sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is no "Caesar Edition."
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The Myths of Christianity
- Thread starter MurphtheSurf
- Start date
There is no "Caesar Edition."
How about a Herod Edition? Luke 3 vs1,2
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
well, since Luke is obviously Gentile, and Herod obviously Judaic, I'd have to say that's a "no."
Muffled
Jesus in me
Not according to Darwin. According to him we evolved by trial and error. Any random change that was not viable did not continue. Only the changes that were viable continued on. That is the theory of natural selection.
However modern science is proving that evolution does not have to be the explanation because a knowledgeable entity can engineer changes. Of course any changes done in the lab would still fall under the rule of natural selection ie anything coming out of the lab without viability will not continue on.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Au contraire
(NIV) Luke 2:34-35
Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, [35] so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."
If a sword had ever stabbed Mary the mother of Jesus' physical body, history would have remembered.
No JW would ever come to someone's door and say
(NIV) Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Because no one who believes that the soul is the body would have as part of their lingo
(NIV) Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The only people who state things in such a way are those who have no fear that their audience will conclude that the body and soul are distinct.
Would you tell someone
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
-without a disclaimer, like Jesus did?
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KJV translated the last word of verse 28 as 'hell'
and at Matthew [5v22] as 'hellfire'.
In the Greek Interlinear the last word of verse 28 is Not hell but Gehenna.
[Hebrew Ge'i Hinnom] [Latin Gehenna]
What is Gehenna but a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed Not kept burning forever. So 'Gehenna' is a fitting symbol for destruction. Such as at Psalm [92v7] that the wicked will be destroyed forever.
All wicked souls will perish or be destroyed. -2nd Peter 3v9 B.
Whereas the 'biblical hell' [sheol] is where Jesus was until God resurrected Jesus out of the Bible's hell. -Acts 2vs27,31,32
Like Jesus, according to Revelation [20vs13,14], everyone in the Bible's hell [not Gehenna] is 'delivered up' meaning resurrected.- Rev 1v18
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Sheol is grave, not hell. Therefore sheol is not the Bible's 'hell', it's the Bible's 'grave'.
You missed my point in Matthrw 10:28. I was not emphasizing hell, but that Jesus spoke of body and soul distinctly.
Hell is the English word for sheol. Biblical hell [sheol] is the common grave.
Matthew [10v28] fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body.
Destroy soul
Destroy body
The word 'hell' in that KJV verse is Not sheol but: Gehenna.
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed not kept burning forever.
Who is destroyed in the biblical hell mentioned at Rev 20vs13,14 ?
After everyone in the Bible's hell is 'delivered up' resurrected, then isn't it emptied-out hell that is cast into second death ?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Hell is not the english word for Sheol, Grave is the english word for Sheol. The people who called their brother fool instead of Raca would not be in danger of being killed and thrown into a pit outside the city gates. The reference was to something greater.
Lastly, the reference to hell in Matthew 10:28 is also greater than Gehenna since
1. God did not throw people into that Gehenna.
2. Jesus still made a huge distinction between body AND soul.
(NIV) Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
How does one kill the body and NOT BE ABLE to kill the soul, if indeed they are one?
3. Jesus indicated that God could do something to you AFTER your body is killed.
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Who can destroy both soul and body in 'Gehenna' ?
Gehenna is the Greek word at Matthew 10v28.
What word does the Greek Interlinear use as the last word in verse 28 ?__________
[Hebrew: Gei Hinnom]
Bodies in the grave [sheol] can be there because of being killed as often happens in war.
Because there will be a resurrection [Acts 24v15] does not mean a person's actual dead rotted body will be resurrected, but their life as a person [soul] will be resurrected.
According to Revelation [20 vs13,14] who is destroyed in hell [sheol/haides] ?
Gehenna is the Greek word at Matthew 10v28.
What word does the Greek Interlinear use as the last word in verse 28 ?__________
[Hebrew: Gei Hinnom]
Bodies in the grave [sheol] can be there because of being killed as often happens in war.
Because there will be a resurrection [Acts 24v15] does not mean a person's actual dead rotted body will be resurrected, but their life as a person [soul] will be resurrected.
According to Revelation [20 vs13,14] who is destroyed in hell [sheol/haides] ?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Their life as a person? Elaborate please. How do you now separate the [soul] from the person's actual dead rotted body?
Not separate.
Adam did Not have a separate soul from his body.
Adam's body was animated when Adam received the breath of life according to Gen 2v7.
So, at death Adam became a breath-less dead soul or life-less soul.
The 'soul that sins dies' according to Ezekiel [18vs4,20; Acts 3v23]
Adam sinned Adam died. No part of Adam lived on, or separated on.
An actual rotted body does not have to be resurrected.
Resurrected 'as the life of the person' in a sound healthy body.
Just as Jesus cured people making them whole.
Jesus was showing on a small scale what he was going to do on a LARGE or GRAND scale during his 1000-year reign over earth.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Thank you.
Then it goes back to the question.
(NIV) Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
How does one kill the body and NOT BE ABLE to kill the soul, if no part of them 'lives' on?
&
If so, how does our non-living entity get put into a new body? Are we stored as blueprints like data?
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How did Jesus friend get a 'new' healthy body at John chapter eleven ?
'Stored blueprints like data' stored details in God's memory.
-Luke 12v7; 21v18
Man can't kill the soul in the sense that: man can not prevent a resurrection.
Please keep in mind that KJV uses the word 'hell' in verse 28,
but the Greek Interlinear has the word there as: Gehenna.
The definition of hell and the definition of Gehenna is Not the same.
The 'biblical hell' is the common grave where Jesus was. -Acts 2vs27,31.
God resurrected Jesus out of the 'biblical hell' - Acts 2v32; Psalm 16v10
'Gehenna' was that garbage pit of destruction.
Both soul and body are destroyed in Gehenna by God not man.
Those committing the unforgivable sin are in Gehenna not hell.
-Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6
Everyone comes out of the 'biblical hell' [gravedom] according to
Rev. 20 vs13,14.
No body comes out of Gehenna.- Psalm 92v7
God is the one who destroys one's soul [one's future prospect as a living soul]
Or God is going to have Jesus resurrect a person to enjoy everlasting life.
Life to either heaven [Rev. 20v6; 14v4; 5vs9,10; 1v18],
or have 'life as a living soul' on earth with a physical body during Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over a paradisaic earth.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I thought you were headed in the direction of saying a soul is in essence God's memory of us. You make a technically plausible argument on the surface, but before I begin to address your scripture references and arguments, your argument falls short on a major area. Beliefs create a culture and belief system. Baptists believe that a person is saved by accepting Jesus in a prayer, but cannot offer any examples of people being saved by praying Jesus into their hearts. They say baptism is a declaration or act of obedience, or commemoration, but again there's no 'talk' of baptism in this light in the Bible and no example. Catholics justify baptizing babies by citing the Phillipian jailer. If infant baptism was the norm, or even existent, it would be out in the open in the Scriptures, not hidden in inference and implication 'his entire household was baptized'. There's no talk of multiple infant baptism ceremonies, no pitchers of water, no mention of any kind of the event - no culture. Dominant beliefs of the day don't hide in loopholes. They are commonplace and spoken about openly and plainly like in John 3:16 and Luke 13:5 and Acts 2:38 (not soul references btw). The culture that the soul equals God's memory of us is neither conversed about nor alluded to in scripture. People don't refer to who we are as a person or our life force around the scriptural water cooler, per say. It's not NT cultural. It's gotta pass this test. Accepting Jesus as personal savior for example, fails this test miserably. You would expect multitudes of people being led into 'accepting' or 'receiving' of Jesus prayers.
I'll endeavor to address the technical aspects next.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Lazarus's body was regenerated just like in Luke 9:40-41.
Paul would not have spoken thus if he was to be "a memory".
Philippians 1 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
Samuel is not "a memory", but a spirit
8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. Consult a spirit for me, he said, and bring up for me the one I name.
11 Then the woman asked, Whom shall I bring up for you?
Bring up Samuel, he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!
13 The king said to her, Dont be afraid. What do you see?
The woman said, I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.
14 What does he look like? he asked.
An old man wearing a robe is coming up, she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?
I am in great distress, Saul said. The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do. 16 Samuel said, Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighborsto David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.
Certainly, Saul believed that people were spirits as well as bodies.
I believe they used hell because the significance was greater than that of the pit outside Jerusalem.
Acts 2:27 refers to hades (a holding place), not sheol the grave. Psalm 16:10 does not refer to hell, but to sheol, for which the english word is the Grave. Acts 2:32 makes no reference as to where he was raised from, so irrelevant scripture.
Genehenna is not the word here. It's מְדָ לְהִ ָ l·eshmd·m a Hebrew word.
God does destroy the soul, but in the manner described by
2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
and
Matthew 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
There is no weeping and gnashing of teeth if all of you is dead and a memory of God does not weep and gnash their teeth.
1 Thessalonians 1 Paul, Silas[a] and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you. 2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Acts 17
In Thessalonica
1 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah, he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.
These God fearing greeks, part of the church to whom Paul told would be raised were definitely not part of the 144,000. Paul referred to all of those in the church - in italics.
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1nd Thess 1v9 They will be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION .........
FOREVER DESTRUCTION awaits the wicked according to Psalm 92v7
Jesus was caught up in the cloud [Acts 1v9] when the resurrected Jesus ascended to heaven. So those that are left will be caught up [resurrected] as Jesus was.
Physical 'Flesh and blood' [1st Cor. 15v50] can Not inherit the kingdom......
FOREVER DESTRUCTION awaits the wicked according to Psalm 92v7
Jesus was caught up in the cloud [Acts 1v9] when the resurrected Jesus ascended to heaven. So those that are left will be caught up [resurrected] as Jesus was.
Physical 'Flesh and blood' [1st Cor. 15v50] can Not inherit the kingdom......