with Western values. Yes, but there are too many extremists about for people to reveal their hand. Are the extremists a threat? Yes they are, but I don't know what we can do about it. Probably very little except not to appear as a threat to the extremists. This might help liberally-minded Muslims to come out of the closet and perhaps spread their values.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Responding to original post:
Malcom X quotes

5) p.152: "… If we are extremists, we're not ashamed of it. In fact, the conditions that our people suffer are extreme, and an extreme illness cannot be cured with a moderate medicine."

14) p.192: "I don't go along with anyone who wants to teach our people nonviolence until someone is at the same time teaching our enemy to be nonviolent."

 

[McBell]

Responding to original post:
Malcom X quotes

Is this an attempt at the Martyr Defense?

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Yes , something like that.

 

[Gharib]

What is it you think I'm "willfully ignorant" of?

Ignorance is one of the easiest thing to combat. All you need are facts. Do you have any?

once again, well done, thank you.

 

[Gharib]

You're not understanding me. I have never made any claim about what the qur'an says or what is actually Islamic. The only claims I have made are about what's actually happening in the actual world. Actual Muslims are stoning, flogging and jailing actual rape victims. If that is not true, then refute it. Show me that the reported instances of this happening are false.

Statements about what the qur'an says are irrelevant to my point.

O.K. We've posted source after story after report of women being raped and then imprisoned, flogged or stoned for having the temerity to report it. Obviously, if women are afraid to report being raped, then the rapists get away with rape with impunity. What a surprise! A male-dominated religion that facilitates rape. No coincidence there.

i want to ask you a straightforward question Autodidact, are you seriously that dumb or are you pretending to be? i tend to think it is the former.

look don't insult me and my religion with false statements, i know you have a personal agenda against islam and i know you hate muslims your posts very clearly say that, but even though you do have a personal agenda, do not post false statements by attributing just about anything you can find, on islam and it's followers like me.

 

[Composer]

. . . . look don't insult me and my religion with false statements, i know you have a personal agenda against islam and i know you hate muslims your posts very clearly say that, but even though you do have a personal agenda, do not post false statements by attributing just about anything you can find, on islam and it's followers like me.

IF any here who spend a reasonable amount of time trying to assist Muslems and get Muslems to legitimately and honestly answer questions, but they invariably do not and instead as you do here and now falsely accuse them of ' hating Muslems '. Of course the mere fact that they and I are here helping Muslems come to a better understanding refutes the claim that we ' hate Muslems '. IF any one truly hated you we would leave you in your pit of Islamic delsuion and not try to assist you escape it.

I want you to escape and realise ALL religions are MAN MADE and ALL so called religious books are MAN MADE and devised by the dishonest hands of men, invariably for various evil reasons and purposes such as control and power for the corrupt men that used it in the past and use it now; for those wishing to keep that power & control over the gullible and maintain their privileged jobs and positions.

 

[.lava]

IF any one truly hated you we would leave you in your pit of Islamic delsuion and not try to assist you escape it.

lol sure, we see here that positive emotions you carry within your heart for us

I want you to escape and realise ALL religions are MAN MADE and ALL so called religious books are MAN MADE and devised by the dishonest hands of men, invariably for various evil reasons and purposes such as control and power for the corrupt men that used it in the past and use it now; for those wishing to keep that power & control over the gullible and maintain their privileged jobs and positions.

so everyone has to believe what you believe because you are certain. well, i don't wish to wake you up from your sleep but we are certain too and personally i don't mind if you are in a pit or not. you are an individual and you do as you wish and i am not going to pay for your own doings. but maybe you should get used to this reality that every single human has right to do so. besides if someone asks for help, offer help. you can't force people to accept your so-called help specially when it is not needed

.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Sadam, on the other hand, though he was brutish to Kurds and others, he was no immediate threat to us.

Many Americans see Sadam as a Muslim attack dog, he was really more of a Stalinist. He seemed to hate Islam but was more then willing to use it in times of crisis. Just like his hero Joseph Stalin who used Orthodox Christianity in WWII.

 

[Composer]

lol sure, we see here that positive emotions you carry within your heart for us

I do!

so everyone has to believe what you believe because you are certain.

Nope! but I would be selfish if I kept the Truth to myself. You have the opportunity to consider it and then you can never complain I hid the Truth from you or that the Truth I bring was hidden from you.

well, i don't wish to wake you up from your sleep but we are certain too and personally i don't mind if you are in a pit or not.

Oh well another difference between us because I do care!

you are an individual and you do as you wish and i am not going to pay for your own doings. but maybe you should get used to this reality that every single human has right to do so. besides if someone asks for help, offer help. you can't force people to accept your so-called help specially when it is not needed

The facts are ALL religions are corrupt and man made and the various story books associated with them all.

I am not forcing any one to change, just presenting them with the Truth and they can do with that new found Truth what they will, at least I have done my part in presenting it and not selfishly keeping it all to myself.

 

[.lava]

I do!

Nope! but I would be selfish if I kept the Truth to myself. You have the opportunity to consider it and then you can never complain I hid the Truth from you or that the Truth I bring was hidden from you.

it is your truth that you share and i am already informed about what i would hear from others thanks to Qur'an

Oh well another difference between us because I do care!

accusing people for things they haven't done, insulting their paths and refusing empathy is not actually caring for them. so to speak, if you were "the king of the land", you would never let us practice our religion and that is part of your truth. because you only care fr what you believe and you only respect yourself and people alike.

The facts are ALL religions are corrupt and man made and the various story books associated with them all.

so we disagree. what are you planing to do about it? i do believe Qur'an is word of God and i am willing to live according to it's laws and knowledge. i don't care if you percieve me as a lunatic or a devotee. i am just a mirror and i won't hold myself responsible of what you see in it. you are on your own like anyone else, friend.

I am not forcing any one to change, just presenting them with the Truth and they can do with that new found Truth what they will, at least I have done my part in presenting it and not selfishly keeping it all to myself.

that's cute but who are you fooling exactly? the one who holds "the truth" within would have no expectations and as he shares what he knows he would never break hearts and would never look down upon others with arrogance. you may think Islam is all about what you see but you may not consider you only get what you deserve. there are worlds within worlds and there are realities within reality. you are obviously facing one and it is YOURS TRULLY



.

 

[McBell]

i am just a mirror and i won't hold myself responsible of what you see in it.

ah.
So you do think that it is the fault of Islam, right?
I mean, you are refusing to take responsibility for how you reflect Islam right?

Is that not exactly what you mean with this mirror comment?
If not, you might want to reword it.
Cause that is exactly what it sounds like you are claiming.

 

[.lava]

ah.
So you do think that it is the fault of Islam, right?
I mean, you are refusing to take responsibility for how you reflect Islam right?

Is that not exactly what you mean with this mirror comment?
If not, you might want to reword it.
Cause that is exactly what it sounds like you are claiming.

no, that's not what i am saying. i am saying that everyone is ALONE in his own reality. if someone looks at this outside world and percieves hatred by also feeling the same emotion aka hatred, he is not percieving nothing more than what he really is. what he has within is exactly what he gets from outside.

no, i am not refusing taking responsibility of my own actions which i find absolutely impossible. is that what you want? does your reply reflect what you expect me to be? that would really break my heart. it is OK though, you can break it

.

 

[McBell]

no, that's not what i am saying. i am saying that everyone is ALONE in his own reality. if someone looks at this outside world and percieves hatred by also feeling the same emotion aka hatred, he is not percieving nothing more than what he really is. what he has within is exactly what he gets from outside.

no, i am not refusing taking responsibility of my own actions which i find absolutely impossible. is that what you want? does your reply reflect what you expect me to be? that would really break my heart. it is OK though, you can break it

.

you really need to stop trying so hard to be offended.

I did nothing but ask a couple questions to clarification on things you posted and then explained that what you posted sounds like something I suspected you did not mean for it to sound like.

 

[.lava]

you really need to stop trying so hard to be offended.

I did nothing but ask a couple questions to clarification on things you posted and then explained that what you posted sounds like something I suspected you did not mean for it to sound like.

OK, i am sorry

.

 

[Autodidact]

once again, well done, thank you.

I take that as a "no?"