Symptoms vs Cause

[Truthseeker]

That's a good example of people that have opposing views and believe the other side is more than wrong but evil and criminal in their actions.

Now put a committee together of Fundy Christians and Baha'is, would they be able to work together in spite of having very different religious beliefs? I just thought of a great problem for that committee to solve, now this would be in the U.S. It would be about gun control. Or how about climate change?

Unfortunately, Conservative Christians seem to side with the gun lobby and with the people that think that climate change is a hoax. How do you work with people that have beliefs that different than yours? It'd be like putting the progressive democrats in with the Maga republicans.

It's true that there are different flavors of Christian in the U.S., some of which we could work with a lot, some very little.

 

[CG Didymus]

It's true that there are different flavors of Christian in the U.S., some of which we could work with a lot, some very little.

But for a peaceful and unified world, they need to be included. With each, Baha'is and Fundy Christians, believing the other is wrong, how will that happen? I think it will have to be the Baha'is to find a way, because I doubt it will be the Christians.

 

[Audie]

But for a peaceful and unified world, they need to be included. With each, Baha'is and Fundy Christians, believing the other is wrong, how will that happen? I think it will have to be the Baha'is to find a way, because I doubt it will be the Christians.

They will NEVER "find a way" with me.

Nor would any other, comparably insensible group.

 

[CG Didymus]

They will NEVER "find a way" with me.

Nor would any other, comparably insensible group.

And that's the problem with the Baha'i Faith. To unite the world, it needs people to believe in God and that God sent their prophet... And then to follow the Baha'i laws. They can't compromise those beliefs.

So, right now, the Baha'i Faith is being rejected for their belief in God. They get rejected because their prophet claims to be the return of Christ, of Buddha, of Krishna and everyone else promised in the other major religions. Then there is their laws. They get rejected for them too.

 

[ppp]

And that's the problem with the Baha'i Faith. To unite the world, it needs people to believe in God and that God sent their prophet... And then to follow the Baha'i laws. They can't compromise those beliefs.

So, right now, the Baha'i Faith is being rejected for their belief in God. They get rejected because their prophet claims to be the return of Christ, of Buddha, of Krishna and everyone else promised in the other major religions. Then there is their laws. They get rejected for them too.

It would help their cause if the Baha'i could demonstrate that the Baha'i Faith is, in some significant measure, a net good for the world.

 

[Audie]

And that's the problem with the Baha'i Faith. To unite the world, it needs people to believe in God and that God sent their prophet... And then to follow the Baha'i laws. They can't compromise those beliefs.

So, right now, the Baha'i Faith is being rejected for their belief in God. They get rejected because their prophet claims to be the return of Christ, of Buddha, of Krishna and everyone else promised in the other major religions. Then there is their laws. They get rejected for them too.

I don't reject them for belief in God per se.
I reject their faith for the same reason I do
all of the Abrahamic derived religions.

 

[Audie]

It would help their cause if the Baha'i could demonstrate that the Baha'i Faith is, in some significant measure, a net good for the world.

It would have helped a bit ifn their book wasn't such gibberish.

 

[Heyo]

Dear friends,

Recently I began experiencing symptoms of muscular pain so I bought foot and shoulder massagers but the pain did not subside. Then the other day I suffered acute nausea for days but after consulting a Dr took electrolyte drinks and felt better. But then I noticed I struggled to walk and could hear thumping palpitations in my ears and called an ambulance. It turned out it wasn’t what we thought it was and I was on the verge of death with my haemoglobin count of 6 I did sign myself out but when they checked my blood count again they urgently called me for 3 blood transfusions. Initially it was 8.5.

I'm glad you survived and hope you'll get better.

But don't think that the doctors found the cause. They found an other symptom. Did they also find why your haemoglobin count was that low? That would be the cause.

Now unfortunately too, this seems to be the way of the world treating the symptoms such as printing more money, or buying more military hardware while humanity’s condition worsens due to incompetent physicians putting a bandage on the sickness. Our pride denies us to admit we’ve got it wrong and our condition I believe will worsen and force us to turn to the Divine Physician.

The Diagnosis

Its (humanity’s) sickness is approaching the stage of utter hopelessness, inasmuch as the true Physician is debarred from administering the remedy, whilst unskilled practitioners are regarded with favour, and are accorded full freedom to act.
Bahá’u’lláh

The Remedy

That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.
Bahá’u’lláh

This is not about conversion, changing religion or joining the Baha’i Faith but about ‘all men being as brothers’ If we all considered one another brothers and sisters how could we just stand by and watch the injustices in the world. When people wanted same sex marriage there was a great movement around the world to bring about change so people can bring about change if they really want to but it’s up to us not the politicians. Unless we care and unite together, injustices will continue.

Like many others, I'm sympathetic to your wish for unity and suspicious of the source it is coming from. Religion has very rarely been a solution and most of the time part of the problem. Baha'i hasn't been the only one wanting to unity by creating a new religion under which all can unity. But the effect is always the same: one more religion to divide people, making the problem worse.

The solution has to be a secular one. One that doesn't mention religion at all. The cause, similar to your case, is not the lack of the right religion, the cause isn't even religion, like one could easily conclude, the cause is divisive thinking.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't reject them for belief in God per se.
I reject their faith for the same reason I do
all of the Abrahamic derived religions.

My main problem with the Baha'i Faith is their claim of progressive revelation... that their God sent different manifestations/messengers at different times and places but that their messages were essentially the same.

To me, it seems more likely that people in different places and times made up their own Gods and religions and a lot of those Gods and religions are believed to be nothing more than myth. But some of those ancient, mythical religions and their Gods are still believed by some to be real.

And the Baha'i Faith claims that they believe in those ancient religions. Except, when asked about the beliefs and practices of those religions, Baha'is reject them. As I've said before, they reject the multiple Gods and reincarnation of some Hindus. They claim that Buddha was sent by the Abrahamic God and that he taught about that God. They reject the belief of any Christian or Jew that takes the Creation story or the flood literally. And they reject that Jesus is part of a trinitarian Godhead and that he rose from the dead. So, in reality, what they believe about all these other religions is what they say is true about them.

Too convenient, too easy, but it works for them. And it works to essentially do away with the other religions while at the same time saying they were all true.

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'i hasn't been the only one wanting to unity by creating a new religion under which all can unity. But the effect is always the same: one more religion to divide people, making the problem worse.

We desire to work with other religions. In fact Baha'is are disproportionally involved in interfaith groups, given our small numbers. Certainly that's true in the Dayton, Ohio area.

 

[Truthseeker]

They claim that Buddha was sent by the Abrahamic God and that he taught about that God. They reject the belief of any Christian or Jew that takes the Creation story or the flood literally. And they reject that Jesus is part of a trinitarian Godhead and that he rose from the dead. So, in reality, what they believe about all these other religions is what they say is true about them.

The Buddhist religion is definitely not Abrahamic. It reflects the culture of that part of the world. As for the rest, I'd like to know what is wrong with us believing that certain Prophets came and we came to believe what they said. We are not insisting that everyone else believe what we believe. All are free to believe what they discover after investigation of reality.

 

[CG Didymus]

Like many others, I'm sympathetic to your wish for unity and suspicious of the source it is coming from. Religion has very rarely been a solution and most of the time part of the problem. Baha'i hasn't been the only one wanting to unity by creating a new religion under which all can unity. But the effect is always the same: one more religion to divide people, making the problem worse.

The solution has to be a secular one. One that doesn't mention religion at all. The cause, similar to your case, is not the lack of the right religion, the cause isn't even religion, like one could easily conclude, the cause is divisive thinking.

I do think that people in liberal forms of religion and religions that incorporate bits and pieces of all religions into their beliefs can be at peace and unity with each other. But they are putting aside the types of beliefs that had made a particular religion exclusive and the only one the is right. They take things like the Golden Rule and make that kind of thinking the most important. And also that Buddhist analogy about the blind men and the elephant. They look at a bigger picture and see the whole elephant, instead of seeing the little piece that of the elephant and thinking that's the whole thing.

But do Baha'is fit into that? They believe they do, but they are still a religion that thinks that their prophet is The Prophet. That their concept of God is The Truth. And that their laws are The Laws of God for this day and age. So, can they work together with those liberal and New Age believers, or will they be covertly thinking and trying to push them, or guide them towards Baha'i beliefs?

Since the Baha'is believe they have the truth for today, and that their prophet is the divine physician, I think, ultimately, Baha'is will push for their beliefs as being better and necessary to bring about a peaceful and unified world. And I saw that happen at an Ecumenical gathering at a Reformed Jewish Synagogue.

All the speakers from the other religions spoke about respect and acceptance of the other people in the other religions. But the Baha'i speaker read directly from the Baha'i Peace Statement. And since she was reading it, it came across like a lecture. It was long and tedious, and she finally looked up and said, "I could go on but..." She looked around and saw that the people had enough already.

I've seen it here on the forum also. The Baha'i don't seem to realize they are doing it, but to others, they are pushing their beliefs into the discussion. As if we are going to see something so profound and so obviously from God that we will all open our eyes and see the truth, their truth.

But we don't. Instead, some of us complain, ask questions, and at times, some of us get annoyed. And are we treated with love and respect by the Baha'is? Again, maybe they think they are treated everyone respectfully, but to some of us, they seem to be just like everybody else... they get annoyed, and at times, to us, lash out and act out of anger. Of course, they'll probably say they aren't. But the opportunity to find ways to bring people with opposing views is lost. And, I think, until Baha'is can learn to show love and respect for those of us that doubt them and question them, then they won't be able be bring about anything that resembles peace and unity. They'll just be making enemies and causing more division. And can they put the blame on us? Sure, but is that going to solve the problem?

 

[Audie]

My main problem with the Baha'i Faith is their claim of progressive revelation... that their God sent different manifestations/messengers at different times and places but that their messages were essentially the same.

To me, it seems more likely that people in different places and times made up their own Gods and religions and a lot of those Gods and religions are believed to be nothing more than myth. But some of those ancient, mythical religions and their Gods are still believed by some to be real.

And the Baha'i Faith claims that they believe in those ancient religions. Except, when asked about the beliefs and practices of those religions, Baha'is reject them. As I've said before, they reject the multiple Gods and reincarnation of some Hindus. They claim that Buddha was sent by the Abrahamic God and that he taught about that God. They reject the belief of any Christian or Jew that takes the Creation story or the flood literally. And they reject that Jesus is part of a trinitarian Godhead and that he rose from the dead. So, in reality, what they believe about all these other religions is what they say is true about them.

Too convenient, too easy, but it works for them. And it works to essentially do away with the other religions while at the same time saying they were all true.

I hardly see why person would need more than to
read a single paragraph of that turgid hyper redundant
obscurantist jumble of words to figure no "god" had
anything to do with it.

The book of mormon shines ( by adverse comprison,
mind you) after seeing that bahai stuff.

Even if both are less believable than the other.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Buddhist religion is definitely not Abrahamic. It reflects the culture of that part of the world. As for the rest, I'd like to know what is wrong with us believing that certain Prophets came and we came to believe what they said. We are not insisting that everyone else believe what we believe. All are free to believe what they discover after investigation of reality.

I don't see it. Going back to a Fundy Christian, what can a Baha'i say? Let them keep believing that Jesus if God and that he rose again? That Satan is real and is out to get them? That without Jesus all people, even people in the other religions, are going to be sent to hell?

If Baha'is have the truth, it is their duty to enlighten the people of the world of that truth. But, of course, lots of us, don't necessarily believe the Baha'i Faith is the truth. And some of us question what is believed to be true in any and all religions. And the beliefs of the different religions do contradict. Does the Baha'i explanation make sense? Yeah, I can see how the leaders and people in the ancient religions got things wrong and misinterpreted things and added in false beliefs. But then what is true about those older religions?

Because the Baha'i writings tell us, then that is the Baha'i Faith insisting that they are wrong. A Baha'i can tell a Buddhist how he loves Buddha and the things he taught. But then what happens when that Buddhists reads what Abdul Baha' said about Buddhism? Anyway, thanks for replying. I hope what I say doesn't annoy you too much. And that you find a way to use it to help you become a stronger and better Baha'i. But here's that quote from Abdul Baha'...

The real teaching of Buddha is the same as the teaching of Jesus Christ. The teachings of all the Prophets are the same in character. Now men have changed the teaching. If you look at the present practice of the Buddhist religion, you will see that there is little of the Reality left. Many worship idols although their teaching forbids it. … The teaching of Buddha was like a young and beautiful child, and now it has become as an old and decrepit man. Like the aged man it cannot see, it cannot hear, it cannot remember anything. Why go so far back? Consider the laws of the Old Testament: the Jews do not follow Moses as their example nor keep his commands. So it is with many other religions.” (Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 63)​

 

[CG Didymus]

I hardly see why person would need more than to
read a single paragraph of that turgid hyper redundant
obscurantist jumble of words to figure no "god" had
anything to do with it.

The book of mormon shines ( by adverse comprison,
mind you) after seeing that bahai stuff.

Even if both are less believable than the other.

And that's the thing. Baha'i writings, the Quran, the Bible, the New Testament... If people weren't told that these are supposedly the word of God would anyone care what they said? Maybe they would take a few "truths" and words of wisdom from them, but by claiming these things are from a God, then if forces those who what to believe to believe it all. And then not to ever doubt it or question it.

 

[Audie]

And that's the thing. Baha'i writings, the Quran, the Bible, the New Testament... If people weren't told that these are supposedly the word of God would anyone care what they said? Maybe they would take a few "truths" and words of wisdom from them, but by claiming these things are from a God, then if forces those who what to believe to believe it all. And then not to ever doubt it or question it.

I'd expect clear thinking and masterful prose from
Creator of the Universe.
Such utterly transparent fraud as is presented as
being god- breathed gives a person pause, wondering
what goes on in the mind of people eager to
be gulled by it

 

[F1fan]

Thanks very much.

That is so true. It’s people who need to act. And it’s people who are needed to create a better world. Where the ‘Divine Physician’ comes in is to create the impetus for major changes such as world peace, unity between races and religions and nations which humans so far have not been able to achieve or even gain much momentum in. We still have major racial problems, civil wars, problems between religions so what do you propose? Humans unitedly got same sex marriage but what about world peace, racial harmony and unity between nations? These issues are far more pressing and urgent.

The whole thing which is so important to me is not who gets credit or members or power but that we as humans look out for one another which we aren’t doing. It’s us humans who are causing each other angst so it’s us humans who need to fix our relationships with one another that of a more closely knit world. How we do that is controversial amongst ourselves but I think we can agree that us humans need to improve ourselves so we can live in peace and free from poverty and such.

As I have said before none of this happens naturally. To have wise and mature citizens who are educated enough to understand consequences there needs to be education. There also needs to be mental health services as well as broad medical care as a social responsibility. Wealth, greed, and excessive competition for resources will interfere with what you suggest. So stating the ideal is obvious. The solutions are what?

 

[F1fan]

The main purpose of the Baha’i Faith is to promote the consciousness of the oneness of humanity. The Baha’i Administration and its laws do not apply to non Baha’is. So if the world became as one country and lived as citizens of one world in peace with equal rights with a world administrative body of their own choice - then that is the hope of all Baha’is. We would be obedient to such a government. Our own religious laws would still apply to our own society but in no way over others who are not Baha’is. It is all voluntary. I want to be a Baha’i so I chose to follow and obey the laws but I can leave anytime I like.

Humanism is vastly better. Baha’i is too idealistic to be functional.

 

[F1fan]

The main purpose of the Baha’i Faith is to promote the consciousness of the oneness of humanity. The Baha’i Administration and its laws do not apply to non Baha’is. So if the world became as one country and lived as citizens of one world in peace with equal rights with a world administrative body of their own choice - then that is the hope of all Baha’is. We would be obedient to such a government. Our own religious laws would still apply to our own society but in no way over others who are not Baha’is. It is all voluntary. I want to be a Baha’i so I chose to follow and obey the laws but I can leave anytime I like.

Humanism is vastly better. Baha’i is too idealistic to be functional.

 

[F1fan]

The vast majority of Baha'i come from all walks of life, religious traditions and no faith. They have already brought down many barriers to become one people under One God. They have embraced change and are learning to work together by embracing all people of all Faiths in the same light.

There are many barriers and walls that need to fall for that to become a global realisation CG. People have their own choices when they are faced with a proposal of change.

It is good to ponder this passage. Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things"

The Word given by God is the Light, our neglect creates the darkness that surrounds humanity, the Word is Peace, our neglect of it is the evil we bring upon ourselves.

A Baha'i shares the Word of God given by Baha'u'llah, and as per Isaiah 45:7, that Word unfolds as light, or as darkness, correspondingly to our willingness to submit unto God.

God allows all our mistakes. Baha'u'llah advised the few people that intended to take the Shah's life for execution of the Bab, against doing such a crime, yet they did not choose that advice, Baha'u'llah did not change their choice and the result was horrendous suffering that still unfolds in Iran today.

We are responsible for our own choices, we have no control how another responds to the Challenges given by Baha'u'llah, but to learn wisdom ourselves.

Regards Tony

See, you can’t Write all this and expect unity because your religious dogma will offend non-believers and other believers alike. Plus the anti-gay attitudes which we have discussed. Humanism is non-dogmatic and open to all humans.