The Health Care Bill Passes!

[Troublemane]

Ill say it again, if you are a Christian Scientist, you don't have to carry the insurance. Who is going to determine whether a person is really a Christian Scientist or not? Or if they just became one to avoid the penalty? the bill violates every kind of equal protection principle. it will get shot down, or we are royally screwed as a country.

this is not a reform, its a cheap attempt at getting something through, there is absolutely nothing remotely intelligent about passing a massive spending bill in the middle of a recession.

if anything, the republicans are to blame. when they were in office they spent like drunken sailors, giving drunken sailors a bad name. then, after they had abandoned their base, they were booted out of office, and now we are facing the consequences. now we have total incompetant idealogues in charge, thinking they can pile debt to the moon and that (if we dont have to pay for it until after 2014) the public wont think its so bad...until long after it is too late to change. by then we will be so mired in debt, the country wont even be able to afford to pay the interest on its debt, much less pay for anyone's healthcare.

when that happens, who will you complain to? the government? hahaha! you might just wind up on a list of un-patriotic people. deathcamps are not far behind then.

I am not happy to see it, but maybe we have to witness first hand how these idiots will absolutely destroy this country. after we are completely destroyed by it, maybe people will wise up and change? who knows.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ill say it again, if you are a Christian Scientist, you don't have to carry the insurance.

I think that's kinda nuts, though if the choice was between that and covering Christian Science "practitioners" under health insurance (which was proposed and shot down last year), then it's probably the lesser of two evils.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Ill say it again, if you are a Christian Scientist, you don't have to carry the insurance. Who is going to determine whether a person is really a Christian Scientist or not? Or if they just became one to avoid the penalty? the bill violates every kind of equal protection principle. it will get shot down, or we are royally screwed as a country.

this is not a reform, its a cheap attempt at getting something through, there is absolutely nothing remotely intelligent about passing a massive spending bill in the middle of a recession.

if anything, the republicans are to blame. when they were in office they spent like drunken sailors, giving drunken sailors a bad name. then, after they had abandoned their base, they were booted out of office, and now we are facing the consequences. now we have total incompetant idealogues in charge, thinking they can pile debt to the moon and that (if we dont have to pay for it until after 2014) the public wont think its so bad...until long after it is too late to change. by then we will be so mired in debt, the country wont even be able to afford to pay the interest on its debt, much less pay for anyone's healthcare.

when that happens, who will you complain to? the government? hahaha! you might just wind up on a list of un-patriotic people. deathcamps are not far behind then.

I am not happy to see it, but maybe we have to witness first hand how these idiots will absolutely destroy this country. after we are completely destroyed by it, maybe people will wise up and change? who knows.

Its a work in progress though
Its far better than sitting on our behinds...and just hoping things will change...

 

[Mr Cheese]

I am not happy to see it, but maybe we have to witness first hand how these idiots will absolutely destroy this country. after we are completely destroyed by it, maybe people will wise up and change? who knows.

that is one real possibility....

arguably in certain areas, liek detroit for example...

its already happend....

wild dogs ruiling cities, dystopian present????!!!

 

[Troublemane]

that is one real possibility....

arguably in certain areas, liek detroit for example...

its already happend....

wild dogs ruiling cities, dystopian present????!!!

LoLz! I am hoping detroit stays that way, for purely selfish reasons! As a low-budget filmmaker, I am hoping to use it as a background for a post apocalyptic land, like Mad Max....but, it might not be such fun if that film turns out to be a documentary, like watching the real apocalypse unfold!

 

[Troublemane]

Oh, you can also opt out of paying the penalties if you are a member of the politburo,...er, I mean congress.

 

[Mister_T]

when that happens, who will you complain to? the government? hahaha! you might just wind up on a list of un-patriotic people. deathcamps are not far behind then.

Really? You think healthcare reform is a path that leads to death camps?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh, you can also opt out of paying the penalties if you are a member of the politburo,...er, I mean congress.

Why would a member of congress be in a position to pay penalties in the first place? Like other government employees, they get employer-provided health insurance.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

No lifetime caps on insurance .... that's another win for people with expensive, chronic conditions like me.

Again I stress we're not paying any MORE (in cases like mine) than we were before .... it just saves me the stress and risk of financial ruin. You all have been paying 99% of the cost of getting hemophiliacs their medicine for years now, every wealthy, civilized country does this and can afford it. The only difference is now I can concentrate on keeping myself healthy, so I won't need as much treatment in the future, and on being a productive member of society.

The other thing that's great for me is the interstate insurance exchange. Now I can work for a small business without bankrupting them, I don't have to hide the fact that I have hemophilia from my employer or risk being fired (or not hired), because I can buy lifetime insurance outside of my employer. It will be expensive but it was always going to be that way anyway.

Wasn't competition across state lines an important Republican idea? Why aren't they excited about that? They got everything they wanted, basically, except tort (sp?) reform.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Okay, you know what? I don't care of any of you believe whether or not I can afford mandatory insurance. Finances aren't really the issue here. The issue is I will spend my money how I want. I pay taxes. If the government wants to spend the tax dollars I give them on healthcare, roads, or a big bag of bubblegum they are going to do it. There is no reason to tell people they have to spend what's left on certain things. Half of my household income already goes back to the government in various taxes. Is half for me too much to ask for, especially when I am the one out here busting my butt?

 

[Magic Man]

Okay, you know what? I don't care of any of you believe whether or not I can afford mandatory insurance. Finances aren't really the issue here. The issue is I will spend my money how I want. I pay taxes. If the government wants to spend the tax dollars I give them on healthcare, roads, or a big bag of bubblegum they are going to do it. There is no reason to tell people they have to spend what's left on certain things. Half of my household income already goes back to the government in various taxes. Is half for me too much to ask for, especially when I am the one out here busting my butt?

Half of your income? Even if you were making $300,000, you wouldn't be paying half of your income to the government. I'm guessing you don't make anywhere near that.

I would much rather you pay a little more taxes and we have universal coverage. However, that's simply not possible in one big step with the current level of ignorance in this country. Instead, we have to take progressive steps like this bill. However, just like they require you to have car insurance, they now require you to have health insurance. You can look at it any way you want, but the way you've been looking at it is ridiculous and unproductive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay, you know what? I don't care of any of you believe whether or not I can afford mandatory insurance. Finances aren't really the issue here.

They were when you were arguing that the new legislation would bankrupt poor families. But if you've retracted from this position, then fine.

The issue is I will spend my money how I want. I pay taxes. If the government wants to spend the tax dollars I give them on healthcare, roads, or a big bag of bubblegum they are going to do it. There is no reason to tell people they have to spend what's left on certain things.

Or... you could look at it as another tax (albeit one that provides you with a valuable benefit), only one where you the taxpayer get to decide which contractor provides the government service.

Half of my household income already goes back to the government in various taxes. Is half for me too much to ask for, especially when I am the one out here busting my butt?

Which taxes?

I find that hard to believe, since in Canada (which generally has higher taxes than the US), when you add up every single tax (including "hidden" taxes like excise taxes on cigarettes and alcohol), the average Canadian pays about 43% of their income in tax. I would expect your percentage to be lower.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Federal income tax, state income tax, social security tax, medicaid/medicare taxes, sales tax, telecommunication tax, utility tax, and property tax. Some people even pay local county and/or city income tax. The government doesn't want you to actually look at the numbers and see how much you pay. I dare anyone that is living independently (ie: no government aid, no dorm room, no mommy help) to look at your gross pay and look what is left at the end of the year.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Federal income tax,

10% to maybe 20% (note: 20% is the tax rate for a married person filing separately making $75,000 after deductions, according to moneychimp)

state income tax,

4.9% for New Mexico (source)

social security tax,

6.2% (source)

medicaid/medicare taxes,

1.45% (source)

sales tax,

5% state sales tax, maximum 2.25% municipal sales tax (source), though presumably not on all purchases. What percentage of your expenses are subject to sales tax?

For now, let's assume 33% of your income goes to taxable expenses (seems reasonable as a high-end ballpark number to me, but feel free to correct me) and you live in the highest-taxed county in the state. This would mean you spend about 2.4% of your income on sales tax.

telecommunication tax,

Can't find the actual amount for this one; what percentage of your income is it?

utility tax,

Can't find this one at all.

and property tax.

State average of $26.47 per $1000 of property value (source).

Assuming that your house is worth about five times your annual income (a ballpark figure I calculated based on the ratio between my own income and the value of my house), this would be equivalent to $26.47 per $200 of income, or 13.2%.

So... adding all that up, we have about 38% to 48% total tax (plus whatever the amounts are for telecommunication and utility taxes, but I don't think these would be that much). Based on what you've said here in this thread and elsewhere, I assume you're not at the top end of this range. IOW, you aren't paying half your income in taxes.

Some people even pay local county and/or city income tax. The government doesn't want you to actually look at the numbers and see how much you pay. I dare anyone that is living independently (ie: no government aid, no dorm room, no mommy help) to look at your gross pay and look what is left at the end of the year.

According to the Fraser Institute, I pay around 42% in total tax per year. The average "tax freedom day" for my province is June 1. And I'm okay with that.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Take your 48% and add the fact that many of our states charge 10% sales tax now. Telecommunication and utility taxes are basically sales tax plus federal surcharges on your utility bill for the purchase of that utility. Based on your numbers I may be paying more than 50% now.

What the heck is a tax freedom day?

 

[Magic Man]

Federal income tax, state income tax, social security tax, medicaid/medicare taxes, sales tax, telecommunication tax, utility tax, and property tax. Some people even pay local county and/or city income tax. The government doesn't want you to actually look at the numbers and see how much you pay. I dare anyone that is living independently (ie: no government aid, no dorm room, no mommy help) to look at your gross pay and look what is left at the end of the year.

I generally pay a total of about 28% in state and federal income, social security and medicare. I then pay 6% sales tax, but that's only on what I spend on some things (excluding a lot of the food I eat and some other things). All told, I probably pay about 34% in taxes. I certainly don't pay anywhere near 50% in taxes, and I'd bet I make at least close to what you make.

 

[Magic Man]

I generally pay a total of about 28% in state and federal income, social security and medicare. I then pay 6% sales tax, but that's only on what I spend on some things (excluding a lot of the food I eat and some other things). All told, I probably pay about 34% in taxes. I certainly don't pay anywhere near 50% in taxes, and I'd bet I make at least close to what you make.

OK, so excluding utility tax and telecommunications tax (whatever that is), I'm paying about 42.5% in taxes. I doubt you're paying 7.5% more than I am.

 

[Gentoo]

Take your 48% and add the fact that many of our states charge 10% sales tax now. Telecommunication and utility taxes are basically sales tax plus federal surcharges on your utility bill for the purchase of that utility. Based on your numbers I may be paying more than 50% now.

Stop making yourself seem worse off than you really are. It's getting old.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Take your 48% and add the fact that many of our states charge 10% sales tax now.

But yours doesn't. We were talking about your specific case.

Wait - 48% would've been the rate for someone with a total federal income tax rate of 20%, which is what someone making $75,000 after deductions would have.

You make $75,000 after deductions? I find that surprising, since before you said that you only made a few hundred dollars a year more than the cutoff for state financial assistance.

Telecommunication and utility taxes are basically sales tax plus federal surcharges on your utility bill for the purchase of that utility.

That's fine; how much are they? What percentage of your income goes toward these taxes?

Based on your numbers I may be paying more than 50% now.

I strongly doubt that.

What the heck is a tax freedom day?

It's an invention of the Fraser Institute to illustrate the tax burden on the individual. Every year, they add up all the taxes that an average person pays: income tax, sales tax, property tax, and even "hidden" taxes like the excise tax we pay on alcohol that's built into the price. Then, once they have a total tax percentage, they divide up the whole year by the same proportion. The idea is that if you had to pay all your taxes up front, all your income until "tax freedom day" would go to the government. IOW, what you make before Tax Freedom Day all goes to the government; what you make after all goes to you.

It's basically a PR stunt to let them make the news every year when they do a big media blitz when Tax Freedom Day comes around.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Reality check: even with this legislation I would be paying nearly $4,000 a year in private health insurance premiums, with my income of $25,000/year that's about 16% of my income. It's only a little less for other grad students at my university. So you could raise income taxes by 10% to pay for universal health care, and it would still be worth it for me and probably thousands of graduate students across the country.