Should we fear Islam?

[stiletto]

what makes you so sure marriage of a Prophet was based on sexuality? he was a Prophet, a leader. he was not here to have fun. he had a duty therefor he did not get to chose anything for his own. he did not chose Aisha AS as wife either. she was chosen by God for a reason and that reason has nothing to do with sexuality. that's your assumption based on what you see here and now. he was not pedophile and Aisha AS was definitely not abused by Prophet. that's ridicules to claim that. as i said, Aisha AS did not have a child. noone could say she did not die as a virgin. or are you willing to accuse people by making blind assumptions and pretend as if you witness a thing yourself? there are similar marriages in history, all for political reasons. a king at 30 years old gets married with 5 year old but that is not to say he is a pedophile. it is only a political move to bring peace between two kingdoms and such. are you going to ignore these facts as well? and how are you going to explain how come Prophet did not have many wives at young age? all of his wives were older than 50 when he married with them. he was a leader, people would do anything for him. then why did not have young wives while he could? i guess you don't get to consider this because you just can not accpet the possibility that he was in fact Prophet of God so you are trying to explain everything about him as if he was an ordinary man, well he was not. no ordinary men would be able to make billion follow him after 14 centuries

.

I don't care if he is an ordinary man or you think he is the prophet of god, if he put his old penis in her 9-year-old vagina to consummate the marriage, then he is a pedophile.

 

[Autodidact]

Bingo! stiletto hit it on the nose.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

When applying standards inconsistently doesn't result in cognitive dissonance, you may want to reconsider your beliefs.

 

[.lava]

I don't care if he is an ordinary man or you think he is the prophet of god, if he put his old penis in her 9-year-old vagina to consummate the marriage, then he is a pedophile.

it is your imagination and expectation

.

 

[stiletto]

it is your imagination and expectation

.

I don't know what else I am supposed to imagine when a 50-year-old man penetrates a 9-year-old girl. Perhaps it is your imagination and expectation which prohibits you from seeing this as pedophilia, but I cannot imagine this as anything but. It is not my expectation... it is my demand that any god I'd worship does not have sex with little girls.

 

[.lava]

I don't know what else I am supposed to imagine when a 50-year-old man penetrates a 9-year-old girl. Perhaps it is your imagination and expectation which prohibits you from seeing this as pedophilia, but I cannot imagine this as anything but.

as i said, you are talking about traditions of 6th century. yes, back then girls used to get marry very young. before Islam they did not even care for girls. they used to bury them alive as babies. since female gender was not given enough value, they did not have birth certificate either. a girl used to be perceived at age of marriage when she start having her period because that's what makes a female "able to produce" and that's what they thought what "mature enough" is. i follow my society of today. they followed their society back then. they changed society for better, though you are blind to it. and yes, it is your choice not to see those times by considering conditions of that era. you ignore the facts of that time and trying to judge 1400 years old traditions from this time of Earth. all the girls got married at similar age. as i mentioned it before, Aisha AS was engaged with another man before him. because according to their traditions she was at proper age to marry

.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

as i said, you are talking about traditions of 6th century. yes, back then girls used to get marry very young. before Islam they did not even care for girls. they used to bury them alive as babies. since female gender was not given enough value, they did not have birth certificate either. a girl used to be perceived at age of marriage when she start having her period because that's what makes a female "able to produce" and that's what they thought what "mature enough" is. i follow my society of today. they followed their society back then. they changed society for better, though you are blind to it. and yes, it is your choice not to see those times by considering conditions of that era. you ignore the facts of that time and trying to judge 1400 years old traditions from this time of Earth. all the girls got married at similar age. as i mentioned it before, Aisha AS was engaged with another man before him. because according to their traditions she was at proper age to marry

.

But just because that was their way back then, that doesn't make it right.

 

[.lava]

But just because that was their way back then, that doesn't make it right.

what is that suppose to mean?
if you are willing to talk about 6th century of Arabia, sorry friend, but you have to consider their traditions and conditions of that era. if in where i live, everyone was getting married at age 16 for example, if age 25 was considered as very old to be married with and if i refused to get married at certain age maybe that would not be very good thing for my future. you may change society for better but you can't break it like a piece of wood. Islam did change many things, though none of them happened over a night. it could not happen over a night. noone expects anyone to adopt 6th century's traditions. each person needs to go with his own nations rules and such. in my society girls expected to go university before marriage because we think girls should be financially independant. so all the girls used to get married after they begin to have their period. not just one girl. all of them. that was tradition back then, like it or not. you can't ignore region and its traditions

.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

what is that suppose to mean?
if you are willing to talk about 6th century of Arabia, sorry friend, but you have to consider their traditions and conditions of that era. if in where i live, everyone was getting married at age 16 for example, if age 25 was considered as very old to be married with and if i refused to get married at certain age maybe that would not be very good thing for my future. you may change society for better but you can't break it like a piece of wood. Islam did change many things, though none of them happened over a night. it could not happen over a night. noone expects anyone to adopt 6th century's traditions. each person needs to go with his own nations rules and such. in my society girls expected to go university before marriage because we think girls should be financially independant. so all the girls used to get married after they begin to have their period. not just one girl. all of them. that was tradition back then, like it or not. you can't ignore region and its traditions

.

Well, then look at the Salem Witch Trials. Many innocent women endured horrific deaths in the name of god.
Look at the early aztec and mayan civilizations, routinely practiced human sacrifice, again in the name of (a) god.
How about Jepthah in the Old Testament book of Judges (11th Chapter). He won a great victory for Israel and told god that he'd sacrifice the first thing he saw when he returned home. The first thing he saw was his daughter and he obediently roasted her.

Are we to look at these events, shrug our shoulders, and say, "Oh, you know. That's just their way." or should we view them for the atrocities they really are.

Now, look at Muhammed. He married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her at age 9. You can try to justify it by saying that it was the tradition of the time. It doesn't change a single thing. It was a crime then (regardless of their traditions) and it is still a crime today.

 

[stiletto]

as i said, you are talking about traditions of 6th century. yes, back then girls used to get marry very young. before Islam they did not even care for girls. they used to bury them alive as babies. since female gender was not given enough value, they did not have birth certificate either. a girl used to be perceived at age of marriage when she start having her period because that's what makes a female "able to produce" and that's what they thought what "mature enough" is. i follow my society of today. they followed their society back then. they changed society for better, though you are blind to it. and yes, it is your choice not to see those times by considering conditions of that era. you ignore the facts of that time and trying to judge 1400 years old traditions from this time of Earth. all the girls got married at similar age. as i mentioned it before, Aisha AS was engaged with another man before him. because according to their traditions she was at proper age to marry.

An all knowing god would know that having sex with a young child is wrong in ANY time period, regardless of traditions of the time (unless of course he was not a god or prophet and instead just a horny 6th century pedophile). Taking moral direction from someone who doesn't know this is absurd and vile. As for it being acceptable in ancient times, this is irrelevant, but even so, Mohammed would be a pedophile even by ancient standards... in Roman times the age of marriage was 14-15, Ottoman Empire 12-17, Ancient Egypt 12+, Ancient Greece 14-16, 10th Century Europe 14-16, etc.

 

[.lava]

An all knowing god would know that having sex with a young child is wrong in ANY time period, regardless of traditions of the time (unless of course he was not a god or prophet and instead just a horny 6th century pedophile). Taking moral direction from someone who doesn't know this is absurd and vile. As for it being acceptable in ancient times, this is irrelevant, but even so, Mohammed would be a pedophile even by ancient standards... in Roman times the age of marriage was 14-15, Ottoman Empire 12-17, Ancient Egypt 12+, Ancient Greece 14-16, 10th Century Europe 14-16, etc.

he was a Prophet of God and he would not do anything to hurt and he would not damage any human being emotionally. he would only do what's right and proper. simply because he was a Prophet of God. you may not believe it but i do

.

 

[aymen amir]

MOHAMMED(pbuh) is our prophet hez shoe is cleaner than any one walking this earth surface weather you like or not what ever he did its the right thing no matter what you think and no matter what your media teaches you HE is the most noble man known to humanity.

you people aren't even qualified to talk about him (non-Muslims)

 

[Gharib]

[SIZE=+1]Prophet Muhammad - The Most Influential Man in History[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]from the book by Michael Hart[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The following is from Michael Hart's book and lists Prophet Muhammad as the most influential man in History. A Citadel Press Book, published by Carol Publishing Group[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ranking of the twenty from the list of 100:[/SIZE]

1. [SIZE=-1]Prophet Muhammad[/SIZE]
2. [SIZE=-1]Isaac Newton[/SIZE]
3. [SIZE=-1]Jesus Christ[/SIZE]
4. [SIZE=-1]Buddha[/SIZE]
5. [SIZE=-1]Confucius[/SIZE]
6. [SIZE=-1]St. Paul[/SIZE]
7. [SIZE=-1]Ts'ai Lun[/SIZE]
8. [SIZE=-1]Johann Gutenberg[/SIZE]
9. [SIZE=-1]Christopher Columbus[/SIZE]
10. [SIZE=-1]Albert Einstein[/SIZE]
11. [SIZE=-1]Karl Marx[/SIZE]
12. [SIZE=-1]Louis Pasteur[/SIZE]
13. [SIZE=-1]Galileo Galilei[/SIZE]
14. [SIZE=-1]Aristotle[/SIZE]
15. [SIZE=-1]Lenin[/SIZE]
16. [SIZE=-1]Moses[/SIZE]
17. [SIZE=-1]Charles Darwin[/SIZE]
18. [SIZE=-1]Shih Huang Ti[/SIZE]
19. [SIZE=-1]Augustus Caesar[/SIZE]
20. [SIZE=-1]Mao Tse-tung[/SIZE]

go here to read more
Prophet Muhammad as the most influential man in History

ignorance, ignorance go away.

 

[Gharib]

you guys are aware that we are speaking of a past that is over 1400 years old, right?

some facts from my home country:

kids drive at the age of 8 that includes other modes of transport than just cars, trucks, buldozers etc. even though it is not permitted by law, it is a democratic country.
some of those in my generation got married at the age of 15, both girls and boys. straigt after year 8.
kids in my home country are more mentally and physically mature than kids in any first world country.

anyone see the point i'm making?

anyone going to respond to this? anyone know the point i'm making? Autodidact obviously doesn't understand it so i'm counting on the rest of you guys (non-muslims that is).

 

[Autodidact]

it is your imagination and expectation

.

What do you mean? Muslims in this thread are confusing the heck out of me. Is he supposed to have done this or not? Please clarify.

 

[Autodidact]

as i said, you are talking about traditions of 6th century. yes, back then girls used to get marry very young. before Islam they did not even care for girls. they used to bury them alive as babies. since female gender was not given enough value, they did not have birth certificate either. a girl used to be perceived at age of marriage when she start having her period because that's what makes a female "able to produce" and that's what they thought what "mature enough" is. i follow my society of today. they followed their society back then. they changed society for better, though you are blind to it. and yes, it is your choice not to see those times by considering conditions of that era. you ignore the facts of that time and trying to judge 1400 years old traditions from this time of Earth. all the girls got married at similar age. as i mentioned it before, Aisha AS was engaged with another man before him. because according to their traditions she was at proper age to marry

.

That is sickening, and so are the actions of this so-called Prophet, but even more sickening is that being raised on this sickening story and trained to accept it has so dulled your moral sense that you're actually defending it. I'm sorry, there is no way that it is moral to rape a 9-year old girl, and no way that having sex with a 9-year old girl is not raping her.

Well yes, it may be slightly better than killing her at birth, but that's about the best you can say for it.

 

[Gharib]

we're back at the beggining, can a muslim please explain to autodidact whats being going on? oh right i'm a muslim, and i did aready explain whats going on. this is just her way of riding the merry go round.

 

[Autodidact]

what is that suppose to mean?
if you are willing to talk about 6th century of Arabia, sorry friend, but you have to consider their traditions and conditions of that era. if in where i live, everyone was getting married at age 16 for example, if age 25 was considered as very old to be married with and if i refused to get married at certain age maybe that would not be very good thing for my future. you may change society for better but you can't break it like a piece of wood. Islam did change many things, though none of them happened over a night. it could not happen over a night. noone expects anyone to adopt 6th century's traditions. each person needs to go with his own nations rules and such. in my society girls expected to go university before marriage because we think girls should be financially independant. so all the girls used to get married after they begin to have their period. not just one girl. all of them. that was tradition back then, like it or not. you can't ignore region and its traditions

.

No, you don't. This is your so-called prophet, who is supposed to model good behavior for all time! All you have to do is consider for just a moment the feelings of a little girl, a 9-year old girl, her suffering and confusion--it's horrible. It makes me feel like crying to go back in time and feel compassion for this little girl, and the criminal who perpetrated this crime is the founder of your religion! I'm appalled. That is just so horrible. There is not excuse, not if you're the Pope, not if you're Muhammed, there is no excuse for raping a little girl.

I hope no Muslim never has the audacity again to try to tell me that the caring, respectful, tender love I share with V. is immoral, all the while elevating a sexual criminal as the prophet of God.

I better stop typing before I start violating forum rules.

 

[Gharib]

What do you mean? Muslims in this thread are confusing the heck out of me. Is he supposed to have done this or not? Please clarify.

That is sickening, and so are the actions of this so-called Prophet, but even more sickening is that being raised on this sickening story and trained to accept it has so dulled your moral sense that you're actually defending it. I'm sorry, there is no way that it is moral to rape a 9-year old girl, and no way that having sex with a 9-year old girl is not raping her.

Well yes, it may be slightly better than killing her at birth, but that's about the best you can say for it.

CONTRADICTION!!!

 

[Autodidact]

he was a Prophet of God and he would not do anything to hurt and he would not damage any human being emotionally. he would only do what's right and proper. simply because he was a Prophet of God. you may not believe it but i do

.

Sorry, prophet or not, raping little girls is not right or proper, no matter who does it. It's wrong if eselam does it, and it's wrong if Muhammed does it. It's just plain wrong, period. It's a crime.

This is really teaching me something about how being brain-washed into a religious meme as a child warps someone's moral sense. You're actually telling us that you believe it was right and proper for a middle-aged man to rape a child! No, we don't believe it, because we are normal people with a moral sense that has not been distorted by religious indoctrination.

I have learned so much about Islam in the last few weeks, and the more I learn, the more appalled I am by it. This discussion is really throwing me all the way into the Richard Dawkins camp. If religion can persuade you that pedophilia is justified ever, under any circumstance, then religion itself is evil and needs to be combatted and eradicated.

I am not saying this for rhetorical reasons; I'm sincere. This RF discussion has taught me an important lesson, and changed my views permanently.

As for the OP--should we fear Islam? You bet your *** we should! We should fear any teaching that justifies child-rape.