Should we fear Islam?

[Gharib]

Fear Islam? .. No, but rather fear those who practice violence in the name of Islam.

can you please re-write this in bold and in capital letters once more so Autodidcat can see it.

 

[challupa]

I think the problem is this. Saudia Arabia "thinks" it is a muslim country that follows the laws of the Quran. It says it is and that is what the west sees as an example of a Muslim country. I realize they practice one of the strictest and least practiced form of Islam, but that doesn't mean they don't think they are right in their interpretation of the Quran. I do fear their interpretation of the Quran. I don't fear lava's or Esalem's interpretation. When the Wahhabi sect of Saudi say their interpretation is right and their country has one of the worst human rights records on earth, most people see that and they then do fear Islam. I hope I have explained myself okay.

 

[Autodidact]

According to the latest numbers from Pew, support for Osama bin Hidin' has dropped off markedly in Muslim Majority countries.
Auto's percentages are off their mark by a few years, as the article is circa 2001.

Tsk, tsk.

Yes, this is correct; my info is old. Isn't that great? Interesting, too.

 

[Autodidact]

can you please re-write this in bold and in capital letters once more so Autodidcat can see it.

O.K., what gives you the authority to decide that your version of Islam is the true one, and "those who practice violence in the name of Islam" the false one?

Don't say it's scholars, because there are hundreds of scholars who agree with the other side. So if they say their version of Islam is correct, do you have authority to say different?

 

[Autodidact]

see muslim suicide bombers once again. a muslim who goes against the will of Allah is not a muslim, the definition of the word muslims means one who as submitted to Allahs will. you still don't get it though.

No, it is not. Words mean what people commonly use them to mean. The rest of us have no way to know whether someone is submitting to Allah's will (especially if we don't believe there is any such thing.) So the common use of the word "Muslim," is one who believes he is submitting to Allah's will.

Call them so-called Muslims and so-called Islam, I don't care, can we move on to the real problem, which is that there are 39 dead Muscovites, killed by so-called Muslims acting on behalf of so-called Islam? O.K.--should we fear and combat that? Absolutely.

Of course, eselam has no time to feel compassion for their families; he's too busy defending his so-called religion.

i am not a prophet, please don't call me that.

Then stop speaking on behalf of Allah as though you were.

islam is not what every individual person wills and does, that is what i am explaining to you. islam is what Allah has said it is and a muslim is someone who submits to Allah. but like all people muslims too dissobey and do things that are unpleasant to Allh and are against his will. thus anyone who does this is not a muslim at the time that he/she does it.

But of course, no two so-called Muslims can agree on what that is. Every so-called Muslim has to figure it out for him or her self. You're doing your best to do that, using all the resources you have, including scholars you respect, and so were the two suicide bombers who killed themselves and 39 Moscow civilians last week. You believe they're mistaken. They believe you're mistaken. And it is not my responsibility or right to figure out which of you is right.

ok prove it that muslims kill innocent people because the quran says so. or prove it that the hadith say so.

Start a thread to discuss this with your fellow so-called Muslims; I'm not qualified to discuss it.

so first you say they do it because of the quran then you go on saying you don't know what the quran commands. thank you Auto

I don't believe I've said anything yet about why they do it. That's the question--why do they? You said it was ignorance, but then you said so-called Muslims are no more ignorant than non-Muslims, so that can't be it. Why do you think so-called Muslims do these things? Let's take suicide bombing as a first example. I think we all agree that's bad; and >90% of is done by so-called Muslims. Why do you think that is? How are they different from non-Muslims?

 

[England my lionheart]

Esalam Quotek prove it that muslims kill innocent people because the quran says so. or prove it that the hadith say so.

Thats so easy Esalam,look no further than the Hamas Charter

 

[McBell]

ah this is what you are on about the problem. there is only one islam, the islam of the quran and hadith you either accept it or you don't. that is all that is needed. so getting back to bin laden the hadith of the prophet say not to kill unarmed people which is the elderly, women and children mostly. do you want to see the hadith?

further more, if in the battle field anyone from the enemie declares the Shahada, the he must not be harmed. do you want to see the hadith that says this?

Now you are merely singing the same old song and dance as Christians who claim there is only one Christianity.

the EXACT SAME song and dance.
Now the question is... Are you in the same denial as they are....?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Islam does not call for fundamentalism and blind adherence. Don't listen to some Muslims like esalam. Each individual Muslim is entitled to use their god-given reason and logic to determine how they practice Islam. Muhammad said that the blood of a scholar is more precious then the blood of a martyr.

 

[Gharib]

O.K., what gives you the authority to decide that your version of Islam is the true one, and "those who practice violence in the name of Islam" the false one?

Don't say it's scholars, because there are hundreds of scholars who agree with the other side. So if they say their version of Islam is correct, do you have authority to say different?

the only "version" of islam is the quran, hadith and sunnah. anything that is against this is wrong. no one has more authority than the quran and the hadith. that is where the teachings of islam come from.

do you want to see a hadith that prohibits killing innocent people?

 

[Gharib]

Islam does not call for fundamentalism and blind adherence. Don't listen to some Muslims like esalam. Each individual Muslim is entitled to use their god-given reason and logic to determine how they practice Islam. Muhammad said that the blood of a scholar is more precious then the blood of a martyr.

so you're saying islam teaches that every lay person may interprete the quran and hadith to what they see fit? if you think that, then does the name Osama Bin Laden ring a bell?

 

[Gharib]

Esalam Quotek prove it that muslims kill innocent people because the quran says so. or prove it that the hadith say so.

Thats so easy Esalam,look no further than the Hamas Charter

whats the hammas charter?

 

[England my lionheart]

whats the hammas charter?

The Hammas Charter/Covenant sets out the aims of Hamas as regards the destruction of Israel,in it there are Quranic and ahadith references.

 

[Autodidact]

the only "version" of islam is the quran, hadith and sunnah. anything that is against this is wrong. no one has more authority than the quran and the hadith. that is where the teachings of islam come from.

Who decides what is and is not against this?

do you want to see a hadith that prohibits killing innocent people?

Start a thread is you want to discuss that.

 

[England my lionheart]

whats the hammas charter?

Heres a snippit for you Esalam from article 7 of the Charter:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against
the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al
Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to
reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the
Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the
Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by
those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the
continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation
of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him
and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the
Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O
Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad
tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of​

the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Scary stuff eh

 

[Gharib]

Heres a snippit for you Esalam from article 7 of the Charter:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against
the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al
Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to
reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the
Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the
Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by
those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the
continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation
of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him
and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the
Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O
Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad
tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of​

the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Scary stuff eh

but this doesn't says that islam permits killing innocent people.

 

[challupa]

but this doesn't says that islam permits killing innocent people.

Killing the Jews is not killing innocent people??

 

[Gharib]

Killing the Jews is not killing innocent people??

no killing the innocent jews is killing the innocent people.

killing the jews who are in the batlefield is not equal to killing the innocent people.

Challupa, please remember that the hadith and quranic verses have much more to them than what meets the eye. if you are a honest person and don't like ignorance and falsewhood then please do not interpret any hadith nor any quranic verse, just like i am not.

here is an example for you that there is more to a hadith than what meets the eye. please tell me what you make of the following hadith:

I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection." (Bukhari: 6-61:577)

what do you think of it?

 

[Ahmad Rushd]

Islam claims its founder to be the Creator of universe, the God of Abraham, its holy book is believed to be eternal the copy of the one Qur'an which is up there in heaven. The pure Islam is believed to be the Mohammad's time Islam & the Caliphate time. What is the Mohammad and Caliphate time Islam, how does it look like? History bears witness, it was (………..….…) that conquered the Middle East, North, West, East Africa, Asia Minor (Turkey), Spain, Central Asia, Northwestern India much of the known world by Sword, if the West did not become powerful, I suspect Muslims, who followed Islam the way Mohammad and his Sahabas (companions) which brought the much of the known world under Islam by the red blood sword, would have continued to (………) mankind. Just as Christians who long for the apostle time Christianity and try, some utmostly try to follow it Muslims do also long for the Islam of Mohammad and Caliphate time and try, many utmostly, try to follow it. You can't transform Islam into peaceful religion because its true face, the 7th century Islam, was a religion of (…….): Qur'an9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. This is one of the last commands, revelations of Allah to Muslims. Another INhumane command 9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an
Quran 2:85: Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts? What, then, could be the reward of those among you who do such things but ignominy in the life of this world and, on the Day of Resurrection; they will be consigned to most grievous suffering? For God is not unmindful of what you do.” The place of wrongdoers is in the Blazing fire or burning Hell, therefore this verse compels Muslims to obey all the verses and commands of the Qur'an. Here are the Word of Allah, the words of Allah made text:
5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise.
"Unbelievers are those who do no judge according to God's revelations. We decreed for them a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and a wound for a wound" The Table #43-
9:23, O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends1. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers." The Table (5) #51. (Response 1, 2)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Victory 48:29
9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an
9:123, O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
More verses against Non-Muslims or Unbelievers:
2:191, And slay them wherever ye catch them
2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself
9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.
9:14, Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers
25:52, So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavour.
25:68 ”Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. “(But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,-
37:22-23, “Bring ye up”, it shall be said, “The wrong-doers and their wives, and the things they worshipped- Besides Allah, and lead them to the Way to the (Fierce) Fire!
47:4, Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.
48:13 And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!
8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.
Quran 5:50 "Do they then seek the legislation of (the Days of) Ignorance? And who is better in legislating than Allah for a people who have Faith."

Quran 5:45 "And whoever rules not by what Allah has revealed, those are the wrongdoers."
Quran 12:40 "The rule is only for Allah."

Quran 18:26 "And He (Allah) allows none to share in his rule."

 

[Ahmad Rushd]

8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.
This is one of the last commands, revelations of Allah to Muslims. Another INhumane command 9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an
Due to this verse we have Muslimah and Muslim Suicide Bombers who are quite sure that getting killed for Allah's way and killing unbelievers they end up in Paradise (even innocent people, because they think they do service to Allah even in killing innocent people because Allah hates Unbelievers (kafirs), thus by killing the unbelievers they remove annoyance to Allah). The Qur'an is believed to be the Will of Allah, every Muslim loves to do the will of Allah.
8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.
The above verse 8:39 means that Muslims must fight Non-Muslims until there is no distraction to the Muslim faith and until the Muslim’s concept of justice and faith prevails wherever the Muslims live, let say Canada, Canadian people must be fought until the Muslim’s concept of justice and the Muslim faith prevails in Canada. The problem with Islam is that Allah claims to be the Creator of mankind so He orders Muslims to crush down the Non-Muslim cultures, values, faiths, histories (which together form a Non-Muslim Civilization), government systems and install Allah’s perfect religion (Islam), Allah’s way- the Sharia Law in all Non-Muslims countries. Isn’t this a clash of Civilizations, the Clash of Islam with the Civilizations of the world? Allah tells to Muslims that YOUR kingdom is MY kingdom or MY kingdom is of this world. After the journey of the Qur’an and the examples of Muhammad (Hadiths), one comes to the conclusion that Allah strives for worldwide political dominance thus converting the World into World-Wide Islamic Empire under Caliphate, the Rule is for Allah, when Muslims conquer a Non-Muslim State what they do with its Constitution?:
Quran 5:50 "Do they then seek the legislation of (the Days of) Ignorance? And who is better in legislating than Allah for a people who have Faith."

Quran 5:45 "And whoever rules not by what Allah has revealed, those are the wrongdoers."
Quran 12:40 "The rule is only for Allah."

Quran 18:26 "And He (Allah) allows none to share in his rule."
Those who think I am overstating, I ask them to read the 7-9th century, because that is the pure Islam, just as Christians who long for Apostlic Christianity, Muslims too long for the Caliphate Islam or the Mohammad's time Islam, Mohammand himself as the prophet of Allah led the Muslim Army in conquering the Arabian Penansuella

 

[Ahmad Rushd]

If the 7th-9th century Islam did not conquer much of the known world as a means to propogate Islam, I would have agreed with you that there is much more to the Qur'an and Hadis. But the Qur'an is very clear, just read the below veses:
9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. As the Quran is believed to till the Day of Judgment, there is no way to say that those verses are only for the 7th century Islam, Islam was supposed to convert all mankind first via conquiering (war), then as Muslims are kings of subdued lands via imposing of Jizah, threats...
9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an
9:123, O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
More verses against Non-Muslims or Unbelievers:
2:191, And slay them wherever ye catch them
2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself
9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.
9:14, Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers
25:52, So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavour.
25:68 ”Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. “(But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,-
37:22-23, “Bring ye up”, it shall be said, “The wrong-doers and their wives, and the things they worshipped- Besides Allah, and lead them to the Way to the (Fierce) Fire!
47:4, Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.
48:13 And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!
8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.
Quran 5:50 "Do they then seek the legislation of (the Days of) Ignorance? And who is better in legislating than Allah for a people who have Faith."

Quran 5:45 "And whoever rules not by what Allah has revealed, those are the wrongdoers."
Quran 12:40 "The rule is only for Allah."

Quran 18:26 "And He (Allah) allows none to share in his rule."