The 1000 year reign of Christ

[Etritonakin]

People have become conditioned to bad news and false prophecies have lulled them into unbelief so I fear that many shall not fare well in what is coming. When spiritually asleep one can not hear - it has to do with a wrong attitude toward God. Mainly that is only corrected through great tribulation and hardship. Happen some will repent sooner.:thud:

Some have turned. Some will escape it, and some will be saved out of it -repenting during that time -in fact, a "great multitude". Some others are actually called to go into it for the sake of others.
Many have thought that the 144,000 are those who will escape the tribulation -but they are actually those who will go into the tribulation -not because they "deserve it", but because God will use them there for the sake of many.

Notice that the woman -the church which actually does the daily and preaches the gospel of the kingdom (not all who believe they do God's work actually do so) -will be led by God into the wilderness -and also mentioned is the "remnant of her seed"...

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourishedfor a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ..............

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We all have repenting to do, all of our days here!

 

[Beta]

We all have repenting to do, all of our days here!

Not perfect as long as we are in the flesh ! :no:

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'll take that as a no. Good night Sandy...

Good day James.

I'll take that a a no also. So now, when we look realistically at the verse in question, there is some doubt, among the experts, about whether the Kingdom of God is "within you" or "in your midst." If it is within you then it is not a physical kingdom.

If, as you say, that the "correct" translation is "in your midst" then where is the physical kingdom at the time Jesus spoke of it? It has not come yet so it wasn't there and therefore is makes no sense in that translation. You surmise that it means that Jesus is the ambassodor for the Kingdom and therefore it is Jesus that is the Kindom as it's representative. Yet you offer absolutely no Biblical proof for this stance. You, instead, work backward from your conclusion and offer a supposed solution. You're argument is a wash.

Now, before I move on to the next Scripture let me see if you will answer this question, "Do you believe in eternal security, as in, once saved, always saved?"

 

[james2ko]

Good day James.

I'll take that a a no also. So now, when we look realistically at the verse in question, there is some doubt, among the experts, about whether the Kingdom of God is "within you" or "in your midst." If it is within you then it is not a physical kingdom.

So would it be wise to make it the sole basis of a doctrine?

Let's go over Luke 17:21 again. This time with a little more zeal

"Within" is translated from entos, used only twice in the New Testament. Its primary meaning is "inside," as it is rendered in Mat 23:26. However, when used in conjunction with a plural noun, entos means "among" or "in the midst of." In Luke 17:21, entos is used with "you," and from the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, who had come to question Him about the Kingdom of God (verse 20). "You," then, is plural. "The kingdom of God is among you" or in your midst is best.

Most modern translations have recognized this grammatical error and translate entos as "among" or "in the midst of." Some texts, like the New King James and the New International versions, persist in using "within," though they note in the margin that "among" is an alternative.

Even without this technical knowledge of Greek, we could have easily understood that "within" is a poor and misleading translation. Christ was answering a question posed by the Pharisees, and He replied directly to them: "He answered them and said, . . . 'For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.'" But how could the Kingdom of God be within His most bitter enemies? How many times did He reveal them to be hypocritical and misleading the people? Theologically, it is quite impossible to think that His Kingdom would be in the Pharisees.

You claim He could have been referring to mankind in general and not speaking of the Pharisees. If that was the case, Jesus would have used the Greek word for "man" [anthropon], which He used back in Mark 2:27, instead of "within you"[entos].

It is only after He had made this remark that He turned to His disciples (verse 22) and explained what He meant. The subject of the entire section (verses 20-37) is stated most explicitly in verse 30: "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed." All along, He had been explaining His second coming! When He returns, He will set up His Kingdom on earth! (Zec 14:9).

If, as you say, that the "correct" translation is "in your midst" then where is the physical kingdom at the time Jesus spoke of it? It has not come yet so it wasn't there and therefore is makes no sense in that translation.

For the answer, we must return to the four common traits of a kingdom: a king, who rules by law over a number of subjects who live within a certain territory. The primary trait is that a kingdom must be ruled by a king; otherwise, the country has some other form of government. A king of any nation is the chief representative of that nation. And the King of the Kingdom of God is none other than the living Jesus Christ! see post #37 here for related scriptures.

Pilate specifically asked Jesus, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world that I should bear witness to the truth." (John 18:37). So as the King of God's Kingdom, He could truly tell the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was among them.

Now, before I move on to the next Scripture let me see if you will answer this question, "Do you believe in eternal security, as in, once saved, always saved?"

I'll be more than happy to answer your question, after you explain this:

In post #26 you claimed kingdom of heaven and Kingdom of God are two separate kingdoms:

"Christ was offering both. If the Jews would have accepted Him as Messiah He would have set up his physical kingdom. He was also offering the spiritual Kingdom of God through belief in Him."

I replied in post #57:

"Here's irrefutable proof that the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are synonymous and not two separate kingdoms. Mat 4:17-19 and Mark 1:15-17 are parallel accounts. Yet in Matthew's account, he quotes Jesus saying, "the kingdom of Heaven"(vs17). But Mark quotes Jesus stating, "the kingdom of God" (vs 15)! Both authors are referring to the same exact incident!

Mat 4:17-19 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." 18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 Then He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."

Mar 1:15-17 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." 16 And as He walked by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 Then Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."​

As scholars correctly indicate and I mentioned in an earlier post, the only difference was Mathew wrote to a touchy Jewish audience whom, at the time, was sensitive to the utterance of the word "God"!

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So would it be wise to make it the sole basis of a doctrine?

Let's go over Luke 17:21 again. This time with a little more zeal

"Within" is translated from entos, used only twice in the New Testament. Its primary meaning is "inside," as it is rendered in Mat 23:26. However, when used in conjunction with a plural noun, entos means "among" or "in the midst of." In Luke 17:21, entos is used with "you," and from the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, who had come to question Him about the Kingdom of God (verse 20). "You," then, is plural. "The kingdom of God is among you" or in your midst is best.

Most modern translations have recognized this grammatical error and translate entos as "among" or "in the midst of." Some texts, like the New King James and the New International versions, persist in using "within," though they note in the margin that "among" is an alternative.

Even without this technical knowledge of Greek, we could have easily understood that "within" is a poor and misleading translation. Christ was answering a question posed by the Pharisees, and He replied directly to them: "He answered them and said, . . . 'For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.'" But how could the Kingdom of God be within His most bitter enemies? How many times did He reveal them to be hypocritical and misleading the people? Theologically, it is quite impossible to think that His Kingdom would be in the Pharisees.

You claim He could have been referring to mankind in general and not speaking of the Pharisees. If that was the case, Jesus would have used the Greek word for "man" [anthropon], which He used back in Mark 2:27, instead of "within you"[entos].

It is only after He had made this remark that He turned to His disciples (verse 22) and explained what He meant. The subject of the entire section (verses 20-37) is stated most explicitly in verse 30: "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed." All along, He had been explaining His second coming! When He returns, He will set up His Kingdom on earth! (Zec 14:9).



For the answer, we must return to the four common traits of a kingdom: a king, who rules by law over a number of subjects who live within a certain territory. The primary trait is that a kingdom must be ruled by a king; otherwise, the country has some other form of government. A king of any nation is the chief representative of that nation. And the King of the Kingdom of God is none other than the living Jesus Christ! see post #37 here for related scriptures.

Pilate specifically asked Jesus, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world that I should bear witness to the truth." (John 18:37). So as the King of God's Kingdom, He could truly tell the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was among them.



I'll be more than happy to answer your question, after you explain this:

In post #26 you claimed kingdom of heaven and Kingdom of God are two separate kingdoms:



I replied in post #57:

"Here's irrefutable proof that the kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are synonymous and not two separate kingdoms. Mat 4:17-19 and Mark 1:15-17 are parallel accounts. Yet in Matthew's account, he quotes Jesus saying, "the kingdom of Heaven"(vs17). But Mark quotes Jesus stating, "the kingdom of God" (vs 15)! Both authors are referring to the same exact incident!

Mat 4:17-19 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." 18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 Then He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."

Mar 1:15-17 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." 16 And as He walked by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 Then Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."
​

As scholars correctly indicate and I mentioned in an earlier post, the only difference was Mathew wrote to a touchy Jewish audience whom, at the time, was sensitive to the utterance of the word "God"!

All that is nice. Thank you for calling and sharing. Since you will not answer whether or not you are proficient in Greek, or fail to offer a source that is for this information, I'll continue to disregard it. You may repeat it ad nauseum with the same result.

I see you have failed once again to answer a simple question but, I'll try again, "Do you believe in eternal security as in once saved always saved?"

 

[james2ko]

All that is nice. Thank you for calling and sharing. Since you will not answer whether or not you are proficient in Greek, or fail to offer a source that is for this information, I'll continue to disregard it. You may repeat it ad nauseum with the same result.

I see you have failed once again to answer a simple question but, I'll try again, "Do you believe in eternal security as in once saved always saved?"

I have nothing to prove. I have presented my case based on solid biblical and scholarly evidence. The burden of proof is on you! Which I believe you have none. This is why, over the last few days, you have resorted to derailing the conversation, dismissing my opinion as false, ridiculing and marginalising my points so you can look like the one that is correct and all while not presenting any new evidence. if you're not an attorney, then you've missed your calling!

Why do you continue to dodge the question about Mat 4:17-19 and Mark 1:15-17 I asked you about last week and once again yesterday? I'm not attempting to duck yours about eternal security. As I stated previously, I will be more than happy to answer it , after we settle the kingdom of god/heaven discussion. Are you going to comment on the verses in Matthew and Mark or continue your verbal ploys and diversion tactics?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I have nothing to prove. I have presented my case based on solid biblical and scholarly evidence.

Could you cite the authors of your scholarly evidence please? I'm am not looking for the dictionary you use but the qulified people who were the scholars. I also asked for the Biblical evidence for Christ being the Kingdom and you have not offered that. All the other your other falderal I have dismissed with unchallenged reason. You may even SHOUT it at me but it doesn't change the unqualified position you offered it from.

Why do you continue to dodge the question about Mat 4:17-19 and Mark 1:15-17 I asked you about last week and once again yesterday? I'm not attempting to duck yours about eternal security. As I stated previously, I will be more than happy to answer it , after we settle the kingdom of god/heaven discussion. Are you going to comment on the verses in Matthew and Mark or continue your verbal ploys and diversion tactics?

The eternal security question applies to my next Scriptural offering which leads to answering your question. Now, for the third time, "Do you believe in eternal security?"

 

[james2ko]

Could you cite the authors of your scholarly evidence please? I'm am not looking for the dictionary you use but the qulified people who were the scholars. I also asked for the Biblical evidence for Christ being the Kingdom and you have not offered that. All the other your other falderal I have dismissed with unchallenged reason. You may even SHOUT it at me but it doesn't change the unqualified position you offered it from.

The eternal security question applies to my next Scriptural offering which leads to answering your question. Now, for the third time, "Do you believe in eternal security?"

Quite frankly, your verbal olympics are beginning to bore me. I have presented the plain evidence of the bible, as you say, "Ad Naseum." It's so plain, there is really no need for scholarly interpretation-- it's just a bonus. Besides, no matter how much I present to you, It won't be enough. Because your mind is closed to the truth. Not to worry. It will be opened one day. I'm done. The truth has been witnessed to you.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Quite frankly, your verbal olympics are beginning to bore me. I have presented the plain evidence of the bible, as you say, "Ad Naseum." It's so plain, there is really no need for scholarly interpretation-- it's just a bonus.

And I poked holes in your evidence that you haven't reconciled. Obviously the truth scares you more than you think it scares me.

Besides, no matter how much I present to you, It won't be enough. Because your mind is closed to the truth. Not to worry. It will be opened one day. I'm done. The truth has been witnessed to you.

Did you learn to debate from a kindergardner? Once again you failed to answer a simple question. If you believe in eternal security and that the two kingdoms are synonymous then I can very simply put a wrinkle in your belief system.

 

[james2ko]

And I poked holes in your evidence that you haven't reconciled. Obviously the truth scares you more than you think it scares me.
Did you learn to debate from a kindergardner? Once again you failed to answer a simple question. If you believe in eternal security and that the two kingdoms are synonymous then I can very simply put a wrinkle in your belief system.

Of course you can...

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Of course you can...

But, of course you are genetically incapable of answering a simple question.

 

[james2ko]

But, of course you are genetically incapable of answering a simple question.

I'll get back to you after I scold my kindergarten teacher for not teaching me how to correctly debate.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'll get back to you after I scold my kindergarten teacher for not teaching me how to correctly debate.

Try reiterating the same failed point over and over again with her.

 

[james2ko]

Try reiterating the same failed point over and over again with her.

! will... But she's probably going to ask me who said these things about her. And I'll have to tell her the truth about you. And it won't be pretty...

 

[sandy whitelinger]

! will... But she's probably going to ask me who said these things about her. And I'll have to tell her the truth about you. And it won't be pretty...

That's debatable. :blowkiss:

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Ok, just for fun; Those who believe in eternal security and that the kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are the same, reconcile these verses for me:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into thekingdom of God." John 3:5

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 8:11-12 KJV

 

[gnostic]

I am in agreement with Sandy in the argument between Sandy Whitelinger and james2ko, and dodging to answer the question is one thing, but it is completely without merits if claiming having solid "scholarly" evidence.

I have nothing to prove. I have presented my case based on solid biblical and scholarly evidence. The burden of proof is on you! Which I believe you have none.

So far, I failed to see you provide authority to what you claim as evidence. If you have scholarly evidences, then you should be able to provide the names of scholars. Shifting the burden of proof to Sandy is clearly evasive tactic. Either you can provide evidence from scholar, or you don't. If you don't, then you really shouldn't make such claim.

 

[james2ko]

I am in agreement with Sandy in the argument between Sandy Whitelinger and james2ko, and dodging to answer the question is one thing, but it is completely without merits if claiming having solid "scholarly" evidence.

So far, I failed to see you provide authority to what you claim as evidence. If you have scholarly evidences, then you should be able to provide the names of scholars. Shifting the burden of proof to Sandy is clearly evasive tactic. Either you can provide evidence from scholar, or you don't. If you don't, then you really shouldn't make such claim.

At what point did you start reading the thread?

 

[Ben Masada]

Are there any Christians here on the forums who believe Christ will physically reign a literal 1000 years on earth before it is destroyed? Can anyone here tell me where this idea comes from? Please provide scripture if applicable.

Jesus has been dead for about 2000 years and, the only Scripture applied here is found in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love and their hatred, and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that's done under the sun."
Ben

 

[Beta]

Jesus has been dead for about 2000 years and, the only Scripture applied here is found in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love and their hatred, and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that's done under the sun."
Ben

And you have not applied scripture which was written well after Eccl.9 :
1Cor.15v4 : And that he (Jesus) was buried and that he rose again the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.
Or how about
Rom.1v4 : And declared to be the Son of God with Power according to the Spirit of Holiness BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD .