Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
This reply is what I would call defensive, and giving an excuse.
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The Return of Christ
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Sorry, I was too harsh in my reply.
I don't know that all Christians necessarily believe in that.
Me? I think they are deluding themselves - or maybe some are just paying the tribute for acceptance by the tribe.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I think I'm crabby tonight. I did a similar thing with Tony, also known as @TransmutingSoul.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was crabby all day yesterday since I did not get enough sleep.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Thanks for your understanding.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
In the Baha'is way of interpreting things, yes. But again, it's too much generalizing. In Hinduism? Or Buddhism? Or even in Judaism is there the same of things we find in Christianity? I think the two gospels writers that have the birth story of Jesus could have easily been invented to make Jesus the "child" that is born unto us. It also makes him virtually a God. He had no Earthly Father. But who believes that stuff other than literal-believing Christians?
Who makes Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses equal to Jesus? If we are going to believe the NT, Jesus is way better and much more special than any of them. But again, who's going to believe what the NT says? We all know it was written by the followers of Jesus years later. Christians might say that God or the Holy Spirit guided them and reminded them about the things Jesus said, but that's only because they want to make the NT the infallible and inerrant word of God... instead of the vague, maybe the things that Jesus said or maybe not, and most likely the things that were said about Jesus in the traditions that started to circulate about him.
Great story. Inspiring story. If true, the most important and powerful story ever written. But if it's not true, then what is it? Like I keep saying... religious myths and legends.
Baha'is are in a really tough situation of having to act as if it is the word of God and the same time say that it's not completely authentic. But what's really weird is for Baha'is to claim that some verses are true and reliable... the verses that can be made to point to the Bab and Baha'u'llah. If a verse suggests that Jesus rose from the dead? Well, we all know that can't be, so those verses must be symbolic.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Now that explains why some of the things Baha'is say to me sound a little off... I just caught them in a "crabby" moment.
But actually, it's good to see arguments between Baha'is get settled in a peaceful and loving way.
That makes it difficult to account for the dinosaurs.
After all, the God that Jesus is said to be the son of didn't exist until around 1500 BCE, and back then [he] was just another member of the Canaanite pantheon (and apparently had a wife, Asherah, but they later divorced, can't say I blame her).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Not me. Not even Abdu'l-Baha.
That is what Abdu'l-Baha said.
“Know that the attributes of perfection, the splendor of the divine bounties, and the lights of inspiration are visible and evident in all the Holy Manifestations; but the glorious Word of God, Christ, and the Greatest Name, Bahá’u’lláh, are manifestations and evidences which are beyond imagination, for They possess all the perfections of the former Manifestations; and more than that, They possess some perfections which make the other Manifestations dependent upon Them. So all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!”
And Baha'u'llah said that the Manifestations are all distinct. The missions of Jesus and Baha'u'llah were far more vital to humanity than the missions of any other Manifestations.
"The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56
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The evidence supports the idea that the universe is some 14 bn years old and our solar system, including our planet, is 4.5 billion years old. It's not clear how long humans have been around, but it seems to be above 200,000 years. The God of the bible is first found around 3,500 years ago (much younger than the Rainbow Serpent of Australian aboriginal lore, who can claim 5,000 years or more, they say).
So I'm not in a hurry to embrace your 1980 hypothesis.
Good point above about verse 6 Not being Jesus' name because they are titles. Even the words God and Lord are titles and Not names
Even Satan is referred to as 'god' at 2nd Corinthians 4:4 and we know 'god' is Not Satan's name.
At Luke 4:43 I consider the theme of Jesus' message being the 'good news' of God's government aka kingdom.- Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14
( good news to all rulers, priests, governments and peoples of the world if they listen to Jesus' teachings. If all would listen there would be No 'end of ages ' )
Jesus offered fine counsel for every day living under the title of Wonderful Counselor which leads to salvation - John 6:68
Jesus' counsel wisdom is shown in his Sermon on the Mount - Matthew 5:5-7:27
Isaiah speaks of the title Mighty God but Not as 'Almighty God' as applied to Almighty God at Genesis 17:1
Because Jesus is given the Resurrection Power he will become Everlasting Father (aka Life giver) to resurrected ones - Rev. 1:18
Yes, the princely rule is upon Jesus' shoulders - Isaiah 9:7- as Prince of Peace with no end - Micah 4:4; Psalm 72:7-8; 12-14
Yes, the ' seat of government ' is heavenly aka New Jerusalem located in Heaven but will govern over Earth - Rev. 21:2-3
Or, as Jesus promised that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11; 22;26
So, just as Jesus' said his kingdom aka government is Not part of this world or this world's governments - Daniel 2:44
Jimmy
King Phenomenon
Makes it difficult for the prokaryotes too but you don’t hear them complaining. Haha
Jimmy
King Phenomenon
…and so the evidence says.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
in the newest translation Abdu'l- Baha said:
Know that the attributes of perfection, the outpourings of divine grace, and the effulgences of divine revelation shine resplendent in all the Manifestations of God, but that the all-encompassing Word of God — Christ — and His Most Great Name — Bahá’u’lláh — have appeared with a revelation beyond all conception. For not only do They possess all the perfections of the former Manifestations, but They also evince beyond those such perfections as to make all others even as Their followers. Thus the Prophets of Israel were all recipients of divine revelation, and so too was Christ, but what a difference between the revelation of Him Who was the Word of God and the inspiration of an Isaiah, a Jeremiah, or an Elijah!
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions
Personally I think this means that Christ outshone the former (previous) Manifestations before Him by quite a bit, just as Baha'u'llah outshone the former (previous) Manifestations by quite a bit. In Christ's case this was especially true than between Him and the dependent prophets of Moses before Him.
Have you forgotten what Baha'u'llah said about the Bab?
No man thus far hath known more than these two letters. But when the Qá'im shall arise, He will cause the remaining twenty and five letters to be made manifest." Consider; He hath declared Knowledge to consist of twenty and seven letters, and regarded all the Prophets, from Adam even unto the "Seal," as Expounders of only two letters thereof and of having been sent down with these two letters. He also saith that the Qá'im will reveal all the remaining twenty and five letters. Behold from this utterance how great and lofty is His station! His rank excelleth that of all the Prophets, and His Revelation transcendeth the comprehension and understanding of all their chosen ones.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 243)
The Qa'im being the Bab. Also:
Even as it hath been recorded in the "Kafi," in the tradition of Jabir, in the "Tablet of Fatimih," concerning the character of the Qá'im: "He shall manifest the perfection of Moses, the splendour of Jesus, and the patience of Job. His chosen ones shall be abased in His day. Their heads shall be offered as presents even as the heads of the Turks and the Daylamites. They shall be slain and burnt. Fear shall seize them; dismay and alarm shall strike terror into their hearts. The earth shall be dyed with their blood. Their womenfolk shall bewail and lament. These indeed are my friends!" Consider, not a single letter of this tradition hath remained unfulfilled.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 244)
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Not that either of you care, but Jews believe this was about one of their Kings, Hezekiah.
So, according to the Jewish interpretation, who is Isaiah 9:6-7 speaking about?
According to Judaism, the answer is in the names chosen. The name ‘Hezekiah’ which in Hebrew is ‘Chizkiyah’ comes from the words ‘chazak’ and ‘Ya.’ ‘Chazak’ means ‘strong’ or ‘mighty’ and ‘Ya’ is the shortened name for Gd used as a suffix. Many might recognize the Ya’ in the word, ‘halleluyah’ which means,’praise Gd.’ Judaism believes that Isaiah 9:6-7 refers to Hezekiah, who reigned for almost 30 years. The name Hezekiah, Chizkiyah, is the same name in meaning, as one finds in the verses from Isaiah 9:6-7, a ‘Mighty Gd.’
This was an interesting comment... If this is true, it makes Christians and anybody that uses that translation look bad.
English language Christian translations are, perhaps intentionally, incorrect. For comparison:
KJV:
Complete Jewish Bible:
Now we see that Isaiah 9:6 is about a baby born to be the future king of Judah. There is no suggestion that he was “the mighty God”, because it is “the mighty God” who supposedly calls him the prince of peace. This theme is carried forward into Isaiah 9:7, which says he will sit on the throne of David to establish his kingdom and support it with justice and righteousness.
And then this goes into detail why Jews believe it refers to Hezekiah... Here's just one paragraph.Who is the child the prophet speaks about?
Answer: Isaiah is known for the method by which he presents many of his messages through the use of prophetic names (Isaiah 7:3, 14; 8:3). In the verse under study, the prophet expounds his message by formulating a prophetic name for Hezekiah. The words of this name form a sentence expressive of God's greatness, which will become manifest in the benefits to be bestowed upon the future king in his lifetime. Thus, the name, though borne by the king, serves, in reality, as a testimonial to God. Hezekiah is called "a wonderful counselor" because this name is a sign, which foretells God's design for him.
But I suspect that Christians nor Baha'is care about what Jews believe about their own Scriptures.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are free to believe that if you want to, but that is not what I believe. It is also not what the Bible says about the seat of the government in the last days.
Isaiah 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Baha'is believe that the seat of the government has already been established and it is called is the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) located on Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel thus fulfilling the prophecy cited above.
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
The verse says "shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed."
The verse does not say "shall Jesus in heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed."
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Nice picture!Baha'is believe that the seat of the government has already been established and it is called is the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) located on Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel thus fulfilling the prophecy cited above.
