The Logic of God

[Heathen Hammer]

If you made us with your own essence

and we are rebellious, disobedient and sinful

what does that say about you?

 

[farahjisa]

I am not able to see all the replies to have a updated debate. So I am starting from the first post.

I'm placing this thread in debate as it may well turn into one.
But for the most part, what I'm asking is a one statement essay that you believe shows a line of logic.

Pick any thought or feeling you might consider beyond refute.
Support with your cause for belief.

If you can refrain the rebuttal of someone else's essay....that would be good.
This thread is more to declaration than argument.

But should we digress to debate and rebuttal....oh well.

The logic is that before creating man he created everything without the power of free will. He wanted to see what a creature do when he is given it. He give man this power and the involvement of Satan at the same time. Then he observe that most of them are not grateful to their creator.

 

[Oryonder]

So this is how it's going to keep going? You ask us to blindly accept your side, refuse to argue it, and then ignore arguments against? Well you definitely can't lose a debate that way I suppose. I don't have issue with it. Fear can have a great effect on us, especially fear of death. As long as on some level you realize it will all end, I've done my job. Just know acceptance will only improve the short time you have.

This is all too common a theme. Avoidance, denial, and a complete lack of ability to stay on point.

Demonization is common usually coupled with ad hom of some sort.

When an argument is completely and obviously refuted (say using the Bible) they will ignore the post completely like it never existed.

Some of the more fringe ( more often found in use by fringe Evangelical or Pentacostal/ "born again" groups as these are most succeptable) couple sophisticated mind control techniques to religious teachings ... but this is another story.

 

[Oryonder]

Wake up people...this is not another 'prove God' thread.

So picture yourself as God....yes you can.
After millions of years of creativity...You are still alone.
Someone had to be First.
Your creation responds to your touch...but it does not really respond.
You are self aware.

Dividing your 'self' makes your own image...but that would be...talking to yourself.
No question without answer.
You really do 'know it all'.
No conversation...no unique perspective.

The only other item to work with is all of that substance you've created.
Chemistry has rules...you made them.
So this 'garden' is one of the few places where the substance churns...just right.
Not to hot...not too cold....just right.

And it is here on this planet you blend your spirit into substance.....Man.

And Man is such a form it needs to develop into a being that desires to know more than...
the reach of it's arm....the scent in it's nose....and it's line of sight.

Now can we proceed from this platform?
Or do you insist upon your podiums of denial?

I have proceeded exactly on the basis of what you are suggesting.

If you walk down that path it is clear that the story in Genesis has some fatal flaws.

I stated long ago that it would be a lonely existence spending infinity by yourself.

Obviously you would want to create something that was autonomous.

Even this autonomous being however would have certain mental characteristics that the creator would be aware of.

Like a human baby, this entity thinks for itself, however any parent knows that this baby is innocent, completely trusting, and has little knowledge of much.

Put a young child in a room with a person the child knows and that person will easily convince that child to touch the handle of a hot pot.

Eve had zero chance against the serpent and God knew this.

The test was "rigged" .. the grade was already known prior to the start of the test.

What is bizzare is that this God punishes Adam and Eve.

This is like giving someone a choice between Stalin and Hitler to vote for and then punishing that person for choosing the bad guy.

 

[Thief]

I have proceeded exactly on the basis of what you are suggesting.

If you walk down that path it is clear that the story in Genesis has some fatal flaws.

I stated long ago that it would be a lonely existence spending infinity by yourself.

Obviously you would want to create something that was autonomous.

Even this autonomous being however would have certain mental characteristics that the creator would be aware of.

Like a human baby, this entity thinks for itself, however any parent knows that this baby is innocent, completely trusting, and has little knowledge of much.

Put a young child in a room with a person the child knows and that person will easily convince that child to touch the handle of a hot pot.

Eve had zero chance against the serpent and God knew this.

The test was "rigged" .. the grade was already known prior to the start of the test.

What is bizzare is that this God punishes Adam and Eve.

This is like giving someone a choice between Stalin and Hitler to vote for and then punishing that person for choosing the bad guy.

All good but that one item.

We humans would like to live forever as is.....without suffering.
We then assume that something went wrong between Man and God.

It's a misconception.
We were never intended to live in this form forever.
This form serves the purpose of showing you the creation, without God popping up in your head.

Your 'autonomous' and linear existence is suffering.
But how you deal with it makes you who you are.
Once this form falls to dust .....the real you stands before God.

Good luck.

 

[Thief]

If you made us with your own essence

and we are rebellious, disobedient and sinful

what does that say about you?

Who's we?...speaking for yourself?

If I were your creator....seeking that you be 'yourself'...
I would be willing to stand back and allow you all potential.

Then of course, treat you as you did unto others.
Fair enough?

 

[1137]

Wake up people...this is not another 'prove God' thread.

Nobody is asking for proof, just logical inference. My last post (which you ignored) directly asked for this.

So picture yourself as God....yes you can.
After millions of years of creativity...You are still alone.
Someone had to be First.
Your creation responds to your touch...but it does not really respond.
You are self aware.

This does not make any sense. You are saying that God is not beyond human comprehension in any way? Even atheists don't argue against such a God because you shouldn't even call that God. God is supposedly all capable. Every single thing that it could possibly do was done within an immesuarably small amount of time, leaving only self destruction, which this unbelievably bored God would probably do. God only needs to exist for an immesurably small amount of time, and past that the idea is illogical.

Dividing your 'self' makes your own image...but that would be...talking to yourself.
No question without answer.
You really do 'know it all'.
No conversation...no unique perspective.

The only other item to work with is all of that substance you've created.
Chemistry has rules...you made them.
So this 'garden' is one of the few places where the substance churns...just right.
Not to hot...not too cold....just right.

That's all well and good, but how about the fact that chemistry needs no creator? How about the fact that earth is perfect for the species that live here, but alien species may not be able to survive? You are making gigantic leaps.

And it is here on this planet you blend your spirit into substance.....Man.

And Man is such a form it needs to develop into a being that desires to know more than...
the reach of it's arm....the scent in it's nose....and it's line of sight.

Now can we proceed from this platform?
Or do you insist upon your podiums of denial?

You haven't supported anything. Once again you have thrown stuff out there that you wish us to blindly accept without showing why it is even logical to believe in the first place. I am well aware that you are incapable of doing it, I'd just like you "hear" you say it.

 

[jreedmx]

But for the most part, what I'm asking is a one statement essay that you believe shows a line of logic.

Pick any thought or feeling you might consider beyond refute.
Support with your cause for belief.

If you believe that God is the creator and humanity resembles God then by looking at individuals you can understand that not only does God think in a logical way but God loves, and interacts in many ways not just with a progressive argument. For some God is the ultimate intellect and would have perfect reasoning. What if God really gets tried of logic and philosophy and gets a headache trying to figure things out when life is constantly moving the goal posts? Then God would have to be pragmatic and deal with the result of our interactions and take the best result and then go from there.

 

[jreedmx]

If you made us with your own essence

and we are rebellious, disobedient and sinful

what does that say about you?

Just as a parent has no control over how a child behaves or misbehaves the same thing applies to the relationship between God and ourselves. We each have free will to choose whether we interact with good things or bad. If a parent takes Gods position and continues to love and guide the child even though it misbehaves then what does that say about you?

 

[Thief]

From another thread moments ago....I quote myself.

All I maintain is God first.
As Creator.

Placing matter into existence before God....
God is then not the Creator.
The rock in your drive way is your god.
(end quote)

When answering questions, you should expect me to ignore poor or redirecting items.

I don't owe anyone an answer.
I won't chase every question.

That would be much like having some child tugging at my pant leg and asking 'why?'

I see participants not doing that one essential thing.
Sit still and decide.....Spirit first or substance?
If you say substance you are headed for your grave and eternal darkness.
Nothing waits for your spirit.

If you say Spirit first....
then you should be making consideration what will stand over you when you die.

 

[Oryonder]

All good but that one item.

We humans would like to live forever as is.....without suffering.
We then assume that something went wrong between Man and God.

It's a misconception.
We were never intended to live in this form forever.
This form serves the purpose of showing you the creation, without God popping up in your head.

Your 'autonomous' and linear existence is suffering.
But how you deal with it makes you who you are.
Once this form falls to dust .....the real you stands before God.

Good luck.

As is usual you give no justification for why you think my claim not good and wander off topic.

 

[Thief]

Not at all.
The topic is the logic of God.
Do you have a better or more likely scenario?

 

[Oryonder]

Not at all.
The topic is the logic of God.
Do you have a better or more likely scenario?

and what was your justification for why you think my claim is not good ?

which is in fact a more logical scenario that actually relates to the discussion of Genesis and the logic of God.

 

[Thief]

and what was your justification for why you think my claim is not good ?

which is in fact a more logical scenario that actually relates to the discussion of Genesis and the logic of God.

Are you quoting yourself...post #379?

God as a liar?...I think not.
And later you get to say it again...to Him.

 

[1137]

So you really won't provide the logical inference that convinces us you are correct? Even if we abandon reason and evidence and accept this completely unsupported "spirit", it wouldn't change fact, only o our comfort level. You will die, Thief. It'll all be over and that's it. Make peace with it and go appreciate life!

 

[Thief]

So you really won't provide the logical inference that convinces us you are correct? Even if we abandon reason and evidence and accept this completely unsupported "spirit", it wouldn't change fact, only o our comfort level. You will die, Thief. It'll all be over and that's it. Make peace with it and go appreciate life!

Same to you...
and I will continue to enjoy the next life as well.

So what if you can't see how it works.

 

[Oryonder]

Are you quoting yourself...post #379?

God as a liar?...I think not.
And later you get to say it again...to Him.

Never do I claim God is a liar. Off the pipe lad.

 

[1137]

Same to you...
and I will continue to enjoy the next life as well.

So what if you can't see how it works.

Same to me? Yeah good one, you got me, I accept fact and reason :sad4:

 

[1137]

Are you saying that if we reject your unsupported concepts we rot, but if we accept "spirit" we move on?

I honestly swear if you just admit to being a fideist I'll stop pushing reason on you. We should be completely honest to ourselves about ourselves. Can you please say it or provide evidence supported reason?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Just as a parent has no control over how a child behaves or misbehaves the same thing applies to the relationship between God and ourselves. We each have free will to choose whether we interact with good things or bad. If a parent takes Gods position and continues to love and guide the child even though it misbehaves then what does that say about you?

God isn't a parent.

You have an actual relationship with your parent - unless they abandoned you. You do not have a relationship with God. Any more than you do with Shakira or any other celebrity whom you admire, from afar.

If a parent continues to love and guide a child even though it misbehaves, we say they are a good parent. Please explain how that idea is even salient to your point. According to you God is not guiding you.

Your aim of responsibility is all over the place.

If God hates us for instilling us with sin, he's a ****** parent.