The Qur'aan Cosmological Model: A delineation of the Origin, Evolution and End of the Universe

[FearGod]

There is a very glaring problem. The Bible's cosmological model is that there was a time that T=0 before everything began. This was prior to Genesis 1: in Which time, matter, and space began. Even secular scientist consider this as likely and almost mandatory. All three are interdependant. If you leave out time then when is space and matter created. If no space then where was matter put. If no matter then what defines space. In other words you can not have one without the other two. For time to again = 0 then space and matter can no longer exist either. Time is the duration that matter takes to do anything. If you have matter you have time. My clarification was to find out if Islam believes that we exist in this future place where no matter, space, or time exists. The Bible does not have this problem it records that matter, time, and space are eternal. They have a beginning but no end. That lines up with reason, and this oscillating universe does not. If you did not see this problem I do not know if you can address it meaningfully but since I can't get him to then have at it. Actually the oscillating universe model was invented by scientists because the universe we have that isn't oscillating but is fine tuned and had a beginning suggest God so clearly that to avoid that implication they invented oscillation along with the multi verse theory. Both of which will always be without proof even if they do exist. The oscillating model also makes no theological sence and suggests that at no point T = 0. When was what oscillated oscillating? There is a duration (time) for every action matter is involved with.

No,i don't agree with you.

Time will start once matter is created while space is always exist.
You are created first,then time is next.so once you came as matter in our space then next we will use time,and time will mean nothing without a starting point and ending point.

Let me give you an example to understand it better by practice.

When you came to life as a matter (space and time was always present before you was born)
Now as a new matter (you in this example) we will have a starting point of time which will start from 0 to day 1 till time end (in avarage 75 years),so even that you are still a matter and occupying space but your time have stopped at 75 years.,but still space and matter do exist,then again a new born baby will start with time = day 1 until death and so on.

So as you can see that while there was always space , matter and time,then we have new creation from T=0.

God do always exist as well as his space,and time is independent which is only for the new comings such as our universe which is also independent from god existance and his space.

 

[al-amiyr]

Two articles up for debate I wrote for a local newspaper in 1991.I have expanded considerably upon them since that time.

Article One

The Qur’aan Cosmological Model is based upon two verses of The Qur’aan. The Qur’aan is composed of about 6300 verses. These two Qur’aanic verses contain within themselves the plan or cosmological structure and design of the entire universe from before T = 0 (Time was equal to zero) until again when T = 0 (Time will again be Zero) and after.
The two Qur’aanic cosmological verses state as follows;
Qur’aan Chapter 021:030
-that the entire universe i.e. the sun, moon, stars and all other extra-terrestrial phenomena as well as the earth became ‘a singular mass’ in higher dimensional time reversed.
-that ‘the singular mass’ underwent a splitting apart as observed at present time.
Qur’aan Chapter 021:104
-that the universe would continue in its splitting apart phase until it had reached a maximum splitting apart or maximum expansion.
-that the universe would one day again contract and become ‘a singular mass’.
-that ‘the singular mass’ would again undergo a splitting apart to form another universe.
The implications of the analyses of the data derived from the above two Qur’aanic cosmological verses are earthshaking.
Firstly, it took thousands of years, thousands of the most intelligent men and women who ever lived, studying many branches of knowledge to reach the same conclusion as chapter 021:030 of The Qur’aan, the first mentioned cosmological verse that states that the universe was ‘a singular mass’ which then split apart.
Secondly, this was contained in Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity which he published in 1916, soon afterwards explained by Alexander Friedman in 1922 and later verified by Edwin Hubble in 1929, when he was commissioned to search the depth of the universe through the most advanced scientific instrument at the time, the newly built one hundred inch diameter Mount Wilson Telescope.
Humanity’s knowledge about the universe was drastically changed at Hubble’s discovery and set her thinking on a completely different path. The world thought and to this date still thinks that it was a new discovery, but within the Qur’aan the statement laid dormant for thirteen hundred years. Up to that date not even the greatest Muslim scholars of The Qur’aan fathomed its meaning. Even to this date [1991, the Era of The space Telescope] very few are aware of it.
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News Newspaper June 1991
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Article Two​

Profoundly more thought provoking of the two Qur’aanic verses is the fathoming of verse 021:104.The analysis of this verse indicates that the universe in its vertical evolution, since the time of its primordial distention has not yet reached maximum expansion. It is also further adduced via inference and allusion that the universe in its horizontal evolution has not yet reached maximum expansion limitation.
It also categorically asserts that the universe would eventually start a phase of contraction. Thus having reached the singular mass stage again would it split apart as expressed in verse 021:030.
The above data derived from the Qur’aan are not only astounding but as has been said before also earthshaking. The analyses of the data answer many questions that have puzzled and are still puzzling the minds of the greatest scientists of the twentieth century.
For example, cosmologists would like to know what the deceleration parameter of the universe is. From the highest present level of knowledge is it;
q < ½
q = ½
q > ½
(q = deceleration parameter)
According to the models of Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking and other cosmologists it is q = ½. According to Fred Hoyle and others who support the static universe concept it is q = -1.Yet others have described a universe that makes q = 0. According to another group it is q > ½. The Qur’aan Cosmological Model delineates it q > ½.
The preponderance of the evidence at present indicates that the universe is open (q < ½).The Hubble Space Telescope and other advanced scientific instruments being built will through much light upon these matters. We would probably in the next ten years know what the deceleration parameter of the universe is. Until then, we must all await the outcome of the evidence. As far as self-assertion is concerned, the Qur’aan is the only scientific document that categorically asserts the correctness of its delineation i.e. that the deceleration parameter of the universe is q > ½ .Others have not bound themselves in this way as yet in whichever way.
To back up its statement the Qur’aan challenges the five billion three hundred and fifty million people on earth to investigate more than one hundred branches of knowledge. After having done so, the Qur’aan continues, “then humanity will reach the same conclusion”. It then wants to know from humanity why they will not accept its being the Truth- that it is knowledge of ALLAAH (God), the Evolver of existence, that was revealed via the brain of an illiterate man whose lecturing and teaching thereof then revolutionized and overturned the religious, political, economical, sociological and military systems of the world within a few years about one thousand four hundred years ago.

News Newspaper July 1991

Continued in post #4
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Post #1 original article

 

[1robin]

Post #1 original article

Time can't be reversed. It has one direction alone, if that is what you highlighted is saying. Thermodynamics is called time's arrow. It makes the reversal of time impossible. Regardless none of this addressed my question. I assume you posted it to me. I wanted to know when this FUTURE time = 0 condition will exist.

 

[1robin]

No,i don't agree with you.

Time will start once matter is created while space is always exist.
You are created first,then time is next.so once you came as matter in our space then next we will use time,and time will mean nothing without a starting point and ending point.

I can tell you are not familiar with these issues. That is not an insult. I spent many hours in college and countless in independant sudies on these issues. I still only understand the governing principles and not the details of how they all work. It is a very complex issue. Space did not exist independant of time and matter. I know that is not intuitive, it takes mathematics and philosophy. Matter is what defines space. According to Big Bang and Biblical cosmology space, time, and matter came into existance in the finite past. They are dependant on one another. Even virtually all secular big bang guys admit this. It is only the few oscillating, or multi verse guys that usually differ.

Let me give you an example to understand it better by practice.

When you came to life as a matter (space and time was always present before you was born)

That was not the case. If time always existed then how did we cross an infinate number of past seconds to get to now? How did we cross an infinate number of past events to get to this one? You can't and so they are not infinate. It is counter intuitive but very simple and absolute.

Now as a new matter (you in this example) we will have a starting point of time which will start from 0 to day 1 till time end (in avarage 75 years),so even that you are still a matter and occupying space but your time have stopped at 75 years.,but still space and matter do exist,then again a new born baby will start with time = day 1 until death and so on.

I am not new matter I am a new arrangement of matter that already existed and was created a finite time ago. Awarness has no relation to realities existance. Natural law existed prior to my knowledge of it. It dictates that matter time and space are not infinate.

So as you can see that while there was always space , matter and time,then we have new creation from T=0.

How can T = 0 when it has always been running. That may be the theological claim but that is physically impossible. If time already existed but Islam says T=0 only when matter was created besides being impossible is arbitrary and has no real value.

God do always exist as well as his space,and time is independent which is only for the new comings such as our universe which is also independent from god existance and his space.

Please take the time to research cause and effect. Every cause must precede the effect. God could not cause matter to exist if it existed as long as he has. Time is dependant. I think you may be out of your field not that I am a master or even close at this stuff but I have a math and physics degree. Nothing is independant from God. The Bible makes this clear in that everything was made by, through and for Jesus and nothing that was made was made by any other name. Even Jesus preceded matter. He created it. Genesis one says that in the beginning (the beginning of time T=0), God created the heavens (space), and the Earth (matter). If we would have just believed the Bible it would not have taken 4000 thousands years for science to catch up. While I am no expert I do understand these issues very well, and the only possible exception lies in Quantum mechanics and that is so bizarre and little understood that nothing is actually known concerning it's role in these issues. As it stands what I said is the state of our understanding and there does not seem to be even a possible or theoretical exception besides the evidenceless oscillation and multiverse fantasies.

 

[FearGod]

I can tell you are not familiar with these issues. That is not an insult. I spent many hours in college and countless in independant sudies on these issues. I still only understand the governing principles and not the details of how they all work. It is a very complex issue. Space did not exist independant of time and matter. I know that is not intuitive, it takes mathematics and philosophy. Matter is what defines space. According to Big Bang and Biblical cosmology space, time, and matter came into existance in the finite past. They are dependant on one another. Even virtually all secular big bang guys admit this. It is only the few oscillating, or multi verse guys that usually differ.

i know i'll have a hard time to discuss an issue with a person who believe that 1+1+1 =1 according to your biblical studies which is 3 separated persons in different and separated time and space but consisting one god and i know i aint able to argue that with you because your reasoning that god can do anything,he can reverse the time if he wish,he can be in a difinite time and in an indifinite time at the same time :banghead3...etc,always for god you have your irrational explanation for jesus as human in a difinite time and space and the father and holy spirit as out of space and time.

That was not the case. If time always existed then how did we cross an infinate number of past seconds to get to now? How did we cross an infinate number of past events to get to this one? You can't and so they are not infinate. It is counter intuitive but very simple and absolute.

i said time started with the born of matter, god is out of our space and time,space and god do always exist,but matter is created and born and have a starting point of time which is the first time it was created lets say X and its end time lets say Y.

I am not new matter I am a new arrangement of matter that already existed and was created a finite time ago. Awarness has no relation to realities existance. Natural law existed prior to my knowledge of it. It dictates that matter time and space are not infinate.

The best reply i can offer here is

How can T = 0 when it has always been running. That may be the theological claim but that is physically impossible. If time already existed but Islam says T=0 only when matter was created besides being impossible is arbitrary and has no real value.

No not impossible,but you are only facing difficulties in understanding it,but what surprising me that you can understand 1+1+1 = 1

Please take the time to research cause and effect. Every cause must precede the effect. God could not cause matter to exist if it existed as long as he has. Time is dependant. I think you may be out of your field not that I am a master or even close at this stuff but I have a math and physics degree. Nothing is independant from God.

You mixed up philosophy of cause and effect with math plus physics degree as science and god as theology,that is an amazing combination of all which is irrelevant to our main topic.

let us see what will be your answer for an effect and what was its exact cause.
The effect : you came to this world
The cause :
is it your mother
is it your father and mother( both )
is it god

if your answer was your mother,then explain why,what about your father.
if your answer was both,then explain why,what about god.
if your answer was god,then explain why,what about your mother and father.

Then if your answer that many causes will make one effect which is you,then that is another philosophy of (causes and a one effect)

The Bible makes this clear in that everything was made by, through and for Jesus and nothing that was made was made by any other name. Even Jesus preceded matter. He created it. Genesis one says that in the beginning (the beginning of time T=0), God created the heavens (space), and the Earth (matter).

Thats wrong according to science evidences which say that the universe which as we know now was one single entity (take a look to the big bang),but to say the heaven was first then next day the earth ,then the sun ,then the moon...etc is a very big mistake which i can't understand how you believe it while we are in the 21th century.

If we would have just believed the Bible it would not have taken 4000 thousands years for science to catch up. While I am no expert I do understand these issues very well, and the only possible exception lies in Quantum mechanics and that is so bizarre and little understood that nothing is actually known concerning it's role in these issues. As it stands what I said is the state of our understanding and there does not seem to be even a possible or theoretical exception besides the evidenceless oscillation and multiverse fantasies.

This is my last reply to you concerning this topic and i aint interesting to go in for an endless circle of useless arguement,you can have your final reply if you wish or to neglect it.

i am interesting to follow his explanation till the end,of course its up to you if you would like to withdraw from his thread or to keep in refuting every and each single piece of information.

 

[al-amiyr]

[FONT=&quot]Continued from post # 135.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Graphical illustrations of the Qur'aan Cosmological technical term samaa’ (singular of samaawaat) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as defined by the Qur'aan[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ' as explained in the great Arabic - English dictionary compiled by Edward William Lane over 53 years prior to the discovery of the expansion of the universe by Edwin Hubble in 1929.

I am so happy to have understood this part! maybe there is hope for me yet......

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Ok, that verse does respond to my objection about the expansion appearing in the Quran. I'll await your exposé

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I am very interested in seeing what he has to offer.
I prefer to not see him get bogged down dealing with things that likely will become clear simply by allowing him to continue.

ist that hard to understand,he make it already clear that we have to wait till his next posts to understand well his point.

you want things to be clear from the first lesson,it is like wanting to understand how to make a heart operation without knowing basics of medicine.

Please be patient till the next posts and when he finish,we can debate and ask questions.

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I worked on the graphical illustrations of the Qur'aan Cosmological Model technical terms for the past day to present to you but I got bogged down with so much detail.
Out of about twenty illustrations done I have chosen three that I think should be sufficient towards explaining our task. I attach them below. Hopefully by tonight still or tomorrow I will upload the graphical illustrations for the Qur'aan Cosmological Model technical term'arD which I have already amply explained in a previous post (post # 135). All these details are important to prove that the Qur'aan possesses a complete explanation for the existence of the world. I am going to show as I have already said before how the Qur'aan is the only scientific document that contains such details which is available for all the world to see. All modern cosmological theories devised before the true facts became known appear like little scribblings of innocent children taken out of mythological folk tales. As I said before that these myths masqueraded as knowledge became the divineless bibles of whole hearted atheists. I am not talking about real scientific discoveries that have been made by great men throughout history.(this includes great men like Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, and Einstein and many others.)

Below is a graphical illustration for the Qur'aan Cosmological Model Technical Term samaa' (singular of samaawaat).

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[1robin]

i know i'll have a hard time to discuss an issue with a person who believe that 1+1+1 =1

First I never said that I was a trinitarian. Second 1 state (solid) + 1 state (liquid) + 1 state (gas) = 1 thing (matter). These math games of inventing questions that for some reason you then require Jesus to have said word for word are not valid tests for anything. This appeal to semantics and arbitrary cherry picking of irrelevant mathematics have no value.

according to your biblical studies which is 3 separated persons in different and separated time and space but consisting one god and i know i aint able to argue that with you because your reasoning that god can do anything,he can reverse the time if he wish,he can be in a difinite time and in an indifinite time at the same time :banghead3...etc,always for god you have your irrational explanation for jesus as human in a difinite time and space and the father and holy spirit as out of space and time.

What was this? God, Jesus, and the Spirit are independant of time. That is scientifically necessary for the first cause whatever it is. If it wasn't then how did he exist when time did not. I think you are trying to divert the conversation with appeals to the obsurd but what you are appealing to is innacurate and not clearly stated.

i said time started with the born of matter, god is out of our space and time,space and god do always exist,but matter is created and born and have a starting point of time which is the first time it was created lets say X and its end time lets say Y.

I do not think that is what you said but fine since this is correct I don't want to disturb it.

The best reply i can offer here is

I am well aware of the limitations you have on this issue.

No not impossible,but you are only facing difficulties in understanding it,but what surprising me that you can understand 1+1+1 = 1

Islam has some strange obsession with inventing bogus tests, innacurate to start with, and insisting without any justification that other faiths must meet them. This is trivial nonesence.

You mixed up philosophy of cause and effect with math plus physics degree as science and god as theology,that is an amazing combination of all which is irrelevant to our main topic.

let us see what will be your answer for an effect and what was its exact cause.
The effect : you came to this world
The cause :
is it your mother
is it your father and mother( both )
is it god

if your answer was your mother,then explain why,what about your father.
if your answer was both,then explain why,what about god.
if your answer was god,then explain why,what about your mother and father.

God is the ultimate cause for everything. Neither my father nor mother created anything. They utilized a method that preceeded them that was began by God. This is truly trivial and simplistic argumentation. God created genetics, the universe, and our physiology. They didn't know how to create a soul, conciousness, or even a body. They found a mechanism in place and just activated it.

Then if your answer that many causes will make one effect which is you,then that is another philosophy of (causes and a one effect)

I have no idea what you are talking about or why it is relevant. God is the necessary uncaused first cause.

Thats wrong according to science evidences which say that the universe which as we know now was one single entity (take a look to the big bang),but to say the heaven was first then next day the earth ,then the sun ,then the moon...etc is a very big mistake which i can't understand how you believe it while we are in the 21th century.

First of all, no Big Bang has been proven. Even Hoyle who invented the term says it has problems. We know so little about what happened then, that even a shaky theory is grabbed on to. It is just the best they have. I did not say anything about the Sun or moon, and I did not suggest any timing involving earth. However if there is no space where you going to put it. Islam cosmology suggests that the universe is oscillating, reality and Christian cosmology suggests it began a finite time ago and willl not recollaps again. I was suprised to see any correct cosmology in Islam but I admit it gets it partially right.

This is my last reply to you concerning this topic and i aint interesting to go in for an endless circle of useless arguement,you can have your final reply if you wish or to neglect it.

i am interesting to follow his explanation till the end,of course its up to you if you would like to withdraw from his thread or to keep in refuting every and each single piece of information.

Of course you are. I on the other hand value truth more than my pet theology. I let facts dictate what I believe, I do not let what I believe determine what is factuall. If something like this cosmological argument has major flaws in it's foundation I have little interest in what it builds on it. I believe now that I have asked several times for simple answers to simple issues in the premise, none being provided there is no reason to continue. This is just more rhetoric in hind sight, built on flowery language designed to hide massive flaws in it's foundation. You can swallow as much of this as you want, I don't have the time.

 

[al-amiyr]

Continued from post# 146

[FONT=&quot]Graphical illustrations of the Qur'aan Cosmological Model technical term 'arD [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as defined by the Qur'aan[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and as explained in the great Arabic - English dictionary compiled by Edward William Lane over 53 years prior to the discovery of the expansion of the universe by Edwin Hubble in 1929.[/FONT]
Now that we have reached this stage in defining the second important Qur'aan Cosmological Model technical term we can proceed with the understanding of our first Qur'aan Cosmological Model verse which is:-

First QCM Verse 021:030

Have those who have disbelieved now not seen:-​

that the samaawaat and the &#8216;arD​

(1)- were both Ratqan​

(2)- and so We Fataq them both again.​

And We made from water every living thing.​

Will they now not believe?

In the next post we shall analyze the above [FONT=&quot]Qur'aan Cosmological Model verse in terms of the [FONT=&quot]Qur'aan Cosmological Model technical terms that were presented in both explanatory and illustrated formats as defined in the Qur'aan and [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]as explained in the great Arabic - English dictionary compiled by Edward William Lane over 53 years prior to the discovery of the expansion of the universe by Edwin Hubble in 1929.

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[FONT=&quot]Below is a graphical illustration for the Qur'aan Cosmological Model Technical Term 'arD[/FONT]
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[FearGod]

First I never said that I was a trinitarian. Second 1 state (solid) + 1 state (liquid) + 1 state (gas) = 1 thing (matter). These math games of inventing questions that for some reason you then require Jesus to have said word for word are not valid tests for anything. This appeal to semantics and arbitrary cherry picking of irrelevant mathematics have no value.

Sorry that i had to reply to refute this silly idea about water in its 3 states as in your attempt to compare it to god in his 3 separated persons which even a mind of child in the elementary school won't accept it to be rational and logic.

One important thing that you miss that you can't have one water molecule to be in 3 states at the same time,if water turns to gas,then it is no more solid or liquid
and that isn't the state of god being 3 different separated things but do exist at the same time and consist one entity which is god ,and again:banghead3

 

[1robin]

Sorry that i had to reply to refute this silly idea about water in its 3 states as in your attempt to compare it to god in his 3 separated persons which even a mind of child in the elementary school won't accept it to be rational and logic.

One important thing that you miss that you can't have one water molecule to be in 3 states at the same time,if water turns to gas,then it is no more solid or liquid
and that isn't the state of god being 3 different separated things but do exist at the same time and consist one entity which is god ,and again

So the sillyness must continue. First a supernatural being is not subject to natural law and so your analysis was irrelevant any way. Water molecules have the same nature and essence. I do not care what you say about a single molecule. That is actually the point. Water (God) can exist in gas (spirit), liquid (Christ), or solid (the father). If you say that the same molecule can't simultaneously be all three, so what. I am not saying the Father is all three at the same time. One molecule (individual with the same essence as the others) can exist as water. Another molecule (individual with the same essence) can exist as gas. Another molecule (with the same essence) can exist as a solid. All three are H20 (all three are God). They are all three matter, and all three water. Different roles same essence. Christ, Spirit, and father are all three the same nature but all three meet every characteristic of an indicvidual. This isn't what this thread is about. Is based on hair splitting and incorrect analogies and does nothing even if correct help the comological claims that this thread concerns. I will not debate the Trinity any further. If you have anythingto clarify the faulty cosmological claims then I will address it.

 

[England my lionheart]

Just ask if you need more info. Watch this thread! Its coming!

Well i think you supplied an abundance of info,for me though it seems a mighty stretch to equate whats in the Qur'an with real science or a cosmological model JMO.

 

[FearGod]

So the sillyness must continue. First a supernatural being is not subject to natural law and so your analysis was irrelevant any way. Water molecules have the same nature and essence. I do not care what you say about a single molecule. That is actually the point. Water (God) can exist in gas (spirit), liquid (Christ), or solid (the father). If you say that the same molecule can't simultaneously be all three, so what. I am not saying the Father is all three at the same time. One molecule (individual with the same essence as the others) can exist as water. Another molecule (individual with the same essence) can exist as gas. Another molecule (with the same essence) can exist as a solid. All three are H20 (all three are God). They are all three matter, and all three water. Different roles same essence. Christ, Spirit, and father are all three the same nature but all three meet every characteristic of an indicvidual. This isn't what this thread is about. Is based on hair splitting and incorrect analogies and does nothing even if correct help the comological claims that this thread concerns. I will not debate the Trinity any further. If you have anythingto clarify the faulty cosmological claims then I will address it.

i knew already that you'll still defend that 3 person consist one is rational,thats the reason that i said it'll be useless arguement.

So may i try to make it easier for you in terms of chemistry

H2O + H2O + H2O = 3 H2O , one molecule + one molecule + one molecule = three molecules and not one,so please don't use science for explaining your god.

 

[al-amiyr]

Well i think you supplied an abundance of info,for me though it seems a mighty stretch to equate whats in the Qur'an with real science or a cosmological model JMO.

Nothing has been supplied yet. I am first presenting the definitions of the technical terms of the two Qur'aan Cosmological verses. If these are not properly defined then there will be no understanding as to what the Qur'aan is saying. It is like filling mathematical equations with the wrong info. You will get wrong results.

I would like to ask you one question and it is this, "are you saying that it is not written in the Qur'aan that the universe was a single entity at some point back in time and then underwent expansion?
I would like to hear your comment on this. I think at this point a meaningful discussion can begin between the atheists and the 'unatheists.' Do not let mighty stretches prevent you from seeing. There are now great telescopes.

 

[1robin]

i knew already that you'll still defend that 3 person consist one is rational,thats the reason that i said it'll be useless arguement.

So may i try to make it easier for you in terms of chemistry

H2O + H2O + H2O = 3 H2O , one molecule + one molecule + one molecule = three molecules and not one,so please don't use science for explaining your god.

This is just getting worse and worse. You are actually making my arguments for me. Yes three molecules of the same specific nature that can combine to make a single ice cube, a single drop, or a single cloud. This is another silly argument that you are using and I guess for lack of anything better you must cling to it regardless of how impotent it is to address the issue. Your and the other guys cosmology is wrong and this arguemnt and most others Islam uses to challenge Christ's nature are rediculous and obsurd. If all I had was the 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, or the "Did Jesus say in these words and this order" arguments I would not type anything. This issue deserves more serious scholarship than this.

 

[England my lionheart]

Nothing has been supplied yet. I am first presenting the definitions of the technical terms of the two Qur'aan Cosmological verses. If these are not properly defined then there will be no understanding as to what the Qur'aan is saying. It is like filling mathematical equations with the wrong info. You will get wrong results.

I would like to ask you one question and it is this, "are you saying that it is not written in the Qur'aan that the universe was a single entity at some point back in time and then underwent expansion?
I would like to hear your comment on this. I think at this point a meaningful discussion can begin between the atheists and the 'unatheists.' Do not let mighty stretches prevent you from seeing. There are now great telescopes.

Looking at this part:

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?.

Yes it says a joined entity,looking at the whole Surah and the context of the above i cannot see a cosmological model,all i see is words from a book of faith which was authored a long time ago,i just don't get the supposed science in either the Qur'an or Bible.

 

[al-amiyr]

Looking at this part:

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?.

Yes it says a joined entity,looking at the whole Surah and the context of the above i cannot see a cosmological model,all i see is words from a book of faith which was authored a long time ago,i just don't get the supposed science in either the Qur'an or Bible.

You may be correct or you may be incorrect. Therefore we must investigate. You must remember that this model that I am about to present here is being made known publicly for the first time. You have a perfect chance to investigate it now.

Firstly the Qur'aan translation by Sahih International from which you have quoted is not exactly correct.There are at least five errors in it that obfuscates exactly what the Qur'aan is saying. All the other translations ever done (over fifty of them which I have already examined) are equally inaccurate. This is the reason why I have been taking my time here to present those technical terms in this thread.
Here is the best correct translation which I have already explained in previous posts in detail.

Have those who have disbelieved now not seen:-
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that the samaawaat and the ‘arD
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(1)- were both Ratqan
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(2)- and so We Fataq them both again.
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And We made from water every living thing.
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Will they now not believe?

Let us take out the Cosmological part of the verse that is the subject of our discussion for analysis to see if we can derive a model from it or not.

that the samaawaat and the ‘arD
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(1)- were both Ratqan
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(2)- and so We Fataq them both again.

As you can see,there are four words that I have not translated because there are no English equivalents that accurately convey their meanings. (Question to be considered, "Do you think that if the terminology of the Qur'aan is inaccurately conveyed that that would do justice to what the Qur'aan is saying?)

The four words are (1)- samaawaat (2)- 'arD (3)- Ratqan and (4)- Fataq.

Now the Qur'aan at this point in no uncertain terms says that the samaawaat and the 'arD were Ratqan and that ALLAAH did Fataq them again.

Now samaawaat and 'arD as I have already clearly presented in previous posts simply means The Universe (Space and Matter). Here are the meaning and definitions of Ratqan and Fataq as found in the great Arabic - English dictionary compiled by Edward William Lane over 53 years prior to the discovery of the expansion of the universe by Edwin Hubble in 1929.

What is the meaning of Ratqan?
[FONT=&quot]From the verb: Rataqa[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]he closed up.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- he sewed up, or together.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ratqan[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- closed up.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- sewn up.[/FONT]

And what is the meaning of Fataq?
[FONT=&quot]It is the verb: - [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Fataqa[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- he slit it, rent it, rent it asunder or open, or divided it lengthwise.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- he disjoined it, or disunited it[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- he undid the sewing of it, unsewed it, or unstitched it[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](- became swollen, or inflated, in the flanks.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- appeared after concealment.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As the noun: -Fatqan[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- a rent, slit, or the like.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]- an open, and a spacious, place.[/FONT]


There are also other QCM verses that throw light upon the matter. I give you as an example the following Qur'aanic translation of a verse done in 1980 by a Jewish scholar who have switched over to Islaam.

[FONT=&quot](9) - [/FONT]1980 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.[/FONT]​

Muhammad Asad pub. 1980​

Formerly Leopold Weiss​

Jewish Scholar turn Muslim

From the above information are you saying that it is impossible to create a model of the universe from the single stage to the present stage? Can you tell me why. Please do not consult your views?
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[England my lionheart]

My views of the Qur'an come from reading an English translation,of course i realise that by doing so i miss out on the beauty and full meaning of the Qur'an,i don't think i miss the context of the verse if i read the whole Sura,the Sura seems more argument and rebuttal as to the authenticity of both Muhammed and his message and nothing to do with cosmological models.

 

[al-amiyr]

My views of the Qur'an come from reading an English translation,of course i realise that by doing so i miss out on the beauty and full meaning of the Qur'an,i don't think i miss the context of the verse if i read the whole Sura,the Sura seems more argument and rebuttal as to the authenticity of both Muhammed and his message and nothing to do with cosmological models.

That is not correct because the Qur'aan says in a number of places that it contains all the models of knowledge and that everything has been explained in detail. The prophet said that 'the Qur'aan contains an inner as well as an outer meaning'.

Here I give you some quotations what non Muslim historians have written about the Qur'aan and the study of The Universe.
“The Moslems looked upon astronomy as the noblest, most exalted and the most beautiful (al-Battani) of sciences, if only because the study of the stars was an indispensable aid to religious observance. They helped to determine the month of Ramadan, the hours of prayer and the orientation of mosques towards Mecca. Moreover, the Koran enjoined the faithful to contemplate the glory of God in the construction of His universe.” (Page 409)

A General History of The Sciences​

Ancient and Medieval Science​

Part 111 Chapter 2​

“Islamic astronomy was not fettered by the restrictions that a rigid - and erroneous – interpretation of the Bible imposed upon Western astronomers. Conversely the Qur’an, the sacred book of Islam that was supposedly revealed to Muhammad by Allah, seemed to encourage a study of astronomy.”

Gerald E. Tauber​

Man’s view of the Universe (1979)​

“The Universe: In order to proof the unity of God, the Qur’aan lays frequent stress on the design and order in the universe.” (Page 913)

Encyclopaedia Britannica (1979)​

Vol.9 15th Edition​

“- the Koran enjoined them to study the sky and the earth to find proofs of their faith.” (Page 385)

A General History of The Sciences​

Ancient and Medieval Science​

Part 111 Chapter 2​

“Wonderful as is Allah’s material creation- and the Koran abounds in lyric descriptions of the majesties of heaven and earth.” (Page 233)

Huston Smith​

The Religions of Man (1958)

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How are you going to respond to the above.
The Qur'aan is simply fusing within itself simultaneously all the knowledge and in that particular suwrah as you said 'the Sura seems more argument and rebuttal as to the authenticity of both Muhammed and his message'. But that same message also contains cosmological information. Does it not? Why dismiss that information?

 

[al-amiyr]

Continued from post# 148

We have reached the point in this expatiation of The Qur'aan Cosmological Model that we can begin to penetrate into its depths. Up to this point I have attempted to make known that the Qur'aan does contain a comprehensive explanation for the existence of the universe. As I said in a previous post:-
The Qur’aan Cosmological model is a mathematical and graphical presentation of the origin, evolution, and ultimate fate of the universe as it is contained in just two verses of the Qur’aan. These two verses provide us with the key words that describe the general evolution of the universe.
Kh alqan = Tayyan +Ratqan +Fatqan +2Tayyan +2Ratqan +2Fatqan.
C reation = Turn in +Rotate + Fire out +2Turn in +2Rotate +2Fire out.
The initial letters of these key words produce the following algorithmic compression;

Kh = T +R +F +2T +2R +2F​

Arabic is a language based on what we call root letters. From these root letters the entire language is built up. They are all consonants which are formed into patterns of two’s three’s or four’s. The Arabic language has 28 consonants and a special letter we call laam ‘alif. There are also only three vowels and vowel signs in the language which can be either short or long and when used are written either above or below the consonants to produce the words and in this case the root letters which are all verbs in the third person past tense. Don’t worry about all the details at this stage because they will all be wonderfully and easily explained further on and then everything will be easily understood.
It will be seen that when we run the Qur’aanic cosmological algorithmic compression

Kh = T +R +F +2T +2R +2F​

through the fundamental structure of the Arabic language then we witness a magnificent display of verbs, nouns, and adjectives that go back to describe each and every phase of the universe at its exact time and place in great detail. We are presented without exaggeration hundreds of beautiful drawings of the phases the universe undergoes from its cosmological origin, through its cosmological evolution, and until its eventual cosmological fate. And upon that we also see the derivation of many simple and logical abbreviations that precisely describe each and every phase of the universe. And then further beyond that we realize and see how the actions of the universe drive life into the dead and empty of meaning fundamental building blocks of the language- which are all the fundamental verbal patterns from which are derived the words of the language.
That in a nutshell is the Qur’aan Cosmological Model.

If you study the above you would have prepared yourself well for the debate after this presentation is complete. If there are any questions ask them. I am already beginning to sense defeat from the side of the earlier combatants or are they just silently waiting for the great day of battle? Where are all those who raised their voices in the beginning. Why are they silent?

Have a good look at the illustrations on the chart below: Fig.001 Ratq-Fa-Fatq. Don't miss out at this point. I will from time to time refer to previous posts that I have prepared to make our journey easy as we arrive at the steps to enter The Greatest Cosmological Model of all time. Remember that this so far is still only the one percent. To be continued in posts to follow.

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[England my lionheart]

I will respond by saying that Humans were already sitting on a pile of knowledge gained from Humans unfettered by religious dogma or interpretations,in fact i think if we had always been unfettered by religion we would be a lot further in our understanding of everything instead of trying to climb the stairs with an Elephant strapped to your back.

&#8220;Islamic astronomy was not fettered by the restrictions that a rigid - and erroneous &#8211; interpretation of the Bible imposed upon Western astronomers. Conversely the Qur&#8217;an, the sacred book of Islam that was supposedly revealed to Muhammad by Allah, seemed to encourage a study of astronomy.&#8221;

There was no encouragement required,the hard work had already been done by the time of the Qur'an,when one considers what Islam inherited from Byzantium and the Greeks,Abu Nasr Muhammad Ibn Al-Farabi (great name BTW) was a great Muslim Scholar who was called "the second Teacher",second only to Aristotle,a cosmoligist logician and Musician,i heard his name at School many Moons ago,i doubt he got to his reputation from the few scant sentences you offer.