Some Mormon missionaries tried to talk to me.

[Grumpuss]

No, no, no - that's not how this works. There is no evidence whatsoever that their beliefs are any more true than mine, and as they are coming to my home, their assumption holds no ground. If I came to their church, maybe, but they're on my turf.

And it's not irrelevant, when as you so sardonically asked for, they are telling me that I am wrong in my home. Not the best PR campaign.

Respectfully, I disagree. You were invited to learn. You may choose not to, but not answering the door, or upon hearing what the message is- closing your door. That is your right.

Free exchange of ideas is not wrong and should never, ever be discouraged.

You really haven't been paying attention.


A.) That is not a strawman, it is a response to your ridiculously presumptuous and arrogant attitude; look up logical fallacies and familiarize yourself with them if you're going to start hurling them about.
B.) You have zero clue what I have done, how often I am solicited, or how I handle things. Further displaying hypocrisy in that this very behavior is what you have accused and admonished us for. We may live close to one another, but you have no more clue of my life than the pests pushing your god door-to-door.
C.) You didn't give me a reason to continue playing civil.

Chill out.

Your - and their - rights end where another's begin. Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion only means that one cannot be imprisoned for exercising those things; it does not mean "I can intrude upon you with my speech and beliefs and you can't stop me and you're wrong to become annoyed at my doing so."

A right to free speech also means that we can tell people who intrude on our time and beliefs to sod off in whatever way we want - your offense to our handling of "a couple Mormon (and Jehovah's Witness) kids" matters less than nothing.

You know what's really sad, though? We'd be arrested for disturbing the peace if we were to come to a church and speak our mind. You know, similar to what these people are doing. See examples here, here, here, and here. So much for free speech, right?

Respectfully, I disagree. No one is forcing their beliefs upon you.

You are, when you make us out to be "the bad guy" for being intruded upon - yes, that is exactly what it is - and showing irritation at constant badgering from your "brothers and sisters". You especially are when you assume and assert that we're lying just to "make a point". But this is all par for the course; you lot think you're so right, why would you listen and learn from we poor god-less souls?

Respectfully, I disagree. At the heart of your confusion is what the definition of "intrusion" is. No one is forcing their way into your house, or ideas into your ears.

Which is ironic, really, as isn't that what you encouraged us to do? Share and talk? Fat chance, when you're just going to treat us like we're lying and use it as a shoe-in for "your truth". Thank you, I suppose, for perfectly illustrating our point.

What is this us vs. them mentality? I'm not a Mormon or Jehovah's Witnesses and don't share any characteristics with them, other than being a Christian. You're not part of some class-action group of victims seeking relief either. You're just mildly annoyed that someone had the gaul to express ideas with which you disagree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't get what the big deal is. A couple kids try to share something they believe in because, among other things, they think it's improved their life. What's so wrong about that?

That's what you see. I see kids who are pushed into an unpaid sales job for 2 years by family and social expectations.

And there's more to the ethics of proselytizing than just the motives of the proselytizer. The kids who show up at my door selling natural gas contracts are mostly motivated to pay for school, but they're still furthering a scam.

If you're not interested just say, "No thank you," and move along.

The worst I've ever said to an LDS missionary was "you shouldn't be doing this." That was for the two missionaries who were bothering people on a transit bus who worked their way down the bus, ignoring the refusals of the people on the bus who had no option to leave.

Just because someone has a low opinion of proselytizing doesn't mean they'll take their frustrations out on a Mormon missionary.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Respectfully, I disagree.

Oh, respectfully this time? That's a change.

You were invited to learn.

Yeah, the first time. Second time around is irksome, and the third is downright harassment. Just as my rights include closing the door, they also include telling such annoyances off - and you've given no sound reason to do otherwise.

Chill out.

No, actually, I won't. You're making false accusations and claims against me - hypocritically, I might add again - and I am going to speak out against them. You have no clue what we have or have not done, and you are absolutely in the wrong to treat our opinions and testimonies on the matter with such arrogance.

No one is forcing their beliefs upon you.

While no one is forcing me to convert (yet), they are still undeniably intruding on my home to spread their ideology. Which is the entire point, though you've tried hell-or-high-water to make it about something else.

At the heart of your confusion is what the definition of "intrusion" is.

Has it interrupted my day? Yes, most certainly. Have they made attempts to tear down, challenge, or slight my way of life in my own home? Absolutely. Are they going somewhere where they and their ideas are not wanted? Most certainly. By every definition of the word, it is an intrusion. You, on the other hand, confuse intrusion with invasion. Here, let me define it for you:

in•trude v

1. to go or be somewhere where you are not wanted or are not supposed to be
I'm sorry to intrude, but I need to talk to someone.
Legislation to stop newspapers from intruding on people's private lives.
2. to disturb something or somebody or have an unpleasant effect upon them
The sound of the telephone intruded into his dreams

(source: the Oxford English Dictionary)

What is this us vs. them mentality?

Christians vs. Non-Christians. I know, you haven't been paying attention. But of course this doesn't bother you, it's practically your culture as well. No wonder you're more than okay to let it intrude upon people unchecked or unchallenged.

 

[savagewind]

I don't get what the big deal is. A couple kids try to share something they believe in because, among other things, they think it's improved their life. What's so wrong about that? If you're not interested just say, "No thank you," and move along.

Move along? LOL. He is home.

 

[Grumpuss]

Oh, respectfully this time? That's a change.

It's all been respectful. Whether or not you are enraged and spittle is accumulating on your screen is immaterial.

Yeah, the first time. Second time around is irksome, and the third is downright harassment. Just as my rights include closing the door, they also include telling such annoyances off - and you've given no sound reason to do otherwise.

Of course, that's your right. But that's not what you've been railing against. Your complaint is that someone would dare to have the audacity to share such ideas in the first place.

No, actually, I won't. You're making false accusations and claims against me - hypocritically, I might add again - and I am going to speak out against them. You have no clue what we have or have not done, and you are absolutely in the wrong to treat our opinions and testimonies on the matter with such arrogance.

Chill out.

While no one is forcing me to convert (yet), they are still undeniably intruding on my home to spread their ideology. Which is the entire point, though you've tried hell-or-high-water to make it about something else.

Uh, no. Knocking on your door to attempt a sale, which is explicitly allowed, is not "intrusion".

And what's with the victim complex? "While no one is forcing me to convert (yet)" is about as tortured an analogy as you can get. There are other countries where rejecting the mainstream religion is grounds for execution. You're getting bent out of shape over some kindly kids (misguided or not) daring to wish you well and offer you a choice.

Has it interrupted my day? Yes, most certainly. Have they made attempts to tear down, challenge, or slight my way of life in my own home? Absolutely. Are they going somewhere where they and their ideas are not wanted? Most certainly. By every definition of the word, it is an intrusion. You, on the other hand, confuse intrusion with invasion. Here, let me define it for you:

in•trude v

1. to go or be somewhere where you are not wanted or are not supposed to be
I'm sorry to intrude, but I need to talk to someone.
Legislation to stop newspapers from intruding on people's private lives.
2. to disturb something or somebody or have an unpleasant effect upon them
The sound of the telephone intruded into his dreams

(source: the Oxford English Dictionary)

Respectfully, you are still using this incorrectly. In society, we share. We share the environment where there may be the free exchange of ideas.

Does your door come equipped with a peephole? Maybe next time someone unexpected is at your door, screen the salesmen.

Christians vs. Non-Christians. I know, you haven't been paying attention. But of course this doesn't bother you, it's practically your culture as well. No wonder you're more than okay to let it intrude upon people unchecked or unchallenged.

This is not a forum to create adversarial conflict. Not every non-Christian is going to agree with you (and they have not been). Not every Christian is going to assert these proselytizing tactics are a good idea (and they have not been).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What's your intent here? To bait and then report people again? No dice- get some other tactic, dude.

Which ones were those?

That I'm an atheist, that I lied about not seeing any advertisements at all, that I think I know more than everybody else, that I don't listen to other people, that I've been reporting people, that I'm using hyperbole, and that I'm trying to bait people.

Did you report it to the police? I'm sure they would dispatch an officer to your property to remove the piece of paper as "evidence" if your shrieks become labored or shrill enough.

I'm not that petty, and wouldn't waste their time or tax payer money over such a thing. But, yes, it is annoying that they would leave their nonsense on my car, something that I became responsible for properly disposing of - not that it was really a hassle, but leaving your crap on my car is not cool, even if it's something I would be interested in. If it's not a ticket from the cops, I expect people to leave their hands and other items off of my car. It's called basic/common decency and courtesy.

There's a disturbing trend of "you vs. them" going on, as if you feel such people are in an adversarial relationship with you.

They are the ones who create the "us vs them" by assuming the world is a "them," by thinking everyone needs to be an "us," and especially when you consider the ones who don't take "no" for an answer.

Have such people assaulted you previously?

Have I gave any indications they have? And what does that have to do with anything? You don't have to assault some one to be rude to them, inconsiderate to them, or violate a few different laws.

Again, this is just advertising. You continue to not buy the product, they continue to hope that you will reconsider.

There are laws where I can tell telemarketers to quit calling. I can legally keep door-to-door salespeople away.

You engage in hyperbole

I haven't been. Do you know what hyperbole means?

someone you appear to consider a mortal enemy

I don't consider them a mortal enemy, I've never talked of them in such terms, but yet--again--you assume this is how I see them.

for the deeply insulting crime of... ringing your doorbell.

And again, and again, and again. Or they don't ring the door bell and approach you on the streets, and then there is no door you can shut on them.

Okay, so call the cops the next time the Girl Scouts show up on your doorstep.

If you say no to the Girl Scouts, I've not known them to keep badgering, pestering, and becoming a nuisance about it.

 

[David1967]

And you'd be a terrible cop, then. A city staffs enough police officers that emergencies are responded to as well as civil disputes, public disturbances, suspicious activity of varying degrees, noise complaints, or even helping parents to discipline their children. If someone needs police assistance to get the point across to trespassers that they're not interested, it is the job of the police - as civil servants - to assist them.

Its not trespassing until you've asked them to leave and they ignore your request. Have you had an individual that has done so? If so then yes, by all means call an officer and have them trespassed. If they return after that they are subject to arrest. If they come to your door and you tell them to leave and they do, no crime has been committed. You may consider posting a sign at your gate along the lines of "No soliciting, religious or otherwise."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Its not trespassing until you've asked them to leave and they ignore your request.

Traditionally, and by common law and legal law in some place, it's trespassing if you don't have permission to be there.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I had a couple of Mormons knock on my door a few weeks ago, one from Norway and one from Finland, I have to admit I was surprised to be talking to young men in those bad (in the conventional meaning of "bad") black polyester suits from largely atheistic (and happy) parts of the world. Still, that is the power of religious indoctrination for you, it is a powerful drug. I particularly recall that one of them (obviously the chief salesman in the partnership) asking me if I considered myself to be a "person" early on in the conversation. Hilarious, not sure if he was trying to blow me away with his "deep" thoughts on solipsism/existence etc. or if that is part of the Mormon sales script these days. I'd be interested to hear from any Mormon (or ex-Mormon) reading this to bring me up to speed. Personally I've no problem with Mormons, after all they have a "second tier" heaven for atheists, they beat the A-holes who insist I'm going to spend an eternity in torment if I don't believe their religious message. Currently looking at booking a visit to London's West End to watch the "Book of Mormon".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Traditionally, and by common law and legal law in some place, it's trespassing if you don't have permission to be there.

Here (Ontario), pretty much any visitor has the right to enter your property to walk up to your front door to knock or ring the bell unless you've taken steps to make it known that this isn't wanted (e.g. "do not enter" signs, a "no solicitors" sign, a fence, telling the person not to enter, etc.).

 

[David1967]

Traditionally, and by common law and legal law in some place, it's trespassing if you don't have permission to be there.

Depends. As you say "some places" as in, I have some property in the country with "no trespassing" signs on the fence. To cross the fence is to trespass. But knocking on a residential door? No. If bothered a person should put up a no soliciting religious or otherwise sign as I suggested in a previous post. And for the record, I am neither a Mormon or a Jehovas witness. I can say that I have had conversations with both who have come into my house and business and have never experienced rude behavior from either. Even made some friends among them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Depends. As you say "some places" as in

Yes, and those are the key words. In America, generally if they aren't being negligent or have criminal intentions (or doing something illegal already), then it isn't trespassing. Legally, you just have to know the laws of your local municipality, city, county, and state.
And I do see a major difference between someone knocking on my door to ask to borrow a tire iron to change a flat tire, and someone knocking on my door because they want to sell me something. The one I don't mind and probably wouldn't mind helping. The others can bugger off.

 

[Watchmen]

That's what you see. I see kids who are pushed into an unpaid sales job for 2 years by family and social expectations.

And there's more to the ethics of proselytizing than just the motives of the proselytizer. The kids who show up at my door selling natural gas contracts are mostly motivated to pay for school, but they're still furthering a scam.


The worst I've ever said to an LDS missionary was "you shouldn't be doing this." That was for the two missionaries who were bothering people on a transit bus who worked their way down the bus, ignoring the refusals of the people on the bus who had no option to leave.

Just because someone has a low opinion of proselytizing doesn't mean they'll take their frustrations out on a Mormon missionary.

Some kids are pushed by social pressures, some excitedly look forward to the opportunity. Blanket characterizations are useless. The missionaries should not be proselytizing on buses. I'll give you that. But my point still stands. All one needs to do is is "no thanks," and move on.

 

[Watchmen]

Move along? LOL. He is home.

Move along by shutting the door. How hard is that? Maybe don't answer in the first place.

 

[Watchmen]

Traditionally, and by common law and legal law in some place, it's trespassing if you don't have permission to be there.

I doubt it.
Door-to-Door Solicitation

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Boo to you, Seven Headed Beast, hurrah for the Mormon second tier heaven for atheists! I have always thought an atheist heaven would be a much more exciting place to spend eternity than one spent with religious god botherers ! Just saying!

 

[David1967]

Yes, and those are the key words. In America, generally if they aren't being negligent or have criminal intentions (or doing something illegal already), then it isn't trespassing. Legally, you just have to know the laws of your local municipality, city, county, and state.
And I do see a major difference between someone knocking on my door to ask to borrow a tire iron to change a flat tire, and someone knocking on my door because they want to sell me something. The one I don't mind and probably wouldn't mind helping. The others can bugger off.

And that is true. We can tell anyone to leave our property.

 

[Seven headed beast]

And by the way, Frank, the Old Man has shown me that you are not a true "Heathen" in your practice of the ancient spirituality paradigm of Germanic or Teutonic polytheism.

For the record, you are listed and placed under the "Pagan" umbrella, so, dont be surprised when you get to the door of the lighted room, and your reservation is not listed under "Heathen".

"Heathen" is considered as closer to "Athiest", which has a better chance, statistically, of getting in the door of the lighted room than a mormon.

I have been asked to tell you that after the darkness that will be the "Battle of good and evil", and the impending collapse of the "church" under the weight of their own lies, there will be a return to those ancient dogmas as well as the god and goddess worship, and the "mystery religions"

And so, it is you that can have a good laugh at the comic book joke, and whose laugh was last in the whole big picture, should you desire to be amused by the misunderstanding of others.

 

[Seven headed beast]

Boo to you, Seven Headed Beast, hurrah for the Mormon second tier heaven for atheists! I have always thought an atheist heaven would be a much more exciting place to spend eternity than one spent with religious god botherers ! Just saying!

mister burp, youre in luck.

As a mormon, you wont have to bother your burping in any state of fretfulness about ascending and the problems it can cause people. you do not qualify.

Good luck and Via sin Dios,

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I doubt it.
Door-to-Door Solicitation

If you notice, I said things like "traditionally," and "in some places." And then after I further flesh out a more full and detailed response, you post that?