Should we fear Islam?

[Gharib]

You're saying my statements are false? In that case it should be easy for you to show us that. We're waiting for your evidence.

You have not refuted one, not a single one, of my allegations. Yet you have the temerity to characterize them as "wrong?" What's "wrong" with them?

liar liar pants on fire, see what i mean about you. in an earlier post you said

O.K. We've posted source after story after report of women being raped and then imprisoned, flogged or stoned for having the temerity to report it. Obviously, if women are afraid to report being raped, then the rapists get away with rape with impunity. What a surprise! A male-dominated religion that facilitates rape. No coincidence there.

and i replied with the following:

Does Islam require four witnesses for rape?

yet here you are saying:

"You have not refuted one, not a single one, of my allegations. Yet you have the temerity to characterize them as "wrong?" What's "wrong" with them"

thanks once more Autodidact.

 

[Gharib]

I disagree.

You are flat out wrong.
I know two groups of Muslims here in my area who have been disagreeing for at least the last three years.

Care to try again?

yeah so?

Yet no one has bothered to actually post evidence that Autodidact is wrong...

please stop OK, your ignorance is showing, you didn't even bother to read what i said. so you too are a liar.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Response: The extremists have no control over any land, nor are they getting close in doing so. So they are no threat.

What you should worry about is the media which portrays islam in a
negative manner. For they are the reason why the extremists are gaining so much ground to begin with, due to their attacks on islam. Such propaganda can convince the muslims who are peaceful to perhaps reconsider, because their religion is constantly under attack.

I have to admit those are good points. I can't give frubals because I am out of them currently.

PS Delete your private messages so I can PM you.

 

[McBell]

yeah so?

You are wrong.
I guess that means you are not a true Muslim, right?
Which would mean anything you have to say about Islam is nul and void, right?
Or would you like to start back peddling now?

please stop OK, your ignorance is showing, you didn't even bother to read what i said. so you too are a liar.

How does your being wrong make me a liar?

 

[Autodidact]

that's a good point. how do you expect me to show she is wrong? she is talking about injustice in some Muslim nations and i agree with that. but she blames Islam for it though it's proven once in awhile it's not correct application of Sharia. for instance, maybe last week, it was clearly proven by verses of Qur'an that stoning punishment for adulterer was against Islam. but still, she brings up the same issue over and over again

.

For the record, I don't disagree that all of these things are, or may be for all I know, "against Islam," that is, not authorized by the qur'an. I'm not arguing that. My point is that it doesn't make any difference what the True Islam says. The poor murdered gay man is just as dead, just as killed by his Muslim government purporting to act according to Islam, whether it's in accord with the qur'an or not. I'm not worried about True Islam, since it doesn't exist. I'm only worried about actual Islam as actually practiced by actual Muslims in the actual world. That one is dangerous.

If the remedy is to get actual Muslims to act in accord with True Islam, then there should be a worldwide movement to reform Islam and make it conform with True Islam. Is there?

 

[Autodidact]

that's a good point. how do you expect me to show she is wrong? she is talking about injustice in some Muslim nations and i agree with that. but she blames Islam for it though it's proven once in awhile it's not correct application of Sharia. for instance, maybe last week, it was clearly proven by verses of Qur'an that stoning punishment for adulterer was against Islam. but still, she brings up the same issue over and over again

.

Because, since last week, an actual human being may be have been stoned for adultery. And that matters.

 

[Autodidact]

refuting false statements is one thing, refuting willful ignorance is a complete different thing, i don't know how to combat willful ignorance.

What is it you think I'm "willfully ignorant" of?

Ignorance is one of the easiest thing to combat. All you need are facts. Do you have any?

 

[Autodidact]

liar liar pants on fire, see what i mean about you. in an earlier post you said



and i replied with the following:

Does Islam require four witnesses for rape?

yet here you are saying:

"You have not refuted one, not a single one, of my allegations. Yet you have the temerity to characterize them as "wrong?" What's "wrong" with them"

thanks once more Autodidact.

You're not understanding me. I have never made any claim about what the qur'an says or what is actually Islamic. The only claims I have made are about what's actually happening in the actual world. Actual Muslims are stoning, flogging and jailing actual rape victims. If that is not true, then refute it. Show me that the reported instances of this happening are false.

Statements about what the qur'an says are irrelevant to my point.

 

[.lava]

For the record, I don't disagree that all of these things are, or may be for all I know, "against Islam," that is, not authorized by the qur'an. I'm not arguing that.

well, i am. if there are 1.5 billion Muslims on Earth -from different cultures and different nations- they all have a few things in common. Qur'an for that matter is the core of Islam. so when you accuse Islam the religion, what you say touches me and every single Muslim too.

My point is that it doesn't make any difference what the True Islam says.

really? what do you think i am practicing? Qur'an is many things, it is also hand book of what Islam is. anyone who wants to learn what Islam is would read Qur'an first. besides, Muslims won't abandone Islam. if you want to see injustice end in Muslim nations, then you should care about what Islam really is because only Islam can help Muslims.

The poor murdered gay man is just as dead, just as killed by his Muslim government purporting to act according to Islam, whether it's in accord with the qur'an or not. I'm not worried about True Islam, since it doesn't exist. I'm only worried about actual Islam as actually practiced by actual Muslims in the actual world. That one is dangerous.

am i fictional? Islam that my master taught me is fictional? it is real, Autodidact. there are many dangers in this world. Islamic morals and teachings would make people save themselves from ignorance at certain degree. attacking Islam and trying to "save" us from being Muslims would only feed those whom you fear. i rather see Western stop correcting their stand by attacking Islam.

If the remedy is to get actual Muslims to act in accord with True Islam, then there should be a worldwide movement to reform Islam and make it conform with True Islam. Is there?

Islam does not need reform. people need to learn Qur'an. no Muslim can take responsibility of being a Muslim with dignity to be the right example, if he did not know what Islam is. Muslims unfortunately learn Islam from what other people say and do, just like you do. you may be the exact opposite of them but to me you are the same thing. what you think Islam is perfectly matches with what those whom you fight against think what Islam is. don't you find it little strange?

.

 

[.lava]

Because, since last week, an actual human being may be have been stoned for adultery. And that matters.

so once is not enough and you reply the same post of mine twice?

what else can i do? this kind of stuff only kills my sleep. it is beyond my power. you know that, so why do you keep holding me and other Muslims responsible? whatever power do you have over American soldiers in Afghanistan? can you make them leave Muslim land? i am sorry, i am not asking this question to disturb you or distract you, so don't get me wrong. i find it similar and i don't even expect an answer

.

 

[Autodidact]

Let's start over, because we're going around in circles.

What is it about Islam, True or otherwise, that causes actual Muslims doing their best to practice it, to commit atrocities against other Muslims and non-Muslims? Why do people-trying-to-practice-Islam regularly do things that other people don't, such as suicide bombing?

I'm not saying that suicide bombing is Islamic, in the sense that the qur'an endorses it; I'm told that it doesn't. But the people doing it are Muslim, and they say over and over again that they're doing it for Islam, that Islam requires them to do it, and so forth.

So what's going on here? Why do Muslims do this stuff that non-Muslims don't?

If it's not the qur'an, what is it? Specifically, what is it that's different from non-Muslim culture, education, history, religion, or whatever?

 

[.lava]

Let's start over, because we're going around in circles.

What is it about Islam, True or otherwise, that causes actual Muslims doing their best to practice it, to commit atrocities against other Muslims and non-Muslims? Why do people-trying-to-practice-Islam regularly do things that other people don't, such as suicide bombing?

I'm not saying that suicide bombing is Islamic, in the sense that the qur'an endorses it; I'm told that it doesn't. But the people doing it are Muslim, and they say over and over again that they're doing it for Islam, that Islam requires them to do it, and so forth.

So what's going on here? Why do Muslims do this stuff that non-Muslims don't?

If it's not the qur'an, what is it? Specifically, what is it that's different from non-Muslim culture, education, history, religion, or whatever?

i can't imagine how someone could do that. if you care, according to our knowledge, the one who kills himself earn hell and there is no going back. but these people think (i assume they think) they are dying for Islam. there could be tones of reasons behind it. IMO it is mostly social and educational reasons. if a Muslim knew that he would earn hell in case he kills himself, i believe he would fear it very much. yet if they are told, they would die for Allah and therefor they would go to heaven, they might think it is a easy way out; out of war, out of poverty, out of misery and bingo, you're in heaven

.

 

[Autodidact]

"social and educational" is very broad, very vague. I have some thoughts myself, but I wonder what other people think. If it's not the qur'an, the basis of Islam, then what accounts for it?

Or all the discriminatory laws against women in some Muslim countries. If they're not based on the qur'an, why does Saudi Arabia prohibit women from driving, when Nepal, Argentina and Iceland don't? Why are rape-victims flogged in Pakistan, and not in Poland? etc.? The common element is Islam, so--what has happened to Islam and why?

In short, what is going on here?

 

[DallasApple]

"social and educational" is very broad, very vague. I have some thoughts myself, but I wonder what other people think. If it's not the qur'an, the basis of Islam, then what accounts for it?

Or all the discriminatory laws against women in some Muslim countries. If they're not based on the qur'an, why does Saudi Arabia prohibit women from driving, when Nepal, Argentina and Iceland don't? Why are rape-victims flogged in Pakistan, and not in Poland? etc.? The common element is Islam, so--what has happened to Islam and why?

In short, what is going on here?

Maybe some of them go crazy from their parents who hold certain interpretations of what it means to be Muslim?(starting in childhood of course)..

Being repressed "opressed" to having no individual identity other than in relatation to what kind of Muslim they are?

Then you just go insane and think everyone around you is evil and kill your self and those around you that you have imagined are your enemies ?

Fear combined with extreme jelousy (subconscious jealousy of course)..Fear of not ending up in the right place so you will get more and more extreme? and a LOT of it is based on sexuality of course.

Love

Dallas

 

[.lava]

"social and educational" is very broad, very vague. I have some thoughts myself, but I wonder what other people think. If it's not the qur'an, the basis of Islam, then what accounts for it?

Or all the discriminatory laws against women in some Muslim countries. If they're not based on the qur'an, why does Saudi Arabia prohibit women from driving, when Nepal, Argentina and Iceland don't? Why are rape-victims flogged in Pakistan, and not in Poland? etc.? The common element is Islam, so--what has happened to Islam and why?

In short, what is going on here?

it is the region. most of those nations used to live under Ottoman authority for centuries. they applied Sharia correctly so far i can see. ever since Ottoman fell apart, this region is like boiling water. i really try to avoid talk about authorities, i mean, i don't wish to be rude. i can only say i don't like them. as a Muslim and as an individual, i just don't like them

.

 

[Caladan]

it is the region. most of those nations used to live under Ottoman authority for centuries. they applied Sharia correctly so far i can see. ever since Ottoman fell apart, this region is like boiling water. i really try to avoid talk about authorities, i mean, i don't wish to be rude. i can only say i don't like them. as a Muslim and as an individual, i just don't like them

.

And yet the Arabs treated the Ottomans like the militants in Iraq and Afghanistan treat the USA. the Arabs organized the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman rule in 1916. so not only the Arabs did not welcome the Islamic authority of the Ottomans, but it seems that the region was boiling under the Ottomans as well.

 

[.lava]

And yet the Arabs treated the Ottomans like the militants in Iraq and Afghanistan treat the USA. the Arabs organized the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman rule in 1916. so not only the Arabs did not welcome the Islamic authority of the Ottomans, but it seems that the region was boiling under the Ottomans as well.

you're talking about WWI, end of Ottoman

.

 

[DallasApple]

So its a "power struggle"..

Love

Dallas

 

[Caladan]

you're talking about WWI, end of Ottoman

.

Clashes and war between various Islamic elements and the Ottomans was not only restricted to the 20th century, for example the ruling dynasty of Iran (the Safavids) was also subject to war with the Ottomans in the 16th century, before the Ottomans went on their war march they expelled Shiites from various places in the Ottoman Empire.

 

[.lava]

Clashes and war between various Islamic elements and the Ottomans was not only restricted to the 20th century, for example the ruling dynasty of Iran (the Safavids) was also subject to war with the Ottomans in the 16th century, before the Ottomans went on their war march they expelled Shiites from various places in the Ottoman Empire.

yes, those two did fight once in awhile. if i am not mistaken, Iran never lived under Ottoman authority. stoning people to death, saving rapist from punishment...etc. that kind of injustice did not took place during Ottoman. now there is. these people were Muslims back then while they were ruled by Ottoman, they are Muslims today as well. the only thing that's changed is the authority that rule public and apply Sharia. that's what i am trying to say

.