Symptoms vs Cause

[danieldemol]

The Word given by God is the Light

This i see as being one of the key barriers to unity.
We have different words allegedly given by God. So the Baha'i sees Baha'u'llah's words as the light, the Ahmadi sees Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's word as the light and so on and so forth. Instead of seeing human reason as the greatest light we have each assumes their own word is the light and are unable to reach a common light due to their rejection of reason as the primary guiding principle in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This i see as being one of the key barriers to unity.
We have different words allegedly given by God. So the Baha'i sees Baha'u'llah's words as the light, the Ahmadi sees Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's word as the light and so on and so forth. Instead of seeing human reason as the greatest light we have each assumes their own word is the light and are unable to reach a common light due to their rejection of reason as the primary guiding principle in my view.

The barriers would be of our own making, Abdu’l-Baha offered.

"... In short, it behooves us all to be lovers of truth. Let us seek her in every season and in every country, being careful never to attach ourselves to personalities. Let us see the light wherever it shines, and may we be enabled to recognize the light of truth no matter where it may arise. Let us inhale the perfume of the rose from the midst of thorns which surround it; let us drink the running water from every pure spring...."

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

Unity certainly has value if we care about fostering a sense of global cooperation and interdependence. If we're so antagonistic toward one another we can't even have a respectful dialogue about our views, we're sunk.

That said, too much unity can also hinder us. It can lead to groupthink and the stifling of minority rights and opinions.

You're right that there should be diverse opinions. They are inevitable anyway. No one should take away anyone's right to think for themselves.

 

[Truthseeker]

100% agree. One of the major problems I think, is that most people think it’s all up to politicians but it doesn’t work that way because they usually follow public opinion. So no strong objection to something will see a Luke-warm response from leaders. Problems won’t be addressed unless we unite and ask for them to be addressed. People in general are not trained in public discourse so very little action occurs but thanks to forums like this and the internet, people are able to develop a collective voice worldwide. But this process takes time so all we can do is try and stir the conscience of humanity in our collective communications.

I agree, but let's be realistic. Pubic opinion is very divided. I think part of the reason for that is that people don't don't think for themselves, and are led into conclusions fed to them from powerful voices. This forum itself is divided. Part of the reason is that they don't think for themselves, and yet there are some people here that I believe think for themselves, and are disposed to argue, and never admit they are wrong, because they have a big ego. Ego is the other problem besides being misled by powerful forces.

 

[danieldemol]

The barriers would be of our own making, Abdu’l-Baha offered.

"... In short, it behooves us all to be lovers of truth. Let us seek her in every season and in every country, being careful never to attach ourselves to personalities. Let us see the light wherever it shines, and may we be enabled to recognize the light of truth no matter where it may arise. Let us inhale the perfume of the rose from the midst of thorns which surround it; let us drink the running water from every pure spring...."

Regards Tony

Pure marketing words in my view. The most reliable access man has to truth is through reason and science in my opinion and to eschew these in favour of revelation leaves us at the mercy of the likes of such allegedly "pure springs" as Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Baha'u'llah and Huitzilopochtli among others in my view.

 

[CG Didymus]

This i see as being one of the key barriers to unity.
We have different words allegedly given by God. So the Baha'i sees Baha'u'llah's words as the light, the Ahmadi sees Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's word as the light and so on and so forth.

Yes, different "Words" of God and some people in some religions reject the "Words" of God from the others. Some find ways to reconcile and explain away the differences. Baha'is do both. They reject the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. But with a religion like Christianity, they explain away the differences.

And that's what I was wondering about the Baha'i Faith... Can it really get along with Fundy Christianity? Baha'is believe that they are wrong in their very literal interpretations of the Bible and the NT. And the Fundy Christians believe Baha'u'llah to be a false prophet.

The barriers would be of our own making, Abdu’l-Baha offered.

"... In short, it behooves us all to be lovers of truth.

Tony, it's good to hear from you. But of course, I disagree. Between Fundy Christians and the Baha'i Faith, what is the truth? Each believes it has the truth and the other one is wrong.

Pubic opinion is very divided. I think part of the reason for that is that people don't don't think for themselves, and are led into conclusions fed to them from powerful voices.

Everyone thinks for themselves to some degree. Some much more than others. When it comes to religious beliefs, once a person has committed themselves to a religion, they kind of stop thinking for themselves, meaning in ways that would go against the beliefs of their religion, and try to conform their thinking to what their religion teaches as true.

Fundy Christians have powerful, charismatic preachers, and so do Baha'is. Both have powerful stories about their founders. Both have arguments that support their beliefs and debunk the beliefs of the other. How do they get along? How do they put aside their religious differences and find common ground?

 

[Truthseeker]

Do you understand how disingenous it is to cite the Baha'i conceptions of a god as the solution for the whole freaking world, then when challenged on that notion to do a 180 degree flipand say that the Baha'i beliefs only apply to Baha'i? Y'all make these bold anougnement, but when given the most basic of scruitiny flip to, Who me? I didn't say any of the things I just said.

Also noted is that for an organization that is allegedly devoted to saving the world through your Greater Peace, that the as an organization Baha'i do remarkably little in the way of practical actions to improve some tiny piece of that world.

All you are doing to @loverofhumanity is tearing down what he is saying. On the other hand @loverofhumanity isn't doing that to you.

None of what you are doing leads to anything constructive. Is just leads to disharmony and dislike of you on my part, which I admit is a failing of mine, and of course others of your ilk liking what you are saying, leading to a divided forum. It is precisely this kind of thing that contributes to disunity in the world, which means problems of the world are impossible to solve.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Fundy Christians have powerful, charismatic preachers, and so do Baha'is. Both have powerful stories about their founders. Both have arguments that support their beliefs and debunk the beliefs of the other. How do they get along? How do they put aside their religious differences and find common ground?

We are happy to work together for the betterment of all humanity, allowing every person to make up their own minds about Faith.

A new day, a new chance.

All the best, regards Tony

 

[ppp]

All you are doing to @loverofhumanity is tearing down what he is saying. On the other hand @loverofhumanity isn't doing that to you.

If by "tear down" you mean that I am explaining why I think his claims are incorrect and harmful to humanity, then you are correct. If you mean something elase, you will have to explin your position. Also, @loverofhumanity is not being torn down. Only this very narrow subset of ideas. They are not the same thing. Please keep your response proportionate.

None of what you are doing leads to anything constructive.

That is my point to @loverofhumanity about the Divine Physician. That it is both proximately and ultimately bad for harmony.

Is just leads to disharmony and dislike of you on my part, which I admit is a failing of mine,

You are not my favorite person either. But that is okay. I don't have to like you. You don't have to like me. That is why we have ethics.

of course others of your ilk liking what you are saying, leading to a divided forum.

I realize that you think that is some sort of terrible thing. A divided forum. But even setting the fact that this is a debate forum to the side. Division is okay. It is how we manage division that matters

Trying to make everyone agree, or at least appear to agree, can only be done by the application of brute force to large population. Forever. The fact that you think otherwise is why we are at odds. I understand that harmony can only come from the acceptance of chaos and the building of a system that is flexible enough to please most people. You should read Out of Control by Kevin Kelly. It talks about managing chaotic systems. The tech is outdated, but the thinking is sound.

It is precisely this kind of thing that contributes to disunity in the world, which means problems of the world are impossible to solve.

No. It is the notion that unity means agreement that is the crack in your view. Control can only be achieved by surrender to the system. You must gain the wisdom to understand how to push here, and nudge there to reach your goals. Let loose your grip.

 

[Truthseeker]

I realize that you think that is some sort of terrible thing. A divided forum. But even setting the fact that this is a debate forum to the side. Division is okay. It is how we manage division that matters

Trying to make everyone agree, or at least appear to agree, can only be done by the application of brute force to large population. Forever. The fact that you think otherwise is why we are at odds. I understand that harmony can only come from the acceptance of chaos and the building of a system that is flexible enough to please most people. You should read Out of Control by Kevin Kelly. It talks about managing chaotic systems. The tech is outdated, but the thinking is sound.

More precisely, it is how manage diversity of opinion. Division is when people are at each others throats. Division is when no one can see that the other person has anything valuable to say, blinded by ego usually. That's something that I am working on for myself, I hope you are too.

 

[John53]

Dear friends,

Recently I began experiencing symptoms of muscular pain so I bought foot and shoulder massagers but the pain did not subside. Then the other day I suffered acute nausea for days but after consulting a Dr took electrolyte drinks and felt better. But then I noticed I struggled to walk and could hear thumping palpitations in my ears and called an ambulance. It turned out it wasn’t what we thought it was and I was on the verge of death with my haemoglobin count of 6 I did sign myself out but when they checked my blood count again they urgently called me for 3 blood transfusions. Initially it was 8.5.

Now unfortunately too, this seems to be the way of the world treating the symptoms such as printing more money, or buying more military hardware while humanity’s condition worsens due to incompetent physicians putting a bandage on the sickness. Our pride denies us to admit we’ve got it wrong and our condition I believe will worsen and force us to turn to the Divine Physician.

The Diagnosis

Its (humanity’s) sickness is approaching the stage of utter hopelessness, inasmuch as the true Physician is debarred from administering the remedy, whilst unskilled practitioners are regarded with favour, and are accorded full freedom to act.
Bahá’u’lláh

The Remedy

That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.
Bahá’u’lláh

This is not about conversion, changing religion or joining the Baha’i Faith but about ‘all men being as brothers’ If we all considered one another brothers and sisters how could we just stand by and watch the injustices in the world. When people wanted same sex marriage there was a great movement around the world to bring about change so people can bring about change if they really want to but it’s up to us not the politicians. Unless we care and unite together, injustices will continue.

Doctors are only human, they don't know everything and sometimes make mistakes. They also have to rely on their patients being honest and factual which often isn't the case. We are quick to blame them for missing something or being wrong and quickly forget the numerous times they help us.

 

[Truthseeker]

And that's what I was wondering about the Baha'i Faith... Can it really get along with Fundy Christianity? Baha'is believe that they are wrong in their very literal interpretations of the Bible and the NT. And the Fundy Christians believe Baha'u'llah to be a false prophet.

That in itself is not a problem. Fundamental Christians could get along with Baha'is to solve problems. We can put aside our differences in understandings. That's true of al religions, as a matter of fact. It is when we see each other as opponents or worse when we have problems.

Everyone thinks for themselves to some degree. Some much more than others. When it comes to religious beliefs, once a person has committed themselves to a religion, they kind of stop thinking for themselves, meaning in ways that would go against the beliefs of their religion, and try to conform their thinking to what their religion teaches as true.

Fundy Christians have powerful, charismatic preachers, and so do Baha'is. Both have powerful stories about their founders. Both have arguments that support their beliefs and debunk the beliefs of the other. How do they get along? How do they put aside their religious differences and find common ground?

it's true that people do some thinking for themselves, but for some it seems miniscule from my vantage point. For instance look at Republican voters in the country. No matter how bad what Trump is doing over the last 6 or 7 years, his popularity never wavers among Republicans in the polls. It is always about the same. I'm amazed at this.

Just speaking for myself, I still think for myself after being a Baha'i for over 52 years. As a matter of fact thinking for myself has led me into storms of doubt sometimes. I have tried to see a way to still believe, but that is because there is such overwhelming evidence in favor of the Baha'i Faith.

We can find common ground in things we can do together. It has to be a commitment to do this on both sides.

 

[ppp]

More precisely, it is how manage diversity of opinion. Division is when people are at each others throats. Division is when no one can see that the other person has anything valuable to say, blinded by ego usually. That's something that I am working on for myself, I hope you are too.

Did you agree with my reply? Are you still angry?

 

[Truthseeker]

Did you agree with my reply? Are you still angry?

I'm just trying to find points of agreement, which is something I like to do. I'm not angry now, no.

 

[Truthseeker]

That is a very corporate stock-footage post, rather than a specific response to either of the statements to which it is supposed to be a reply.

Looking at Audie's answer and your approval, I guess you need some proof of what he is saying?

 

[Truthseeker]

Cut n paste should give source

How much proof of what he was saying do you need?

 

[ppp]

Looking at Audie's answer and your approval, I guess you need some proof of what he is saying?

Evidence. But yes.

 

[Audie]

How much proof of what he was saying do you need?

Cut n paste w/o source amounts to taking credit

 

[Audie]

This i see as being one of the key barriers to unity.
We have different words allegedly given by God. So the Baha'i sees Baha'u'llah's words as the light, the Ahmadi sees Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's word as the light and so on and so forth. Instead of seeing human reason as the greatest light we have each assumes their own word is the light and are unable to reach a common light due to their rejection of reason as the primary guiding principle in my view.

Unity with that religion, never.

 

[CG Didymus]

it's true that people do some thinking for themselves, but for some it seems miniscule from my vantage point. For instance look at Republican voters in the country. No matter how bad what Trump is doing over the last 6 or 7 years, his popularity never wavers among Republicans in the polls. It is always about the same. I'm amazed at this.

That's a good example of people that have opposing views and believe the other side is more than wrong but evil and criminal in their actions.

Now put a committee together of Fundy Christians and Baha'is, would they be able to work together in spite of having very different religious beliefs? I just thought of a great problem for that committee to solve, now this would be in the U.S. It would be about gun control. Or how about climate change?

Unfortunately, Conservative Christians seem to side with the gun lobby and with the people that think that climate change is a hoax. How do you work with people that have beliefs that different than yours? It'd be like putting the progressive democrats in with the Maga republicans.