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The prophet peace be upon him and his wives

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll discuss pedophilia later. So when I see homosexuality and that goes against my morals does it make it a crime? "If that is how you wish to look at it [homosexuality]. But it really doesn't make homosexuality less of a crime".

Homosexuality is a lot different to paedophilia. You cannot compare them life this. You have to treat them separately. Paedophilia is considered wrong because of the biological and (more importantly) psychological immaturity of the under-aged person. You have to analyse this from these areas; biological and psychological.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
I'll discuss pedophilia later. So when I see homosexuality and that goes against my morals does it make it a crime? "If that is how you wish to look at it [homosexuality]. But it really doesn't make homosexuality less of a crime".
There are a few morals I treat as absolute, as in I do not compromise when it comes to them. Adults who have sex with children, i.e. pedophilia, is one of those morals.

I am curious, though. Where is the line drawn? Why is it tolerated that a man can have sex with a 10 year old girl but not that two adult men at the same age can have sex? Assuming there is no force, of course.

And I do realize this may be off topic, so if the OP wishes it to be discussed somewhere else then that would be fine by me.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Homosexuality is a lot different to paedophilia. You cannot compare them life this. You have to treat them separately. Paedophilia is considered wrong because of the biological and (more importantly) psychological immaturity of the under-aged person. You have to analyse this from these areas; biological and psychological.
Which is why I consider it to be absolutely wrong. Great post, couldn´t have put it better myself!
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
I am definitely saying that it is wrong for fathers to marry off their twelve-year old daughters, yes. Do you disagree? Do you think it's moral to marry a little girl?
I am agree with in this time , in the recently past , it's ok when a girl 12 years old married , i don't know why ?!!! not only my mother or my grandmother married at young age , all the girls here were married at young age , 12 to 15 years ,
they were mature very early in recently past , but this time it's diferent
 

Starsoul

Truth
I would have posted this earlier, but people usually are quicker to criticize others than to gain some actual facts regarding their false criticism. The Hadith regarding the age of Hazrat Ayesha at the time of marriage, to be 9 is widely held among scholars as a ' Not the Real presentation of facts, quotation out of context,'.

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call of Islam.


The life of Hazrat Aisha (Radhiyallahu-Anha) is proof that a woman can be far more learned than men and that she can be the teacher of scholars and experts. Her life is also proof that the same woman can be totally feminine and be a source of pleasure, joy and comfort to her husband, to negate the status of Hazrat Aisha RA by designing a conspiracy against her age, a hadith had been floated after specific alteration to prove the false claim that she was married with Muhammad SAWW (PBUH) around 9 years of age .

According to the Scholars the hadith reporting Hazrat Aisha’s age are “weak”. ( chain of specific narrators not verified)

There is material from both the hadith writers (Sahih and Muslim) and earlier Islamic histories suggesting Aisha must have been much older than nine when married.

1) According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about 8 years before Hijrah( Migration). However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time.

So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage has to be between 14 to 21.

2) According to almost All the Historians, Asma; the elder sister of Aisha, was 10 years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time.

Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

3) The hadith regarding her age has several aspects. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina.


Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.


This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not 9 as misinterpreted/alleged by the perpetrators of that thought.

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.” [8]


This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.




Two further evidences cited by Maulana Muhammad Ali
In the footnotes of his Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari, entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, Maulana Muhammad Ali had pointed out reports of two events which show that Aisha could not have been born later than the year of the Call. These are as follows.


1. The above mentioned statement by Aisha in Bukhari, about her earliest memory of her parents being that they were followers of Islam, begins with the following words in its version in Bukhari’s Kitab-ul-Kafalat. We quote this from the English translation of Bukhari by M. Muhsin Khan:


“Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant.” [9]


Commenting on this report, Maulana Muhammad Ali writes:
“This report sheds some light on the question of the age of Aisha. … The mention of the persecution of Muslims along with the emigration to Ethiopia clearly shows that this refers to the fifth or the sixth year of the Call. … At that time Aisha was of an age to discern things, and so her birth could not have been later than the first year of the Call.” [10]
Again, this would make her more than fourteen at the time of the consummation of her marriage.


2. There is a report in Sahih Bukhari as follows:
“On the day (of the battle) of Uhud when (some) people retreated and left the Prophet, I saw Aisha daughter of Abu Bakr and Umm Sulaim, with their robes tucked up so that the bangles around their ankles were visible hurrying with their water skins (in another narration it is said, ‘carrying the water skins on their backs’). Then they would pour the water in the mouths of the people, and return to fill the water skins again and came back again to pour water in the mouths of the people.” [11]


Maulana Muhammad Ali writes in a footnote under this report:
“It should also be noted that Aisha joined the Holy Prophet’s household only one year before the battle of Uhud. According to the common view she would be only ten years of age at this time, which is certainly not a suitable age for the work she did on this occasion. This also shows that she was not so young at this time.” [12]

If, as shown in the previous section above, Aisha was 19 at the time of the consummation of her marriage, then she would be twenty years old at the time of the battle of Uhud. It may be added that on the earlier occasion of the battle of Badr when some Muslim youths tried, out of eagerness, to go along with the Muslim army to the field of battle, the Holy Prophet Muhammad sent them back on account of their young age (allowing only one such youngster, Umair ibn Abi Waqqas, to accompany his older brother the famous Companion Sa‘d ibn Abi Waqqas). It seems, therefore, highly unlikely that if Aisha was ten years old the Holy Prophet would have allowed her to accompany the army to the field of battle.
 
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Starsoul

Truth
Its hard to understand the psyche of societies who support, promote sexual relationships between same sexes, WANT to practice sexuality, incest among their own siblings, and see no harm in fixating sex into every other relation they have under the name of ' rightful right of the seuxal desires' . My young 12 yr old cousin's teacher in US announced the other day that she was in love with another kid in the class and the age difference is not going to keep her from loving him and wanting 'to be' with him.

How can pedophiling be looked down upon in a society where incest is the next big trend of 'catching up on loosing newer ways to express sexuality'? where it is already practiced under the name of religion, what really is the limit of sexuality if there is no limit to Love?

Will such people not demand sex to be a part of their parental/paternal relationships too, shortly when they deem it too significant to be a part of any significant relationship? Afterall, all they have to say is ' I was madly, am in love with him/her, and I can fall in love with anybody, anything, anytime, be it a dead plant or their own baby sister and sex is the only way i can deliver those feelings of respect and admiration.' But ahh thats looked upon as ' regardable', freedom of basic rights and blah.

But when there are historical facts under discussion when women of a certain area hit puberty much earlier than in other parts of the world and used to marry respectfully instead of exhibiting vain vile sexuality to every other guy on the streets, its hardly a wonder what definitions of morals are being adhered to.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I explained how it wasnt little girls as you're seeing it, but it seems you either cant stand the idea that it may not be as horrible as you think , or just dont want to listen.

As I said earlier, I have a cousin who is ten , had her menses and she was like a WOMEN as much as this word can hold. AND , I live in a moderate atmosphere, imagine we're in a desert.

In cold countries, the signs of menses can be late to sometimes 15 years, like my sister when we lived in France , she had her menses at 15 years. She didnt have a body of a real women before her menses.

Why am I talking about menses? Because it is the beginning of women's body transformation.

Now, can you open your eyes a bit based on fairness and understand what Im saying?

Thank you

so if a little girl started her menstruation at 8 she is ready for sex?
what about mentally and emotionally? do you think little girls become women when they start their menstruation/period? all of a sudden their minds and their understanding are mature enough to understand what having a sexual relationship with an adult male is about?

this is such disgustingly vile deplorable and loathsome idea it makes me feel physically ill thinking how this is viewed as normal, justifying dirty old men's gross manifestation of selfishness and disregard for another young human being. I AM DISGUSTED.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Quote:Starsoul

But when there are historical facts under discussion when women of a certain area hit puberty much earlier than in other parts of the world and used to marry respectfully instead of exhibiting vain vile sexuality to every other guy on the streets, its hardly a wonder what definitions of morals are being adhered to.[/quote]

Does an arranged Marriage of a Child make paedophillia moral ?
 

Starsoul

Truth
so if a little girl started her menstruation at 8 she is ready for sex?
what about mentally and emotionally? do you think little girls become women when they start their menstruation/period? all of a sudden their minds and their understanding are mature enough to understand what having a sexual relationship with an adult male is about?

this is such disgustingly vile deplorable and loathsome idea it makes me feel physically ill thinking how this is viewed as normal, justifying dirty old men's gross manifestation of selfishness and disregard for another young human being. I AM DISGUSTED.

Dude, its in your society that boys and girls of that age engage in sexual activities. Nobody of this age marries, or goes out and about over their sex drive in a muslim society. They marry as mature as one should. Stop wrapping your head in a walnut and it would be better if you read my post 66. The wife of the Prophet was not 9 she was around 19! Get over it.
 

Starsoul

Truth
Does an arranged Marriage of a Child make paedophillia moral ?

Refer to post # 66 for the detailed reply. The age at which she got married was 19. Infidels and non-believers of only today take the actual hadith out of context AS usual, quick to jump to self made assumptions instead of reading fully into Islamic history.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Refer to post # 66 for the detailed reply. The age at which she got married was 19. Infidels and non-believers of only today take the actual hadith out of context AS usual, quick to jump to self made assumptions instead of reading fully into Islamic history.

Even if we Infidels and non-believers did take it out of context its of little consequence,what is of consequence is the Child Brides that are sold off to some dirty old Man for dowry because they have obviously taken that hadith out of context (which i do not believe),because they believe if its good enough for Muhammed its good enough for me,of course you could opt for "its a cultural thing" excuse except until recently ChildMarriage was the in thing in the birthplace of Islam.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Dude, its in your society that boys and girls of that age engage in sexual activities. Nobody of this age marries, or goes out and about over their sex drive in a muslim society. They marry as mature as one should. Stop wrapping your head in a walnut and it would be better if you read my post 66. The wife of the Prophet was not 9 she was around 19! Get over it.

listen cupcake
i was responding to this...


I explained how it wasnt little girls as you're seeing it, but it seems you either cant stand the idea that it may not be as horrible as you think , or just dont want to listen.

As I said earlier, I have a cousin who is ten , had her menses and she was like a WOMEN as much as this word can hold. AND , I live in a moderate atmosphere, imagine we're in a desert.

In cold countries, the signs of menses can be late to sometimes 15 years, like my sister when we lived in France , she had her menses at 15 years. She didnt have a body of a real women before her menses.

Why am I talking about menses? Because it is the beginning of women's body transformation.

Now, can you open your eyes a bit based on fairness and understand what Im saying?

Thank you
 

Starsoul

Truth
Even if we Infidels and non-believers did take it out of context its of little consequence,what is of consequence is the Child Brides that are sold off to some dirty old Man for dowry because they have obviously taken that hadith out of context (which i do not believe),because they believe if its good enough for Muhammed its good enough for me,of course you could opt for "its a cultural thing" excuse except until recently ChildMarriage was the in thing in the birthplace of Islam.

huhh really? when and where? It is NOT a cultural thing for muslims, be very clear on that. If some psycho sick individual living far in a distant suburb practices pedophilia in US or UK, the whole country's religion or their law do not go to trial, it is the sick man! ( who by the way gets punished for it like 15-20 yrs depending on severity of offense and is entitled to claim 'Mentally ILL' so that he can easily go scot free again, to do the same thing again but with better ways to cover up his tracks, what condemnation of pedophilia! rather seems like facilitation).

In Islam, such practice is punishable by death, ask only those kids who go through it, and feel that EVEN the death of the pedophile is not enough to curb their pain.

Marriage in Islam is allowed and RECOMMENDED after acquiring Maturity ,and after acquiring Puberty. Nobody married under any compulsion from any side, in any of the Prophet's spouses.

Whenever a child has been reportedly forced into marriage, there have been untoward results of eloping, running away to parents or anyone else for seeking shelter. And all govts. and Islam is strict in dealing with such cases.

It has been done to death on this forum, trying to paint the whole religion or a belief into a color which it is neither related to, nor a supporter of.


Pedophiles run this country? And the world?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
huhh really? when and where? It is NOT a cultural thing for muslims, be very clear on that. If some psycho sick individual living far in a distant suburb practices pedophilia in US or UK, the whole country's religion or their law do not go to trial, it is the sick man! ( who by the way gets punished for it like 15-20 yrs depending on severity of offense and is entitled to claim 'Mentally ILL' so that he can easily go scot free again, to do the same thing again but with better ways to cover up his tracks, what condemnation of pedophilia! rather seems like facilitation).

Good i'm glad you don't see it as a cultural thing because it isn't

In Islam, such practice is punishable by death, ask only those kids who go through it, and feel that EVEN the death of the pedophile is not enough to curb their pain.

Baloney,Saudi rights commission seeks divorce for child bride | Reuters and its not even the tip of the iceberg

Marriage in Islam is allowed and RECOMMENDED after acquiring Maturity ,and after acquiring Puberty. Nobody married under any compulsion from any side, in any of the Prophet's spouses.

Double Baloney

Whenever a child has been reportedly forced into marriage, there have been untoward results of eloping, running away to parents or anyone else for seeking shelter. And all govts. and Islam is strict in dealing with such cases.

It has been done to death on this forum, trying to paint the whole religion or a belief into a color which it is neither related to, nor a supporter of.


Pedophiles run this country? And the world?

There are Countries and cultures where Child Marriage is practiced but none have the precedent set by a Prophet Marrying a Child and consumating it when she was 9 years old,after all it is written in sahih ahadith
 

Starsoul

Truth
i know this is off topic but
where did the 70 virgins in 70 mansions in paradise come from?

and what do the women get in paradise?

Some people don't know the answer to this one, because they don't really understand Arabic language, and translate it the other way.

It has been said several times in the Quran, that in heaven , those who believed, will enter paradise where there will be 'Zojain' for them. Zojain means spouses, not females. And spouses means, women and men BOTH will have full choice of spouses . There has been no specification of sexes assigned to the women or men for anyone to think that 'only' Men will get women and women might not.

God is fair and just, and Any person acknowledging with the idea of fair and Just God must know that God's fairness and kindness is beyond human perception, and beyond the best of our expectations. Paradise is a place where God has promised to give his people what ever they wish for,& what ever they ask for.' In heaven, God shall serve humanity, they will be His guests, and what a host to be served by, SubhAnAllah :)
 

Starsoul

Truth
There are Countries and cultures where Child Marriage is practiced but none have the precedent set by a Prophet Marrying a Child and consumating it when she was 9 years old,after all it is written in sahih ahadith

Yeah go ahead mis-inform and mis-interpret anything you come across, She was 19 and thats a fact which is clearly rubbing against your intellect because its not going to sit well with the anti-islamic sentiment that is dearer than facts. Not my problem.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Some people don't know the answer to this one, because they don't really understand Arabic language, and translate it the other way.

It has been said several times in the Quran, that in heaven , those who believed, will enter paradise where there will be 'Zojain' for them. Zojain means spouses, not females. And spouses means, women and men BOTH will have full choice of spouses . There has been no specification of sexes assigned to the women or men for anyone to think that 'only' Men will get women and women might not.

God is fair and just, and Any person acknowledging with the idea of fair and Just God must know that God's fairness and kindness is beyond human perception, and beyond the best of our expectations. Paradise is a place where God has promised to give his people what ever they wish for,& what ever they ask for.' In heaven, God shall serve humanity, they will be His guests, and what a host to be served by, SubhAnAllah :)

god is fair and just...hogwash
that is an over used cop out that really doesn't say anything at all
are you opposed to slavery and to human trafficking?
are you opposed to human rights?
do you disagree that every single human being is born with inalienable rights?
are those rights something that is subjected to mans ignorance and biases?
do you need someone to explain to you that killing, stealing, lying, cheating are wrong?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Yeah go ahead mis-inform and mis-interpret anything you come across, She was 19 and thats a fact which is clearly rubbing against your intellect because its not going to sit well with the anti-islamic sentiment that is dearer than facts. Not my problem.

Interesting,are you saying the ahadith are wrong,even though they are considered authentic and anyone who believes them are anti Islamic?.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Dude, its in your society that boys and girls of that age engage in sexual activities. Nobody of this age marries, or goes out and about over their sex drive in a muslim society. They marry as mature as one should. Stop wrapping your head in a walnut and it would be better if you read my post 66. The wife of the Prophet was not 9 she was around 19! Get over it.
What makes you think children in his society have sex :sarcastic?
 
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