The Return of Christ

[TransmutingSoul]

"Mark 16:15 He (Jesus) said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

​

Lots of problems with these verses. For one, they're not in the oldest manuscripts. So, were they added in later? And by whom?

And about these "signs" that will accompany the believers... They will drive out demons? Baha'is don't believe in demons, and if that's true, then this is not a "sure" guide to anything real.

Then picking up snakes and drinking poison? Some Christians do take these verses as a "sure" guide and take them literally... and several of them have died because they picked up rattlesnakes and danced around with them.

Then laying hands on the sick? Some Christians have put their trust in faith-healers. They stopped taking the medicine that the doctors recommended and ended up dead.

So, even for Christians, there are some things that can't be taken literally. And Baha'is believe that Christians have come up with several false beliefs and doctrines by taking the Bible and the NT too literally. So, what again... makes it a "sure" guide for Christians or Baha'is?

Especially knowing that the Baha'is interpret many of the things in the Bible and the NT symbolically. Now that, for a Baha'i is the "sure" guide... Taking the Baha'i "symbolic" interpretation of the Bible and the NT.

All faiths tell the first beleivers to spread out and share the New Message from God, to those that want to hear, and to leave others to their own selves.

So then read the rest of the verse knowing that by our choices we condemn our own selves or we accept and are baptised and saved.

Driving out demons is getting rid of gross materialism and erroneous thoughts that lead to ungodliness. The symbolic references to poison, snakes and healing the sick is about removing erroneous beliefs by giving the elixir of God's Word, the many tongues most likely a symbol of teaching in all the Nations of the earth.

So the verse can be a sure spiritual guide.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

All faiths tell the first beleivers to spread out and share the New Message from God, to those that want to hear, and to leave others to their own selves.

So then read the rest of the verse knowing that by our choices we condemn our own selves or we accept and are baptised and saved.

Driving out demons is getting rid of gross materialism and erroneous thoughts that lead to ungodliness. The symbolic references to poison, snakes and healing the sick is about removing erroneous beliefs by giving the elixir of God's Word, the many tongues most likely a symbol of teaching in all the Nations of the earth.

So the verse can be a sure spiritual guide.

Regards Tony

Yes, after you've applied a Baha'i type of interpretation to it. Christians still believe in Satan and his demons, and believe people can be possessed. And some Christians didn't get the memo that the verses about drinking poison and handling snakes is symbolic. And "tongues" is still something that some Christians believe and practice.

So, for Baha'is it can be a "sure" guide, because Baha'is believe they have the proper, symbolic, interpretation.

Unfortunately, for two thousand years the poor Christians didn't know that and took those things literally. Making it not a "sure" guide, but a bunch of teachings that led them down a lot of wrong directions.

Crazy things like believing hell is a real place... that Jesus physically rose from the dead, and that he is literally the Son of God and part of a Trinity.

But it's not only Christianity... It's all the other religions too. Baha'is have their own interpretations of all the other Scriptures, not just the Bible. And the Baha'i interpretation is very different than the interpretations the believers have of their own religious Scriptures. Therefore, none of them were interpreted correctly until the Baha'i Faith came along. Or so says the Baha'is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, after you've applied a Baha'i type of interpretation to it. Christians still believe in Satan and his demons, and believe people can be possessed. And some Christians didn't get the memo that the verses about drinking poison and handling snakes is symbolic. And "tongues" is still something that some Christians believe and practice.

So, for Baha'is it can be a "sure" guide, because Baha'is believe they have the proper, symbolic, interpretation.

Unfortunately, for two thousand years the poor Christians didn't know that and took those things literally. Making it not a "sure" guide, but a bunch of teachings that led them down a lot of wrong directions.

Crazy things like believing hell is a real place... that Jesus physically rose from the dead, and that he is literally the Son of God and part of a Trinity.

But it's not only Christianity... It's all the other religions too. Baha'is have their own interpretations of all the other Scriptures, not just the Bible. And the Baha'i interpretation is very different than the interpretations the believers have of their own religious Scriptures. Therefore, none of them were interpreted correctly until the Baha'i Faith came along. Or so says the Baha'is.

One can now see the wisdom in the balance between science and religion. Both have progressed CG, giving us the opportunity to embrace different frames of references, to consider differnt understandings of tge same Scriptures. So it may now be time for us to embrace our oneness.

Abdu'l-Baha gave many talks, as to how if we dropped the names, that the adherents of all faiths would see the same God given, bounty filled teachings in each faith.

It is way past time to let go of our superstitions of the past and this is the process the world is now facing. The Message of Baha’u’llah is 100% no doubt the required standard, nothing less will ensure the peace and security of all humanity.

It is not something anybody can force upon another, as God's plan is for each individual, and God's plan already knows the part they have chosen.

What part will you choose in the future CG, is entirely up to you. As a Baha'i I can only share the given elixir to those that want ro take it, that's life, that's faith and that will always be so.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It says he will come in the "glory of his Father". Not as the "Father".

John 16:

26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you....


The important thing is to realize that, Jesus did not want to say everything plainly and explicitly. He wanted to only make allusions to what was going to happen at the End. Thus He spoke figuratively:

25“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.


That was because, had Jesus spoken plainly about Baha'u'llah coming as the Manifestation of the Father, Christians could not bear it, thus He did not say more.


"Lo, the Desire of the world is made manifest in His transcendent glory!’ The Father hath come. That which ye were promised in the Kingdom of God is fulfilled. This is the Word which the Son veiled when He said to those around Him that at that time they could not bear it…" Baha'u'llah

But... The Glory of God or Baha'u'llah is a title. Why was that title picked? What significance did it have in Shia Islam? Obviously, it's a great title to fit into the Bible and the NT.

Great question. I would say, one reason is to teach humanity, true Glory is not wealth, Army, and worldly sovereignty.
So, humanity needs to redefine what true power and glory is.

 

[CG Didymus]

One can now see the wisdom in the balance between science and religion. Both have progressed CG, giving us the opportunity to embrace different frames of references, to consider differnt understandings of tge same Scriptures. So it may now be time for us to embrace our oneness.

Abdu'l-Baha gave many talks, as to how if we dropped the names, that the adherents of all faiths would see the same God given, bounty filled teachings in each faith.

It is way past time to let go of our superstitions of the past and this is the process the world is now facing. The Message of Baha’u’llah is 100% no doubt the required standard, nothing less will ensure the peace and security of all humanity.

It is not something anybody can force upon another, as God's plan is for each individual, and God's plan already knows the part they have chosen.

What part will you choose in the future CG, is entirely up to you. As a Baha'i I can only share the given elixir to those that want ro take it, that's life, that's faith and that will always be so.

Regards Tony

The "elixirs" of the past didn't really work out so well. It's great you think that the Baha'i Faith will be different. But, so far, it hasn't. One indicator is how many "inactive" members it has. Another is the need to ex-communicate and "shun" members. Both of those show that some people aren't feeling the unity. They are left out. Or they dropped out, or got kicked out.

When more Baha'is show love, respect and humility, then I'll be impressed. Until then, it's all talk. Lots of religions and sects of religions have a good story to tell. And they all believe it is true. And they all talk it up as if it is true. But... they all can't be true. And I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are true. Baha'is got to be more than just talking a good story.

 

[CG Didymus]

He spoke figuratively:

Did Jesus speak figuratively about everything? What about the things that the gospel writers said he did?. Like walk on water, raise the dead, and cast out demons? Figurative or did those things happen? Then what about what Paul wrote? Why is that such a large part of the NT? He wasn't the manifestation.

Then what about the rest of the Bible? How much is figurative? Or how about the Scriptures of the other religions?

Figurative teachings don't work when they are presented to gullible people as the truth.

But figurative is a great way for Baha'is to come up with alternative interpretations.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The "elixirs" of the past didn't really work out so well. It's great you think that the Baha'i Faith will be different. But, so far, it hasn't. One indicator is how many "inactive" members it has. Another is the need to ex-communicate and "shun" members. Both of those show that some people aren't feeling the unity. They are left out. Or they dropped out, or got kicked out.

When more Baha'is show love, respect and humility, then I'll be impressed. Until then, it's all talk. Lots of religions and sects of religions have a good story to tell. And they all believe it is true. And they all talk it up as if it is true. But... they all can't be true. And I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are true. Baha'is got to be more than just talking a good story.

The best thing about all that CG, is that you only have to be concerned with your own actions.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Did Jesus speak figuratively about everything? What about the things that the gospel writers said he did?. Like walk on water, raise the dead, and cast out demons? Figurative or did those things happen? Then what about what Paul wrote? Why is that such a large part of the NT? He wasn't the manifestation.

Then what about the rest of the Bible? How much is figurative? Or how about the Scriptures of the other religions?

Figurative teachings don't work when they are presented to gullible people as the truth.

But figurative is a great way for Baha'is to come up with alternative interpretations.

Jesus spoke Figuratively about the Father. Not that it was not possible to tell them plainly about the Father, but because He postponed that to the time when He returns. Now, you have to figure out, what could He have said about the Father plainly that He did not say it then, but will do at the end?

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known" 1 cor. 13:12

"Face to face"? See face to face who?
The invisible God?

They didn't want to tell plainly. They made allusions. They gave hints, without telling the whole thing explicitly and completely. They didn't want to reveal it, to say, hey dudes, Baha'u'llah comes, he is the return of Jesus, make sure you follow him. Because God, only wants some, a minority to find it, whereas most should not enter the narrow gate.


"Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father commanded me, even so I do. Arise, let’s go from here."

The Christians interpreted "Prince of world" as Satan. Whereas Jesus is talking about Baha'u'llah here, that when He comes, He will confirm that Jesus was indeed sent by the Father. Otherwise, how would Satan cause people know that Jesus was sent by the Father?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I see this is a result of the rejection of Baha’u’llah, 1st Thess. 5:2-3 is events such as the League of Nations and the United Nations, which were not founded on the requirements set out by Baha'u'llah.
We are in that Tribulation and I would see that it is fast approaching a climax.................

The UN 'will prove to be' the 8th King of Rev. 17:11
Tribulation's future will begin when the militarized 'horns' of the UN turns on the religious world which meddles in world affairs
It will become more intense against professed Christianity because any false Christianity corresponds to unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70
The UN already sees a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world, thus with backing the UN can be strengthened to become God's modern-day arm of the law carrying out His wishers

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Micah 4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.​

2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.​

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.​

In the prophecy it says "Zion" and "Jerusalem". For Jews and Christians I would imagine for that prophecy to be fulfilled, it would have to be Jerusalem and not Mt. Carmel in Haifa like the Baha'is say.
For the Baha'is, there is "pruning" being made out of "spears" and "plowshares" being made out of "swords". When was that fulfilled? Or... is it an expectation of the Baha'is?
Christians maybe are taking things too literal, but are the Baha'is taking things not literal enough?

Since Pentecost the 'Israel of God' is the Christian congregation no matter where located on Earth
Not fleshly national Jerusalem but now it's 'heavenly Jerusalem' (Rev. 21:2)
Jerusalem 'above' since Pentecost is the seat of government for Christians - Galatians 4:26

Often in Scripture because 'mountains' tower over people then a mountain can stand for government over people
The old religious ' house of the LORD ' - Matthew 23:38 - Jesus said was abandoned

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Prophecies are not a good guide to determine if Jesus has returned since they can be interpreted a number of ways. The best way is "by his fruits" as Jesus says.

Yes, 'by one's fruits' thus we know MANY will call Jesus as Lord but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The UN 'will prove to be' the 8th King of Rev. 17:11
Tribulation's future will begin when the militarized 'horns' of the UN turns on the religious world which meddles in world affairs
It will become more intense against professed Christianity because any false Christianity corresponds to unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70
The UN already sees a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world, thus with backing the UN can be strengthened to become God's modern-day arm of the law carrying out His wishers

Since Pentecost the 'Israel of God' is the Christian congregation no matter where located on Earth
Not fleshly national Jerusalem but now it's 'heavenly Jerusalem' (Rev. 21:2)
Jerusalem 'above' since Pentecost is the seat of government for Christians - Galatians 4:26

Often in Scripture because 'mountains' tower over people then a mountain can stand for government over people
The old religious ' house of the LORD ' - Matthew 23:38 - Jesus said was abandoned

Yes, 'by one's fruits' thus we know MANY will call Jesus as Lord but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23

I can only offer your interpretations are not accurate, already proven wrong in a lot of ways, but in some ways still unfolding.

I can only suggest that the names of Jesus and Christianity have become a veil to the Oneness of Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The best thing about all that CG, is that you only have to be concerned with your own actions.

Regards Tony

Not really... That's why we make laws... to help control people's behaviors. And speaking of laws, the Baha'i Faith is filled with them. But have religions with a lot of laws ever been successful in getting their people to actually obey the laws? And are religions concerned with their own actions? Or do they try and impose their laws on all of the society?

I know. Baha'is tell it's different with the Baha'i Faith. The laws are only for the followers of the Baha'i Faith. Then, going back to the "elixir", if the laws aren't for everybody, and if everybody isn't on board and dedicated to obeying those laws, then whose going to follow them? A few Baha'is maybe?

And if the Baha'i Faith ends up like most other religions, the majority of its people won't even be obeying the laws. Like drinking wine or beer or smoking pot, or having sex out of wedlock or having affairs. Those kinds of laws trying to control people's behavior have never worked. But here's the Baha'i Faith putting them out their again.

So, that's why I think if the Baha'i Faith is really for real, it's up to its people to live it and show it... and not just talk about it. And if the Baha'is can't? Then how is it the "elixir" of anything? Baha'is can't even fix themselves. But Baha'is will be in good company. Which religion can even get its people to follow the Golden Rule and love their neighbor's as themselves? ''

 

[CG Didymus]

"Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father commanded me, even so I do. Arise, let’s go from here."

The Christians interpreted "Prince of world" as Satan. Whereas Jesus is talking about Baha'u'llah here, that when He comes, He will confirm that Jesus was indeed sent by the Father. Otherwise, how would Satan cause people know that Jesus was sent by the Father?

The Advocate, the Comforter, and now the Prince of this world... sure make them all Baha'u'llah. But I think Satan is a good fit... that is... for Christians. Satan was cast down to Earth. Christians have him as the Prince of Tyre, and the prince of the power of the air.

But who knows? We have four gospels that got canonized by the leaders of the Church. Do you really trust their judgement? Considering they believed in the physical resurrection, and later they made Jesus God?

But one thing I don't trust is when people pick and choose a few verses here and there and tell me exactly what those verses mean. But Baha'is aren't the only ones. I don't like how Christians take that one verse in Isaiah and make that one verse about Jesus being born of a virgin, but they don't use any of the other verses that tell us about that boy. And, in the story, the boy ends up being a sign for King Ahaz. Was that boy also born of a virgin? Or was Jesus a sign for King Ahaz?

Just way too easy to make verses mean anything you want them to. And too easy to ignore the context when it doesn't support the desired interpretation.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

Thanks for your writings,

The Advocate, the Comforter, and now the Prince of this world...

Later they made Jesus God, they say, but to me Jesus was God as the Word, the eternal priestly authority and spirit and life of all the infinite laws of creation that was present before creaton was ever created was even created as the Word which became flesh on earth as Jesus in the Body of God.

Now, we have to figure out, what could He have said about the Father plainly that He did not say it then, but will do at the end?
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known" 1 cor. 13:12

"Face to face"? See face to face who?
The invisible God?

They didn't want us tell plainly. They made allusions. They gave hints, without telling the whole thing explicitly and completely. They didn't want to reveal it, to say, hey dudes, Baha'u'llah comes, he is the return of Jesus, make sure you follow him. Because God, only wants some, a minority to find it, whereas most should not enter the narrow gate. Good point and To me the logic of the narrow gate is the fulfilled faith and morality as "What would the Creator, God, The Father do in all cases of fulfilled faith and morality of Christ, as the Will of the Father in the person of The Holy Spirit Person delivered by The Ark, teh Exodus, Greek for The Road Out, in the Person of Jesus in Body of God.

And to me all of the above can be explaind in the logic I see in the Kingdom through the Divine Will, which is to me in logic of infallibility as infinite wisdom, the "RI" real intelligence of the Holy Spirit person in being concieved in the person of The Body of Jesus as shared for all mankind as one in being, together with the Father and The Son, glorified and transfigured.

Jesus spoke Figuratively about the Father. Not that it was not possible to tell them plainly about the Father, but because He postponed that to the time when He returns. To me in logic He already has returned as The Holy Spirit person as The Advocate.

And to me this is the logic I see in the information.
And thanks to all for reading, Stephen.

Peace to all,

All the finite disciplines of earths can never understand the infinite disciplines of Creation in Order from the chaos, The "Big Bang", the defiled state of time and space of "The Big Bang" logically fulfilled and is The New Creation.

To me in logic, in the logical dynamic eternal state of unfailing eternity, in fulfilled faith and morality of the Creator and Redeemer for all becoming immortality and in-corruption, and with new eyes in becoming again with no chance, no more choice to fail as one in being together in a transfigured Body, we will see God, by the Power of The Holy Spirit we can see The Creator, The Father.

To me in logic, when the Will of God in fulfilled faith and morality, in 0 AD, Anno Domini, the Beginning of Church Time, became the Will of The Father delivered earth, in the New Ark of the Covenant through the Immaculate Conception when Mary said, "May it become to me not my will, but Your Will" through the Virgin Birth of The Christ, The Sanctified Body of God for all mankind to share as the Advocate in person as one in being as the Holy Spirit Person in our Own Body of God, from the cross when He said, "It is finished" 33 AD from created mortal and corrupt becoming immortal and incorruptible from Baptism to the spirit through the flesh for the soul of Our being in the Body and through Communion and Penance, Atonement and absolution and Sacrifice we are Confirmed and re-Sanctified in the Holy Spirit becoming again glorified and transfigured Body united into His Image.

The "Gift" is not the greatest receiving, but in passing out the Keys to the Logic of the Kingdom of the Divine Will through the Holy Spirit Person shared in the New Living Sacrifice, The Host in the New Temple of the Living Sacrifice, that transforms and transfigures through the New Eve, in and through logical understanding and accepted by faith in the wondrous mysteries of the faith in the Catholic Church through the Body of Christ in His Passion.

We open the doors to all in the Body for all to share together as on in being. Friendship restored and resurrected united.

To me this logic is what He means when He says, "Follow Me," "I will make you fishers of men."

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not really... That's why we make laws... to help control people's behaviors. And speaking of laws, the Baha'i Faith is filled with them. But have religions with a lot of laws ever been successful in getting their people to actually obey the laws? And are religions concerned with their own actions? Or do they try and impose their laws on all of the society?

I know. Baha'is tell it's different with the Baha'i Faith. The laws are only for the followers of the Baha'i Faith. Then, going back to the "elixir", if the laws aren't for everybody, and if everybody isn't on board and dedicated to obeying those laws, then whose going to follow them? A few Baha'is maybe?

And if the Baha'i Faith ends up like most other religions, the majority of its people won't even be obeying the laws. Like drinking wine or beer or smoking pot, or having sex out of wedlock or having affairs. Those kinds of laws trying to control people's behavior have never worked. But here's the Baha'i Faith putting them out their again.

So, that's why I think if the Baha'i Faith is really for real, it's up to its people to live it and show it... and not just talk about it. And if the Baha'is can't? Then how is it the "elixir" of anything? Baha'is can't even fix themselves. But Baha'is will be in good company. Which religion can even get its people to follow the Golden Rule and love their neighbor's as themselves? ''

There is no reply that I need to give to that response CG, it is just chocker full of your doubts.

I have none of those doubts CG, as I see the Baha'i Faith is the elixer that humanity needs to find.

That elixir is the timeless morals and principals that all the other faiths do have, and as you noted, many people do need to return to those principals.

All the best CG, Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I can only offer your interpretations are not accurate, already proven wrong in a lot of ways, but in some ways still unfolding.
I can only suggest that the names of Jesus and Christianity have become a veil to the Oneness of Christ.Regards Tony

True that 'Christ' is not a name, but Jesus as The Christ is why Christians are in Christianity - Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28 B; 1st Peter 4:16
The Oneness of Christ is because salvation ( rescue / deliverance ) is through Jesus - Ephesians 1:20-21; Philippians 2:9-11; Rev.3:12

 

[TransmutingSoul]

True that 'Christ' is not a name, but Jesus as The Christ is why Christians are in Christianity - Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28 B; 1st Peter 4:16
The Oneness of Christ is because salvation ( rescue / deliverance ) is through Jesus - Ephesians 1:20-21; Philippians 2:9-11; Rev.3:12

That is why a Jew is a Jew, and Muslim is a Muslim, a Zoroastrian is a Zoroastrian and Baha'i is a Baha'i.

Christ, the Holy Spirit is Annointed to all the Messengers from God.

That is the Oneness of God through Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...That elixir is the timeless morals and principals that all the other faiths do have, and as you noted, many people do need to return to those principals.
All the best CG, Regards Tony

I like how you say about the ' elixir is the timeless morals and principles ' but I find morals and principles can differ in different faiths
Jesus stressed the 'spirit of the Law' (principle behind the Law) which 'spirit ' shines through in Jesus' New Commandment at John 13:34-35
Not only self-sacrificing love for neighbor but also self-sacrificing love for God
Christians are to 'walk by faith and Not by sight' or sighted religious objects in worship - 2nd Cor. 5:7
Both fornication (porneia) and adultery are forbidden because that would Not be moral - Matt. 19:9

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......................................................................................................................................
Christ, the Holy Spirit is Annointed to all the Messengers from God.....................................

True, Christ is Anointed - Acts 4:26-27; Acts 10:38 - because his God anointed Jesus - Psalm 45:7
This will hold true also in the near future as we can find at Psalm 2:1-2. - Isaiah 61:1
In Scripture God's spirit (Psalm 104:30) is not anointed by God but what God uses
God used His holy spirit to anoint Jesus as The Christ when Jesus was baptised