Amen to that !!! :shout
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The 1000 year reign of Christ
- Thread starter Strength & Honor
- Start date
Amen to that !!! :shout
When people read their own interpretation into scripture much of it becomes blurred.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
So, the United States "of" America isn't a place? As long as you are playing semantics did you notice that "Heaven" is a place and "God" isn't?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Way too funny.:ignore::cover:
james2ko
Well-Known Member
That's a good inquiry. For the answer, we have to look at how America got its name. America was named after Amerigo Vespucci, a 15th century Florentine merchant and explorer. America is a feminized Latin version of his first name! The "United States of America" can theoretically be named "Amerigo Vespucci's United States". Similarly, the Kingdom of God can also be named God's Kingdom.
A careful reading of my statement will disclose the fact I never disputed heaven being a place. I simply stated that Kingdom of Heaven is synonymous to the Kingdom of God in that God not only owns the kingdom, but He also owns Heaven.
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sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
So, in light of Luke 17:21 (KJV), "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you," is that place inside of the believer?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Upon casual reading of this verse, one can conclude that the kingdom of God is here with us now, either in the form of the Church or in the hearts of men. As sincere and as noble this belief may be, it does not come from the Bible. To correctly interpret this verse, we need to be reminded who Christ was addressing. The first part of verse 20 gives the answer: " And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said..." Christ was talking to the Pharisees--not to His disciples! The Pharisees asked Him, "When will your kingdom come?"
His answer: " The kingdom of god is within you". Could Christ have meant that his kingdom was within the Pharisees--men He called "hypocrites" and "blind guides", "who were full of extortion and excess," who were like "whitewashed tombs, which appeared beautiful outward, but...within [were] full of dead mens bones, and all uncleanness" (Matt 23:21, 23-27)?
A careful study will reveal the phrase within you is a mistranslation. The New King James margin says, in your midst. The New English Bible says, is among you. The Revised Standard Version says, in the midst of you. Christ was telling these carnal men that His kingdom was in their presence. Christ was referring to Himself. He represented Gods kingdomHis government. While Jesus was a flesh and blood man, He was also the Messiah, born to become a king. He never sinned or went against His Fathers will. He was the perfect representative of Gods government.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
What a bunch of ignorant fools mistranslating a simple thing like that. Who even let them near a Bible to begin with? Perhaps it just meant that the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom and the reference to "within you" is a generic term meaning man. Otherwise if the Kingdom of God was Christ, are you implying that the "place" where the Kingdom exists is Christ?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
The kingdom of God is Christ's kingdom. He was the sole representative when He uttered Luke 17:21 to the Pharisees. So in a sense, yes, the kingdom of God was in their midst. This is akin to an ambassador of country. To the host country, that ambassador not only represents that country but in essence "is" that country.
The Greek word used for "within" is entos (Stongs G1787). It is used twice in the NT. Here are the Strong's definitions:
within, inside
a) within you i.e.
b)in the midst of you (used in various translations)
c) within you i.e. your soul
The context in which the word is used will determine which definition will be utilized. In Luk 17:21, the context clearly indicates He was not telling the Pharisees, which He referred to as, "brood of vipers" and "evil and adulterous" that the kingdom of God was within them. So that eliminates a and c!
The other instance appears in Mat 23:26, "Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." The context here clearly does not allow for b but the "inside" definition would be appropriate.
A fundamental principle in biblical interpretation is to take everything literal until proven otherwise. There are a plethora of verses and parables, which I can present upon request, that picture a literal kingdom or government being set up by Christ and His Saints upon His return--right here on earth. Complete with laws, territories, and human subjects. May God speed that day!
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sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
I'm not disageeing with either point.
You seem to go to quite long lengths to argue for your point being the way you see it. The simple explanation is that the Kingom of God is a spiritual kingdom and the kingdom of Heaven is a physical one. Have you ever wondered why the use of "Kingdom of Heaven" is only found in Matthew?
Unless of course He wasn't speaking directly of them but generically of man.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
So what is causing you to spiritualize away the literal kingdom?
Not the way I see it. It's the way the bible interprets it. The bible interprets itself. Scriptual evidence of a literal kingdom is overwhelming, while proof of a spiritual kingdom is non-existent.
Some scholars believe Matthew used the Greek word for "heaven" instead of the Greek word for "God" because, it was the Jewish practice to avoid using God's name as an act of piety. Matthew was a Jew writing to other Jews. In Matthew, "heaven" stands for God. (McKenzie, John L. Dictionary of the Bible, Simon & Schuster, 1995, p 480;France, R.T. Tyndale New Testament Commentaries: Matthew," Inter-varsity Press 1985 reprinted in this format 2008 p.49)
What are you basing this on?? Please provide scriptural support.
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sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
You seem to have forgotten my premise that the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are two seperate things.
Or it could be that Matthew is a very Jewish book and Christ came offering the Jewish people an immediate kingdom if they would only accept Him as Messiah and King. The "Kingdom" He was offering them was the litteral physical Kingdom they were awaiting. After they rejected Him the 'Kingdom" He offered until the physical kingdom comes is the spiritual "Kingdom of Heaven."
What am I basing what on? You seem to believe I'm arguing something I'm not.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I understand , but you are not providing any scriptural support for your premise. I have presented the evidence from scripture and from credible scholarly sources that the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are synonymous. Yet you continue to insist they are different and offer no proof to validate your claim..Opinions are nice but scriptural evidence is much better.
Again, no scriptures. Just a private interpretation (2 Pet 1:20) that oozes uncertainty.
I said this:
The Greek word used for "within" is entos (Stongs G1787). It is used twice in the NT. Here are the Strong's definitions:
within, inside
a) within you i.e.
b)in the midst of you (used in various translations)
c) within you i.e. your soul
The context in which the word is used will determine which definition will be utilized. In Luk 17:21, the context clearly indicates He was not telling the Pharisees, which He referred to as, "brood of vipers" and "evil and adulterous" that the kingdom of God was within them. So that eliminates a and c!
You replied:
In post #51, you agreed with my statement that the bible interprets itself. So then what scriptural evidence can you present to validate the fact that Jesus wasn't speaking directly of the Pharisees but of man in general?
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Gonna be on earth -no doubt about it!
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
Mic 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
Mic 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
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sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Ok, let's back up to looking @ Luke 17:21. You stated that it was a mistranslation and offered another translation than my KJV. It is translated as "within you" by, the NKJV, NIV, ASV, YNG, WEB, and HNV. So, perhaps it is not clear that it is mistranslated. Can you definitively state why the translators in your version stated it the way they did. Also how's your Greek?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I thought we went over the Greek definition in post #50?
It's mistranslated based on the numerous supporting passages that mention a literal kingdom being established here on earth, not in men's hearts. This evidence would automatically disqualify "within you" and the alternate meaning "among you" or "in your midst" would be applicable (re-read post #50).
There is no scriptural evidence supporting the premise that Jesus was referring to mankind in general. He was, in essence, telling the Pharisees the king of the future kingdom was in their presence.
Here's irrefutable proof that the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are synonymous and not two separate kingdoms. Mat 4:17-19 and Mark 1:15-17 are parallel accounts. Yet in Matthew's account, he quotes Jesus saying, "the kingdom of Heaven"(vs17). But Mark quotes Jesus saying, "the kingdom of God" (vs 15)! Both authors are referring to the same exact incident! As scholars correctly indicate and I mentioned in an earlier post, the only difference is Mathew was writing to a touchy Jewish audience whom, at the time, was sensitive to the utterance of the word "God"!
There are just as many translations that have, "in your midst" or "among you" or "here with you" Like the NIV, ESV, CEV, RSV, NLT. We need to exercise great caution not to base doctrine "solely" on the number of translations a particular word appears.
I'm not sure if you realize it but you are hanging a foundational doctrine on one verse for which there are no supporting passages. With the word in question (within or Entos in the Greek) having four definitions and appearing only twice in the whole New Testament. If it's stretched any further, something is going to snap.
Let's recap what we've discussed so far: Based on supporting scriptures and scholarly sources, we've proven that the kingdom of Heaven and kingdom of God are synonymous. In earlier posts, we've proven "of" connotes ownership and not a place. So it's the kingdom of heaven or God not "in" heaven or "in" God.
We have also seen how the word within, which was only used twice in the NT, was inadvertently misapplied (perhaps due to the translator's bias) to blur the true meaning of Luk 17:21. We have scores of verses which speak of a coming kingdom here on earth sprinkled all throughout the scriptures. Piece it all together (Isa 28:10) and the doctrine is quite clear. One literal kingdom right here on planet earth. Anything else would not hold up to scriptural scrutiny.
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sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
I tried just looking up definition of words while translating Ovid in High School. It didn't work too well (according to my Latin teacher who gave me a C). This is why I asked how your Greek was. Do you have extensive experience translating Greek? Me re-reading post # 50 will not clarify this.
Did you offer any direct Scriptural supporting evidence that Jesus was speaking as an ambassador?
I'll address this later. One point at a time in rebuttal.
Which is why I asked you if you had any supporting evidence, from the translators, as to why they chose a particular rendering.
You're semantic diatribe proved nothing. Remember, Bill Clinton tried this approach as well.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry to say but your rebuttal was full of a whole lot of nothing.
You have yet to produce additional scriptural proof to support your belief or refute mine. And based on your defensive responses, I kind of get the feeling you are not. It's quite sad to see someone or some entity embrace one verse; manufacture a doctrine from it; and choose to casually disregard the plain teaching of the rest of the Word of God. This is precisely why mainstream Christianity is in such a confused state.
I guess Christ will have to settle this one when He returns. I promise not to gloat when He does
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sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
I'll have to assume not since you did not answer.
I'll assume not since you didn't answer.
I'll assume not since you didn't answer.
If you have no answer to these questions then I'll have to assume that your point concerning the Kingdom of God being "within you" as a mistranslation has no merit and I'll accept it as it is in the KJV.
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