Should we fear Islam?

[.lava]

But when you do have your own governments, what happens is oppression of women, codification of injustice, flogging victims, killing homosexuals, and exporting terrorism. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

are you a machine? does your mind reset when you wake up in the morning?

.

 

[Autodidact]

are you a machine? does your mind reset when you wake up in the morning?

.

I understand that the truth hurts. I'm a truth machine.

 

[Gharib]

Exactly. When Muslims commit actions in the name of Islam, it's the muslims to blame. I don't know, ask the millions of your brother and sister Muslims who do so. I have no opinion on the subject, which is not my business. What I do know is that they are perpetrating injustice, oppression and violence as Muslims in the name of their religion.

The answer is: none of my business. It's not up to me, a non-Muslim, to tell Muslims what their religion teaches. That's up to Muslims to decide. Unfortunately, millions of them have decided that it teaches violent repression of women, suicide bombing, terrorism, inequality and patriarchal rule.
O.K. We've posted source after story after report of women being raped and then imprisoned, flogged or stoned for having the temerity to report it. Obviously, if women are afraid to report being raped, then the rapists get away with rape with impunity. What a surprise! A male-dominated religion that facilitates rape. No coincidence there.

Are you joking? Wow, I hardly know where to begin. It's probably the most patriarchal religion currently practiced in the world. It would take volumes to articualr the completely male-dominated religion that is contemporary Islam, the inequality between the sexes, denial of women's right to vote, drive, and dress freely, male clerics, honor killing, inability or unwillingness to punish rape, female genital mutilation, unequal marriage law, killing girls for daring to exercise their human rights, denial of equal education to girls, denying the right to travel or, in extreme cases, to leave the home without a male relative...there's not enough space to list it all. I can hardly imagine a more male-dominant system than Islam as currently practiced in most Muslim countries. Are you with a straight face trying to assert that women in Saudia Arabia, Iran, Yemen or Afghanistan enjoy equal rights?

I can't even take this seriously. It's ridiculous. You don't even advocate female equality, do you?

Do you believe women should be allowed to have up to four husbands?

Do you think women should be able to travel freely, wherever they like, alone, wearing whatever they like?

Do you think women should be allowed to serve as Imams and lead services in your mosque?

Should women have the right to divorce their husbands, and have custody of their children?



If you like I'll post 20 pages of news stories about sexism in Islam.

thank you auto, i now see what kind of a person you are.

 

[Autodidact]

thank you auto, i now see what kind of a person you are.

Yes, I'm a person who stands up for the truth, for equality, and for women's rights, a person who hates oppression and injustice.

I take it you'd rather not have me post 20 pages of news stories about women's oppression under Islam?

 

[.lava]

I understand that the truth hurts. I'm a truth machine.

truth sets free, it is reality and cruelty of people that hurts and you are trully a captive of fear, not truth.

so you are a machine after all. is there anyway for us not to let your system reset your mind so that we would not repeat every single thing each day?

.

 

[Gharib]

Yes, I'm a person who stands up for the truth, for equality, and for women's rights, a person who hates oppression and injustice.

yes your posts clearly say a lot in the past few pages.

 

[England my lionheart]

But when you do have your own governments, what happens is oppression of women, codification of injustice, flogging victims, killing homosexuals, and exporting terrorism. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

Sounds like a very very bad catastrophe to me if that were to happen

 

[Autodidact]

truth sets free, it is reality and cruelty of people that hurts and you are trully a captive of fear, not truth.

so you are a machine after all. is there anyway for us not to let your system reset your mind so that we would not repeat every single thing each day?

.

Stop denying reality. Stop saying ridiculous things such as that women are not oppressed under Sharia law as practiced in the world today.

You're right--the truth sets you free. The first step to rectifying any situation is to admit it. Islam, as actually practiced in actual Muslim countries in the world today, is violent, oppressive and injust. That's reality. Now if you want to argue that's not True Islam, and try to change it, good. Go for it. But you'll never get there by denying that it's going on.

For one thing, it's an absurd position. It's based on denying reality.

For example, you probably take the position that suicide bombing is not Islamic. Great. Meanwhile, actual Muslims in the real world disagree with you, and carry out suicide bombings, killing Muslims and non-Muslims alike, every day. Rather than arguing with us, non-Muslims, about whether this is happening, since the entire world knows it's happening, or whining about "blaming Muslims" for what Muslims do, the first step to correcting this problem is to acknowledge that it is indeed happening. The next step would be to try to figure out why. To figure this out, we need to look at what it is about Islam that causes these people to believe their religion requires them to murder men, women, children and babies, Muslim and non-Muslim.

What is not helpful is to deny that it's going on, or that the people who do it are responsible for their actions, or that their religious beliefs, WHICH THEY THINK ARE ISLAMIC, contribute to these actions. They tell you as much. When asked, suicide bombers who get caught always say they are doing it for Allah or because Allah wants them to. I understand that you disagree, but the people you need to persuade are not us, the non-Muslim world, it's the people who are doing it.

If hundreds of people use their lives to demonstrate that Allah is a violent, oppressive, war God, it's natural that the rest of us are going to conclude that their Allah is just that.

The only way to change this perception is to change the actions.

You can't have Muslim suicide bombers killing themselves and others in the name of Allah, and the world not worry that Islam creates suicide bombers!

 

[Autodidact]

yes your posts clearly say a lot in the past few pages.

Thank you.

Are you honestly trying to deny the following happen by Muslims in Islamic countries:

• honor killing
• punishing rape victims
• denying women equal rights
• suicide bombing
• punishing and killing homosexuals
• organized violence against other Muslims.
• prohibiting women the right to drive, vote, dress as they choose.
• prohibiting girls from going to school, or punishing them if they dare?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

truth sets free, it is reality and cruelty of people that hurts and you are trully a captive of fear, not truth.

so you are a machine after all. is there anyway for us not to let your system reset your mind so that we would not repeat every single thing each day?

.

But some truths are ugly. Freedom comes with the cost of responsibly facing difficult truths.

 

[.lava]

Stop denying reality. Stop saying ridiculous things such as that women are not oppressed under Sharia law as practiced in the world today.

You're right--the truth sets you free. The first step to rectifying any situation is to admit it. Islam, as actually practiced in actual Muslim countries in the world today, is violent, oppressive and injust. That's reality. Now if you want to argue that's not True Islam, and try to change it, good. Go for it. But you'll never get there by denying that it's going on.

For one thing, it's an absurd position. It's based on denying reality.

For example, you probably take the position that suicide bombing is not Islamic. Great. Meanwhile, actual Muslims in the real world disagree with you, and carry out suicide bombings, killing Muslims and non-Muslims alike, every day. Rather than arguing with us, non-Muslims, about whether this is happening, since the entire world knows it's happening, or whining about "blaming Muslims" for what Muslims do, the first step to correcting this problem is to acknowledge that it is indeed happening. The next step would be to try to figure out why. To figure this out, we need to look at what it is about Islam that causes these people to believe their religion requires them to murder men, women, children and babies, Muslim and non-Muslim.

What is not helpful is to deny that it's going on, or that the people who do it are responsible for their actions, or that their religious beliefs, WHICH THEY THINK ARE ISLAMIC, contribute to these actions. They tell you as much. When asked, suicide bombers who get caught always say they are doing it for Allah or because Allah wants them to. I understand that you disagree, but the people you need to persuade are not us, the non-Muslim world, it's the people who are doing it.

If hundreds of people use their lives to demonstrate that Allah is a violent, oppressive, war God, it's natural that the rest of us are going to conclude that their Allah is just that.

The only way to change this perception is to change the actions.

You can't have Muslim suicide bombers killing themselves and others in the name of Allah, and the world not worry that Islam creates suicide bombers!

seriously Autodidact, are you on something?

go, quote whatever i said to deserve these accusations. when and how did i say injustice does not exist? when did i claim suicide bo...oh wait...OK

nevermind, you're going to forget about it anyway

.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thank you.

Are you honestly trying to deny the following happen by Muslims in Islamic countries:

• honor killing
• punishing rape victims
• denying women equal rights
• suicide bombing
• punishing and killing homosexuals
• organized violence against other Muslims.
• prohibiting women the right to drive, vote, dress as they choose.
• prohibiting girls from going to school, or punishing them if they dare?

BTW, have you ever read the book Three Cups of Tea?

It tells the story of Greg Mortenson, who stumbles on several small remote Muslim cities in Pakistan. In these remote villiages, girls were educated with boys, and enjoyed much more freedom than commonly associated with Islamic states.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Auto - where did you get the pictures of the women being stoned / buried alive? Did you just google images?

 

[Gharib]

BTW, have you ever read the book Three Cups of Tea?

It tells the story of Greg Mortenson, who stumbles on several small remote Muslim cities in Pakistan. In these remote villiages, girls were educated with boys, and enjoyed much more freedom than commonly associated with Islamic states.

don't bother angellous. whats the point?

 

[Autodidact]

seriously Autodidact, are you on something?

go, quote whatever i said to deserve these accusations. when and how did i say injustice does not exist? when did i claim suicide bo...oh wait...OK

nevermind, you're going to forget about it anyway

.

What I said is, your argument is that it's not Islamic. (I assume/hope.) That is irrelevant, when talking to non-Muslims. We do not have the right to decide what's Islamic and what is not. The people who need to hear that are other Muslims. Looking at it from the outside, all we can see is that Muslims are doing it and saying it's Islamic.

For us, the non-Muslims, when we ask ourselves how to prevent terrorism and suicide bombing in our countries, the answer seems to be to resist the growth and spread of Islam with everything we've got.

Because we don't want to end up like Iran/Pakistan/Saudi Arabia/Yemen/Afghanistan etc. We don't want our countries to look like that.

So, basically, the way I see it, until and unless the good guys in the Muslim world, that is, people like you, make some practical headway against the bad guys such as the Taliban, the only recourse we have is to fight against Islam.

 

[Autodidact]

Auto - where did you get the pictures of the women being stoned / buried alive? Did you just google images?

Yes. I just put in the search terms and googled images.

However, I will say that we all acknowledge that these things happen. It is an undeniable fact that in Muslim countries, women have been stoned, flogged, murdered and incarcerated for crimes such as dressing wrong, using facebook, going on a date or being raped.

 

[Composer]

No. Looks like you've been to an anti-islamic website and your 1st statement is complete nonsense.

Not at all, do you have a link though it sounds interesting and I can hear what ex-Muslems have to say instead of your empty claims?

I actually got my legitimate information from the Qu'ran, Hadiths and Historical records. e.g.

MAHOMET'S FLIGHT FROM MECCA TO MEDINA

(p. 673) - The first and most arduous conquests of Mahomet were those of his wife, his servant, his pupil, and his friend; since he presented himself as a prophet to those who were most conversant with his infirmities as a man.

(p.674) - . . . "Friends and kinsmen," said Mahomet to the assembly, "I offer you, and I alone can offer, the most precious of gifts, the treasures of this world and of the world to come. God has commanded me to call you to his service. Whom among you will support my burden? Who among you will be my companion and my vizar?"

No answer was returned, till the silence of astonishment, and doubt, and contempt was at length broken by the impatient courage of Ali, a youth in the fourteenth year of his age. "Oh prophet, I am the man: whosoever rises against thee, I will dash out his teeth, tear out his eyes, break his legs, rip up his belly. Oh prophet, I will be thy vizar over them." Mahomet accepted his offer with transport, and Abu Taleb was ironically exhorted to respect the superior dignity of his son. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, pp. 673-674) -

MAHOMET DECLARES WAR AGAINST THE INFIDEL

From all sides the roving Arabs were allured to the standard of religion and plunder: the apostle sanctified the licence of embracing the female captives as their wives or concubines; and the enjoyment of wealth and beauty was a feeble type of the joys of paradise prepared for the valiant martyrs of the faith. "The sword," says Mahomet, "is the key of heaven and of hell: a drop of blood shed in the cause of God, a night spent in arms, is of more avail than two months of fasting or prayer: whosoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven: at the day of judgment his wounds shall be resplendent as vermilion, and odoriferous as musk; and the loss of his limbs shall be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim." (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 679) -

THE CHARACTER AND PRIVATE LIFE OF MAHOMET

. . . The use of fraud and perfidy, of cruelty and injustice, were often subservient to the propagation of the faith; and Mahomet commanded or approved the assassination of the Jews and idolaters who had escaped from the field of battle. By the repetition of such acts the character of Mahomet must have been gradually stained; and the influence of such pernicious habits would be poorly compensated by the practice of the personal and social virtues which are necessary to maintain the reputation of a prophet among his secretaries and friends. Of his last years ambition was the ruling passion; and a politician will suspect that he secretly smiled (the victorious imposter!) at the enthusiasm of his youth, and the credulity of his proselytes.1 A philosopher will observe that their credulity and his success would tend more strongly to fortify the assurance of his divine mission, that his interest and religion were inseparably connected, and that his conscience would be soothed by the persuasion that he alone was absolved by the Deity from the obligation of positive and moral laws. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 690) -

Mahomet breaks his own Laws -

Perfumes and women were the two sensual enjoyments which his nature required, and his religion did not forbid; and Mahomet affirmed that the fervour of his devotion was increased by these innocent pleasures. The heat of the climate enflames the blood of the Arabs, and their libidinous complexion has been noticed by the writers of antiquity.

Their incontinence was regulated by the civil and religious laws of the Koran: their incestuous alliances were blamed: the boundless licence of polygamy was reduced to four legitimate wives or concubines; their rights of both bed and of dowry were equitably determined; the freedom of divorce was discouraged; adultery was condemned as a capital offence; and fornication, in either sex, was punished with an hundred stripes. Such were the calm and rational precepts of this legislator; but in his private conduct Mahomet indulged the appetites of a man, and abused the claims of a prophet. A special revelation dispensed him from the laws which he had imposed on his nation; the female sex, without reserve, was abandoned to his desires; and this singular prerogative excited the envy rather than the scandal, the veneration rather than the envy, of the devout Musulmans. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 691) -

INFLUENCE OF MAHOMET

Mahomet was instructed to preach and to fight; and the union of these opposite qualities, while it enhanced his merit, contributed to his success: the operation of force and persuasion, of enthusiasm and fear, continually acted on each other, till every barrier yielded to their irresistible power. His voice invited the Arabs to freedom and victory, to arms and rapine, to the indulgence of their darling passions in this world and the other: the restraints which he imposed were requisite to establish the credit of the prophet, and to exercise the obedience of the people; and the only objection to his success was his rational creed of the unity and perfections of God. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 693)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


vizier n. hist. high official in some Muslim countries. [ultimately from Arabic] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)
- - - -


perfidy n. breach of faith; treachery.  perfidious adj. [Latin perfidia from fides faith] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)- - - -


pernicious adj. very harmful or destructive; deadly. [Latin pernicies ruin] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)

- - - -


1 - In some passages of his voluminous writings, Voltaire compares the prophet, in his old age, to a fakir "qui détache la chaîne de son cou pour en donner sur les oreilles à ses confrères."


fakir n. Muslim or (rarely) Hindu religious beggar or ascetic. [Arabic, = poor man] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)

ascetic —adj. severely abstinent; self-denying. —n. ascetic, esp. religious, person.  asceticism n. [Greek askeo exercise] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)
- - - -


libidinous adj. lustful. [Latin: related to *libido] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)- - - -


incontinent adj. 1 unable to control the bowels or bladder. 2 lacking self-restraint (esp. in sexual matters).  incontinence n. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)- - - -


rapine n. rhet. plundering. [Latin: related to *rape1] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)

- - -

Muhammed was a sinner. Many Muslims believe that he was sinless. However, he said this himself: "O Allah, set me apart from my sins..." [Hadith vol. 1, No. 711].

Your forthcoming apology for your lies needs to come first and then I'll consider whether I will accept it?

 

[Sahar]

Auto - where did you get the pictures of the women being stoned / buried alive? Did you just google images?

I believe this image is taken from a German movie and not a real one, I don't know about the other one, though.

What Auto is doing is nothing but unreasonable generalizations. I remember when I told her "I go to college and I can vote and drive cars", how she was shocked but it seems no matter what Muslims say, she will continue posting the same stuff over and over.

 

[Autodidact]

I believe this image is taken from a German movie and not a real one, I don't know about the other one, though.

What Auto is doing is nothing but unreasonable generalizations. I remember when I told her "I go to college and I can vote and drive cars", how she was shocked but it seems no matter what Muslims say, she will continue posting the same stuff over and over.

It's not that every Muslim country practices every one of these atrocities. .lava is fortunate enough to live in a secular country, where Sharia does not form the basis for the laws. To the extent that it does in other countries, you get more of this oppression, discrimination and injustice.

.lava: Do you disagree that in the most predominantly Muslim countries where the law is based on Sharia, women are denied these rights?

 

[Gharib]

Not at all, do you have a link though it sounds interesting and I can hear what ex-Muslems have to say instead of your empty claims?

I actually got my legitimate information from the Qu'ran, Hadiths and Historical records. e.g.

MAHOMET'S FLIGHT FROM MECCA TO MEDINA

(p. 673) - The first and most arduous conquests of Mahomet were those of his wife, his servant, his pupil, and his friend; since he presented himself as a prophet to those who were most conversant with his infirmities as a man.

(p.674) - . . . "Friends and kinsmen," said Mahomet to the assembly, "I offer you, and I alone can offer, the most precious of gifts, the treasures of this world and of the world to come. God has commanded me to call you to his service. Whom among you will support my burden? Who among you will be my companion and my vizar?"

No answer was returned, till the silence of astonishment, and doubt, and contempt was at length broken by the impatient courage of Ali, a youth in the fourteenth year of his age. "Oh prophet, I am the man: whosoever rises against thee, I will dash out his teeth, tear out his eyes, break his legs, rip up his belly. Oh prophet, I will be thy vizar over them." Mahomet accepted his offer with transport, and Abu Taleb was ironically exhorted to respect the superior dignity of his son. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, pp. 673-674) -

MAHOMET DECLARES WAR AGAINST THE INFIDEL

From all sides the roving Arabs were allured to the standard of religion and plunder: the apostle sanctified the licence of embracing the female captives as their wives or concubines; and the enjoyment of wealth and beauty was a feeble type of the joys of paradise prepared for the valiant martyrs of the faith. "The sword," says Mahomet, "is the key of heaven and of hell: a drop of blood shed in the cause of God, a night spent in arms, is of more avail than two months of fasting or prayer: whosoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven: at the day of judgment his wounds shall be resplendent as vermilion, and odoriferous as musk; and the loss of his limbs shall be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim." (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 679) -

THE CHARACTER AND PRIVATE LIFE OF MAHOMET

. . . The use of fraud and perfidy, of cruelty and injustice, were often subservient to the propagation of the faith; and Mahomet commanded or approved the assassination of the Jews and idolaters who had escaped from the field of battle. By the repetition of such acts the character of Mahomet must have been gradually stained; and the influence of such pernicious habits would be poorly compensated by the practice of the personal and social virtues which are necessary to maintain the reputation of a prophet among his secretaries and friends. Of his last years ambition was the ruling passion; and a politician will suspect that he secretly smiled (the victorious imposter!) at the enthusiasm of his youth, and the credulity of his proselytes.1 A philosopher will observe that their credulity and his success would tend more strongly to fortify the assurance of his divine mission, that his interest and religion were inseparably connected, and that his conscience would be soothed by the persuasion that he alone was absolved by the Deity from the obligation of positive and moral laws. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 690) -

Mahomet breaks his own Laws -

Perfumes and women were the two sensual enjoyments which his nature required, and his religion did not forbid; and Mahomet affirmed that the fervour of his devotion was increased by these innocent pleasures. The heat of the climate enflames the blood of the Arabs, and their libidinous complexion has been noticed by the writers of antiquity.

Their incontinence was regulated by the civil and religious laws of the Koran: their incestuous alliances were blamed: the boundless licence of polygamy was reduced to four legitimate wives or concubines; their rights of both bed and of dowry were equitably determined; the freedom of divorce was discouraged; adultery was condemned as a capital offence; and fornication, in either sex, was punished with an hundred stripes. Such were the calm and rational precepts of this legislator; but in his private conduct Mahomet indulged the appetites of a man, and abused the claims of a prophet. A special revelation dispensed him from the laws which he had imposed on his nation; the female sex, without reserve, was abandoned to his desires; and this singular prerogative excited the envy rather than the scandal, the veneration rather than the envy, of the devout Musulmans. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 691) -

INFLUENCE OF MAHOMET

Mahomet was instructed to preach and to fight; and the union of these opposite qualities, while it enhanced his merit, contributed to his success: the operation of force and persuasion, of enthusiasm and fear, continually acted on each other, till every barrier yielded to their irresistible power. His voice invited the Arabs to freedom and victory, to arms and rapine, to the indulgence of their darling passions in this world and the other: the restraints which he imposed were requisite to establish the credit of the prophet, and to exercise the obedience of the people; and the only objection to his success was his rational creed of the unity and perfections of God. (Extract from Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement, p. 693)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


vizier n. hist. high official in some Muslim countries. [ultimately from Arabic] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)
- - - -


perfidy n. breach of faith; treachery.  perfidious adj. [Latin perfidia from fides faith] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)- - - -


pernicious adj. very harmful or destructive; deadly. [Latin pernicies ruin] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)

- - - -


1 - In some passages of his voluminous writings, Voltaire compares the prophet, in his old age, to a fakir "qui détache la chaîne de son cou pour en donner sur les oreilles à ses confrères."


fakir n. Muslim or (rarely) Hindu religious beggar or ascetic. [Arabic, = poor man] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)

ascetic —adj. severely abstinent; self-denying. —n. ascetic, esp. religious, person.  asceticism n. [Greek askeo exercise] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)
- - - -


libidinous adj. lustful. [Latin: related to *libido] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)- - - -


incontinent adj. 1 unable to control the bowels or bladder. 2 lacking self-restraint (esp. in sexual matters).  incontinence n. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)- - - -


rapine n. rhet. plundering. [Latin: related to *rape1] (Pocket Oxford Dictionary)

- - -

Muhammed was a sinner. Many Muslims believe that he was sinless. However, he said this himself: "O Allah, set me apart from my sins..." [Hadith vol. 1, No. 711].

Your forthcoming apology for your lies needs to come first and then I'll consider whether I will accept it?

posting the same crap everywehre we go are we?

here's a random idea, why don't you ask muslims how true that sutff really is and whether it actually is true at all.

see one of your biggest faults is that you 'assume' things are the way you see it or the way they appear to be. another anti-islamist with personal issues against islam.