Should we fear Islam?

[Gharib]

He certainly thinks so, to my knowledge he has no formal qualifications in theology, As far as i know There is no hierarchical authority in Islam .

there is a hierachy order in islam, those with knowledge and those without it.

 

[sonofskeptish]

You should definitely fear leaving your child alone with a Catholic cleric. I doubt that any reasonable person would do so at this point.

Are you claiming that a small percentage of Muslims advocate terrorism, discriminate against women, and deny equal rights and freedoms to others?

I had something similar typed but didn't press post as things were flaming enough.

 

[kai]

there is a hierachy order in islam, those with knowledge and those without it.

Change that to include those that claim to have knowledge , Are there formal qualifications? How can Bin Laden issue Fatwas? what gives him the qualifications to do so ?

 

[McBell]

How can Bin Laden issue Fatwas? what gives him the qualifications to do so ?

That there are those who follow them?

 

[sonofskeptish]

\

btw, Is Osama Bin Laden educated and knowledgeable about the qur'an?

Yes, I'm guessing more than most muslims. From the Wikipedia link I posted earlier...

"Bin Laden was raised as a devout WahhabiMuslim.[9] From 1968 to 1976 he attended the "élite" secular Al-Thager Model School.[10] Bin Laden studied economics and business administration[11] at King Abdulaziz University. Some reports suggest bin Laden earned a degree in civil engineering in 1979,[12] or a degree in public administration in 1981.[13] Other sources describe him as having left university during his third year,[14] never completing a college degree, though "hard working."[15] At university, bin Laden's main interest was religion, where he was involved in both "interpreting the Quran and jihad" and charitable work.[16] He also writes poetry.[17]"

 

[McBell]

islamically speaking, thats how it is according to islamic law. the word 'muslim' reffers to 'one who has submitted to Allahs will

Again, says you.
Again: Why should your opinion carry so much weight?

so Allahs will is not to kill the rape victim, not to blow up innocent people etc etc,

Really?
So what about those Muslims that flat out disagree with you?
Oh yeah, their not real Muslims, right?
And if I were talking to them, what do you figure they would say?
That you are not a real Muslim.

I know!!
Believe that side that present verses from the Koran to support their side!!!
Good idea!
Damn right!

Uh oh...
What?
BOTH sides have presented verses from the Koran.

So which Muslim is the real Muslim and which Muslim is the fake Muslim?

Round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round.........

thus islamically speaking anyone who dissobeys Allah after accepting his will is a non-muslim at the time when he is commiting a crime that is not permited in islam.

But which Muslim is the fake Muslim and which Muslim is the real Muslim?
Back to the same round and round....

but that is not what i want non-muslims like yourself to accept. all i'm saying is that the acts performed by some muslims are non-islamic. muslims like all people have free will, we like all people do dissobey Allah and do un-islamic things. but don't hold islam responsible for those actions.

Well see, this might actually hold some water if it were not for the fact that there are a hugely disproportionately large number of suicide bombers who are Muslim.

let me know when i become a true scotsman.

really?
are you saying that you have no idea what a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy is?

if you are speaking about muslims doing bad things, yes i accept that, obviously. every muslim does bad things. some are doing bad things to others and some are doing it to themself.

I see.
But you ignore all links to Islam?

 

[kai]

Yes, I'm guessing more than most muslims. From the Wikipedia link I posted earlier...

"Bin Laden was raised as a devout WahhabiMuslim.[9] From 1968 to 1976 he attended the "élite" secular Al-Thager Model School.[10] Bin Laden studied economics and business administration[11] at King Abdulaziz University. Some reports suggest bin Laden earned a degree in civil engineering in 1979,[12] or a degree in public administration in 1981.[13] Other sources describe him as having left university during his third year,[14] never completing a college degree, though "hard working."[15] At university, bin Laden's main interest was religion, where he was involved in both "interpreting the Quran and jihad" and charitable work.[16] He also writes poetry.[17]"

why is any of that relevant to the issuing of fatwas? what i mean is, his degree is in engineering! what we have here is someone who claims to have studied the Quran and has interpreted it to justify his actions

 

[McBell]

your govenrment invades a country who does not have the same weapons as your does. so now just because the invaded country doesn't have f16's are you saying they are not allowed to kill your soldiers by other weapons like using bombs for example?

Nope.
However, you really need to stick to your self defense excuse.

and do you consider that to be the same as blowing up market places full of people?

Nope.
But then, you have yet again tried diverting from the whole self defense excuse.

mine doesn't. that of the scholars of islam does.

Yet here you are presenting YOUR opinions, not the opinions of scholars of Islam.
So now why are the opinions of those whom you agree with carry so much more weight than the opinions of those whom you disagree with?

whats the point, she calls non-islamic practices islamic even after i have given her the correct islamic teachings.

She has explained numerous times why your opinions of the Koran, Hadith, etc. are irrelevant.
You just refuse to understand or accept or comprehend or whatever the reasons she gives.
Thus your "discussion" with her goes no where.

 

[McBell]

what we have here is someone who claims to have studied the Quran and has interpreted it to justify his actions

Just like countless other religious leaders the world over.

the fact of the matter is that you may well never know the truth of how much Bin Laden has read the Koran, Hadith, and any of their other holy writings.

What does his reading/studying the Koran have to do with the fact that he is a Muslim leader?

 

[sonofskeptish]

why is any of that relevant to the issuing of fatwas? what i mean is, his degree is in engineering! what we have here is someone who claims to have studied the Quran and has interpreted it to justify his actions

Your right, the center part of the paragraph is not relevant, but the start and end parts are (IMO). Didn't want to edit the quote. And it was not on the topic of issuing fatwas, it was in response to the question...

"Is Osama Bin Laden educated and knowledgeable about the qur'an?"

 

[kai]

Heres my point

Bin Laden May well have read and studied the Quran. But as there's no priesthood in Islam No theological colleges no supreme authority. His word for it and the suggestion that he has, is all that makes him able to issue fatwas saying that it is acceptable to kill civilians. I suggest that anyone can call themselves learned in the Quran and interpret it to justify their actions and many do.

 

[kai]

Just like countless other religious leaders the world over.

the fact of the matter is that you may well never know the truth of how much Bin Laden has read the Koran, Hadith, and any of their other holy writings.

What does his reading/studying the Koran have to do with the fact that he is a Muslim leader?

Do you think he would be a Muslim leader if he didnt use religion to justify his acts? He is set up as a Sheik issuing Fatwas its hard to do that without at least claiming to have read the Quran

 

[McBell]

Do you think he would be a Muslim leader if he didnt use religion to justify his acts? He is set up as a Sheik issuing Fatwas its hard to do that without at least claiming to have read the Quran

Likely not.
And?
I do not understand what his level of knowledge (or complete lack of knowledge) of the koran has to do with his being a religious leader.

 

[kai]

Likely not.
And?
I do not understand what his level of knowledge (or complete lack of knowledge) of the koran has to do with his being a religious leader.

I accept he is a religious leader but i question his credibility as a religious leader.

 

[McBell]

I accept he is a religious leader but i question his credibility as a religious leader.

huh?
what does a person has to have to be a religious leader other than religious followers?

 

[kai]

huh?
what does a person has to have to be a religious leader other than religious followers?

That depends on the credibility of the religious leader in question doesn't it , Bin Laden has a small number of followers. The correlation between the numbers of followers and his credibility are related. If he was such a learned spokesman on the Quran as he makes out, he would have a lot more followers amongst Muslims.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I don't call people like Bin Laden religious leaders, I call them misusers of religion. Only a person who practices what their religion actually teaches has the right to be called religious.

 

[Gharib]

Do you think he would be a Muslim leader if he didnt use religion to justify his acts? He is set up as a Sheik issuing Fatwas its hard to do that without at least claiming to have read the Quran

let me ask you something, do you think that if someone who reads the quran, just reads it, is able to issue fatwas?

 

[Gharib]

That depends on the credibility of the religious leader in question doesn't it , Bin Laden has a small number of followers. The correlation between the numbers of followers and his credibility are related. If he was such a learned spokesman on the Quran as he makes out, he would have a lot more followers amongst Muslims.

yes he would if he spoke the true islamic teachings, he speaks ignorance so only the ignorant are following him.

 

[Gharib]

Change that to include those that claim to have knowledge , Are there formal qualifications? How can Bin Laden issue Fatwas? what gives him the qualifications to do so ?

yes there are formal qualifications. almost every middle eastern country has atleast one religious school like egypts Al Azhar.

he doesn't issue fawtwas, he issues ignorance, thats why only the ignorant are following him.

to issue a fatwa one needs the aproval of the scholars, that is usually gained by studying at an islamic institution where the scholars are the teachers in other words to get a qualification. then if for some reason you issue missguiding fatwas or do un-islamic things other scholars dissaprove of them.

as i posted earlier:
Islam Online- News Section