The fear of Atheism

[GadFly]

I think fear of Atheism (usually manifested by Christians) is based on the belief that Christianity will lose its dominant position in this society. Many Christians are not content being allowed to practice their own religion, they want to force it on others. Their ability to do so will diminish with the rise of Atheism. The fear is also based on the largely unwarranted assumption that Atheists want to prohibit Christians from practicing their religion. While it is true that Atheists don't want to be subjected to Christianity, I believe most don't really care if it's practiced in private. Sadly, this is not good enough for many Christians. Lastly, I think many Christians fear Atheism because of insecurity about the validity of their own belief system.

Sounds to me like you are confused by that argument we listened to about belief systems of atheist. It was amusing to witnessing atheist arguing with each other, both disbelieving each other because neither had premises for what they believed to be true.
Many Christians are not content being allowed to practice their own religion, they want to force it on others. Their ability to do so will diminish with the rise of Atheism.

That is the same thing Christians said in China. Look how free they are there to spread their gospel. The atheist surely showed those Christians that they had nothing to fear. Atheism found a frame to house their none belief over in China. Communism sure has flourished with the use of atheism, right?

 

[GadFly]

Socialism in moderation is a very good thing. Nevertheless, it shouldn't be equated with atheism.

Tell that to the people in China.

 

[Father Heathen]

To see atheist standing on the streets handing our pamphlets on atheistic doctrine, go to China, enjoy their rich culture of freedom and liberty. You will not be bothered there with Christians telling you about God. Atheism rules there.

To see theists standing on the streets handing out pamphlets on theistic doctrine, go to Iran, enjoy their rich culture of freedom and liberty. You will not be bothered there with atheist telling you about the nonexistence of god. Theism rules there.

Two can play your cheap, dishonest game troll boy.

 

[Father Heathen]

Tell that to the people in China.

He said socialism in moderation, which would obviously not apply to China. Not all forms of socialism are authoritarian. Likewise not all capitalistic societies are democratic. Some European socialist countries actually have more freedom than we do.

 

[s2a]

Hiya Gadfly,

Welcome back!

First, I will note your lack of considered response/reply of pointed inquiry for your evaluation, here.
I would not (yet) presume any calculating evasion on your part...only diversion of your time and attentions...so far.

You responded to MONSTER:

Well, thank you for your invitation to have fun in the Christian's world of fear. Of course the Christian's reeal position is that fear has been cast out the world. As usual, here once again, the atheist states the Christian's view for the Christians. It's not the Christian's view but atheist that want the Christians to believe fear is their view.

It is? I was of the position that IGNORANCE was the favored position, not fear.

This thread is posted from an atheist's point of view of contempt for Christians' reasons for believing in God, proven by your own words, which are nothing but lies and threats.

Oh my.

Wrong, your premise is wrong just like all premises of atheist are wrong but atheist ignore their premises are wrong because,if they admit the existence of eternal rules of reasoning exist, they fear and know they must admit their is a God.

Right.

I lay awake at night, in constant fear of my irrational doubts/denials of your god's claimed existence. I also fear retribution from trolls, goblins, and the Easter Bunny. Their prospective "realities" haunt my dreams.

Ahhhhh!

Christians know that atheist make up their premises for reasoning as needed. Christians know atheist fear being exposed that their reasoning is marked with error, which is the Christian's definition of sin.

And the definition of "sin" is...what; and found...where?

The atheist so desperately tries to convince the Christian that his beliefs come from the Bible, pastors, churches, hearts and Holy Creeds as you have said here.

Maybe such "desperation" would be lessened if Christians weren't so insistent upon selling the "TRUTH" of the Bible.

Christians do place great value in all these but our evidence for believing in God comes from right reasoning of which the Absolute one is the Premise of our thanking.

Jabberwocky. Circular reasoning. Self-validation.

Atheist fear this distinction between atheistic thinking and Christian thinking more than hell itself, which may be the reason you go to such lengths to convince theist that we believe what pastors, holy books, creeds, churches,

Crap.

Muslim temples, and synagogues have drilled into our heads. Believers believe in God because God has placed into our minds self evident proof and unalienable evidence of the Holy Spirit Himself.

Really? Then how is it that 2/3 of the entire human species do not find your "truth" to be "self-evident"? Is it REALLY "SELF EVIDENT"?
Is it all just a matter of illogical self-denial on the part of FOUR BILLION souls? Really?

Although you make light of the the Holy Spirit, he proves to you the existence of God, which you out of fear hope is not true.

Again...major crapola shoveled from the evangelistic faithful.

Take notice! You do not intimidate and create fear in the hearts of believers with wild speculations that God does not exist.

Sure we do. ;-)

But when various atheist witness that they do have a glimpse of God, when they acknowledge that the rules and laws of reasoning or logic were just here, always present, a type of omniscience of God, it is a time fear grips hearts that God might be true. Why do you fight the concept of God so vociferously? Because you know your time is short and your atheistic reasoning will ultimately fail, you fear.

If I could have one flighty wish fulfilled, it would be that divine "revelation" might include some/any better understanding amongst the most ardently pious adherents that "belief" is a matter of accepting faith...with neither attached burdens of evidence or proof as requisite validation of said faith.

Rationalization is not the equivalent of reason, any more that personal insistence (of any claim) constitutes burdened evidence.

So, what happens if something does not confirm your faith, but is, rather, opposing it?

Indeed. What then?

Paraphrasing from the Bible, let me answer with the disdain with which you ask this question. "Resist the atheist and he will flee from you" (Bible, James 4:7).

Interesting that you would characterize ("paraphrase") Scripture in such a manner, since the passage reads:
"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you". (NIV)
"Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (NASB)
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (KJV)
"..be subject, then, to God; stand up against the devil, and he will flee from you." (YLT)
"So let God control you. Fight the devil and he will run away from you." (WENT)

1) The cited passage speaks of submission, and subservience to God.

2) The "Devil" is an "atheist"? Really? Is that even..."logical", Scripturally speaking?

If any "disdain" is registered in your behalf, it is upon your rapt ignorance or manipulation of Scripture to suit your own "reasoned" (or "enlightened") spiritual perspective...

Never mind the trailing aspects of such a quotation on your part...

Whom, in probable fact, was the authoring "James" of the passage you cite? Was he apostle to Jesus, or His brother? Let us not blithely ignore John 7:2-5.

The believer does not fear reality as you ignorantly imply.

Indeed...why fear a reality that includes a deity that promises a posh and eternal "crib" to anyone that believes and worships His invisible existence? I mean, what "reasonable person" would reject such a deal?

It is the atheist that fears reality. Your panic that the errors in your reasoning might be revealed is evidenced in your ignoring the evidence of God.

Sure, atheists are concerned with "reality". One of those "realities" includes the very real conclusion that ANY/EVERY "GOD" remains conspicuously absent whenever the greatest need or umanistic horror is manifested within our own present existence.

Just as there's Islamiphobia, Atheophobia is centered around the idea that faith is everything, and without faith, you have nothing.

Bunk.

Religious "faith" IS "something"...but so too are astrology, and mythology, and superstition. Believing "something" to be "TRUE"...doesn't ever make that belief TRUE by default, or by insistence alone.

Yes, our faith is everything to us and without faith there is nothing.

Or, there is atheism. ;-)

Your ignorance of Christian faith urges you to make statements of nonsense to threaten us and create fear in our ranks.

Crap. Your ignorance of atheism does you even less personal credit...

Believers are quite capable amongst themselves in manifesting fears, ignorance, intolerance, and....idiocy.

But to a Christian faith is substance and evidence of God.

Um...we know.

No Christian worships God out of fear and ignorance as you propose. (Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.) You did not know that was part of our faith?

Optimism is not a foundation of critical thinking. It may provide a derivative "hope" gleaned from such review, but "faith" projects the ideal that wishful thinking (prayer, devotion, worship) will invite God's favor and beneficent countenances as reward for those adherent's piety and doleful acquiesce of abiding supernaturalistic subjugation.

But we know the roar of the beast is part of your faith that there is no God; and, we do not fear your roar, as we know the atheist will surely attack our faith with their perverted reasoning and disjointed logic.

Heh. I do so love playing the role of "pervert".

I know you guys hate it when your thinking process is challenged and it is referred to as Hegelian logic but the vast majority of atheist around the world proudly live their lives by this reasoning.

Interesting claim...absent any substantive support, I'll note.

Atheist in this forum have not acknowledged its existence and use. Why not?

Perhaps atheists in this forum are not bound by one singular philosophical perspective?

After all, you use it in your arguments in this thread. You fear and know well that the complete civilized world has rejected the logic of the atheist.

I fear the rejection of reason...not atheism.

You fear that a discussion of your logical process of thesis, antithesis and synthesis will be uncloaked and you will have to agree with the rest of Western Civilization that you have turned logic upside down and stood it on its head. No wonder atheist fear God and his followers.

Nice try.

You may now close ranks and continue your attack on believers.

I take little issue with believers themselves...I only question the claims of whatever they proclaim as "TRUTH".

 

[GadFly]

I don't require "proof" to believe in god. The problem isn't that there's no proof of god, the problem is that there's no evidence at all, and god, at least god as revealed in the Abrahamic religions, doesn't even seem plausible.

There is evidence that God does exist. The evidence is as clear as the evidence used to prove science exist but those who will believe in science will not believe in God based on the same evidence.

 

[GadFly]

Maybe, but I've never encountered one. People who produce "evidence" for god are usually remarkably dull. Their evidence is usually either irrelevant (The Universe exists!), or completely subjective (I can feel god in my heart; I know it's god; I just know it), or absurd (The Bible [or the Qur'an] is too wonderful to have been produced by mere humans. Look, the Virgin Mary appeared on the side of that building. Listen to this: a lion saying "Allah"!).

There are, to be sure, brilliant people who believe in God, but I haven't heard them claim they have any real evidence.

What qualities would the evidence for the existence of God have?

 

[Draka]

There is evidence that God does exist. The evidence is as clear as the evidence used to prove science exist but those who will believe in science will not believe in God based on the same evidence.

There is no "evidence" of god that is in any way equivolent to the evidences found in science. To experience deity is a personal thing and cannot be proven absolutely to anyone else other than the person having the experience. Some people may have like experiences and therefore find commonality in their beliefs...and hence, belief structures. But "evidence" is not a word that can be used for deity in any scientific or publically published arena.

 

[heavyarms553]

As a point of fact, scientific evidence is commonly disregarded unless it can be replicated reliably under identical circumstances. As far as I know, there have been no incidences where a miracle occurs and it can be repeated on demand.

 

[GadFly]

If the Bible didn't say that God will send believers to heaven, Christians would reject the same quality of evidence they accept now. Why is that? Since they trust the Bible now, they ought to trust it even if the eventual outcome did not promise to reward them with a comfortable eternal life. Christians are not nearly as interested in what the evidence IS as they are interested in what the evidence PROMISES. That is because of their emotional perceived self interest. Christians will only accept an outcome that is favorable to them. The same is true regarding many non-Christian theists.

Monster, have you ever been a Christian? Most Christians would not agree with your premises. Christians are interested in what the evidence is. If the premises of your statements were true, we would have difficulty in proving our sincerity in Christ. But the premises are false as you present these. Christians should not be asked to defend their faith based on your premises, but on their own premises.

 

[s2a]

There is evidence that God does exist. The evidence is as clear as the evidence used to prove science exist but those who will believe in science will not believe in God based on the same evidence.

Crap.

I don't "believe in" science.

"Science" is a methodology; an "orthodoxy" of rules, parameters, objectivity, and falsifiability.

"Science" serves to reliably test hypotheses; not to validate individualistic beliefs, suspicions, claims, or hopeful wishes.

"Science" can but measure, record, evaluate, and uncover estimable "facts" for further scrutiny and review.

If "science" accounts that your nose is three times larger than the average amongst humans, and that your measure of testable intellect is 30% below the accounted averages..."science" may deduce that you have a large proboscis and a meager intelligence...but does not presume to answer "why" this is evidently so.

That available "answer" remains within the domain of religious "faith"....even within full consideration of identical "evidences" of fair measure and evaluation.

If only your God was like a roadside telephone pole...

...that some random car collision might suitably confirm as "existent"; instead of being some "claimed" invisible and (albeit) undefinable "entity".

 

[GadFly]

The only truly neutral position is agnosticism. The atheist, like the believer has taken a stand. Is that stand based upon faith, though? In my experience, that is entirely dependent on the individual.

Agnosticism is based on a person's inability to reason. If one has no premises to defend, the neutral position is only what is left. Brain dead is not a position to be admired neither is that of an agnostic. Why did you say you were on this forum? We hope it was not to simply ridicule others that make the forum interesting by being willing to put their ideas out here for discussion. Why don't you add to the purpose of the forum? We all would enjoy your participation more than we enjoy your quick comments from time to time.

 

[Father Heathen]

Agnosticism is based on a person's inability to reason. If one has no premises to defend, the neutral position is only what is left. Brain dead is not a position to be admired neither is that of an agnostic. Why did you say you were on this forum? We hope it was not to simply ridicule others that make the forum interesting by being willing to put their ideas out here for discussion. Why don't you add to the purpose of the forum? We all would enjoy your participation more than we enjoy your quick comments from time to time.

And I suppose you think your trolling is an enjoyable contribution to this forum? I think Storm adds far more than you do - some depth, substance, intelligence and insight. What do you have to offer?

 

[GadFly]

There is no "evidence" of god that is in any way equivolent to the evidences found in science. To experience deity is a personal thing and cannot be proven absolutely to anyone else other than the person having the experience. Some people may have like experiences and therefore find commonality in their beliefs...and hence, belief structures. But "evidence" is not a word that can be used for deity in any scientific or publically published arena.

What you say is not true. All through this thread the atheist have maintained that there is nothing in this world that can be proven 100%. I guess that is true if you consider that not every person is protected from polio who takes the Salk vaccine. But we don't conclude that the science which created the vaccine should be disregarded because of the small percentage who take the vaccine also contract polio. There is a science that will explain why the small percentage did contract polio. Science is evidence of Absolute truth and that is why we trust science.

The fact that science exist is evidence that God exist. So are many other things evidence that God exist; for example, the eternal rules of math, eternal rules of logic, eternal rules of self awareness, etc. all of these speak of God. Although some will never here nature's speech.

In a forum like this where people are interested in establishing their personal point of view, the reasoning man must not give credence to ideas that will harm him. He must give credence to ideas that will help him to find the best way to live. If Atheism is that way for you, live in it. But if there is a better way, you only harm yourself by not investigating the purposed evidence of God. I don't care what atheist believe, they are free to believe whatever. But my hope is that everybody realizes that each person has the right to choose their way of life based on whatever evidence they find that says, this the way: walk in it.

As I have observed the atheist argue among themselves in this thread, it would be impossible to pin them down on a single premise that they would not change to prove a point. They act like a pack of wild dogs. If the believer was not present occasionally to offer them a free meal, they would bit and feed upon each other until they were all consumed. They are not united on anything nor do they have any purpose but to confuse and attack. If they must they would, when left alone, consume themselves out of existence.

 

[Sunstone]

Agnosticism is based on a person's inability to reason. If one has no premises to defend, the neutral position is only what is left. Brain dead is not a position to be admired neither is that of an agnostic. Why did you say you were on this forum? We hope it was not to simply ridicule others that make the forum interesting by being willing to put their ideas out here for discussion. Why don't you add to the purpose of the forum? We all would enjoy your participation more than we enjoy your quick comments from time to time.

Gadfly, Storm is a valued and respected member of this Forum. Your attempt to suggest otherwise is entirely unwarranted, an you, Sir, owe Storm an apology for asserting that she adds nothing to this Forum.

 

[Willamena]

Agnosticism is based on a person's inability to reason.

Just the opposite. Agnosticism is based on a sound philosophical position that allows that our perceptions of the world describe the world, rather than define it.

 

[Magic Man]

If I could have one flighty wish fulfilled, it would be that divine "revelation" might include some/any better understanding amongst the most ardently pious adherents that "belief" is a matter of accepting faith...with neither attached burdens of evidence or proof as requisite validation of said faith.

Rationalization is not the equivalent of reason, any more that personal insistence (of any claim) constitutes burdened evidence.

Very well said. This is a point I wish all theists understood.

 

[Magic Man]

Agnosticism is based on a person's inability to reason. If one has no premises to defend, the neutral position is only what is left. Brain dead is not a position to be admired neither is that of an agnostic. Why did you say you were on this forum? We hope it was not to simply ridicule others that make the forum interesting by being willing to put their ideas out here for discussion. Why don't you add to the purpose of the forum? We all would enjoy your participation more than we enjoy your quick comments from time to time.

Please do not ever insult Storm again. She makes many great contributions to these forums. What do you think you add to this forum?

 

[Storm]

Thanks, guys!

 

[M O N S T E R]

Would you be willing to give up your brand of atheism if the existence of God was proven to you by correct reasoning and evidence?

Define God.