Jimmy
Veteran Member
Sure, a lot don’t know his true nature. Hopefully they will though.
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The Return of Christ
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
If I'm not mistaken, you are insinuating that other followers of Christ who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses (like you) aren't genuine Christians. Am I mistaken?
Huh? why else would a person belong to a religion unless they believed it was the Right One __________
Jesus is the King who does the Judging - see Matthew 25:31-34,37,40 - Jesus will judge who is a figurative ' sheep ' or not
Remember: there are new people being born every day, we can't read hearts but Jesus can and will
Be assured No one Jesus considers as righteous will loose out
The 'hopefully' is because the 'good news of God's Kingdom' (Daniel 2:44) is now proclaimed on an international scale as Jesus said
See Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
At the soon coming ' time of separation' (see Matthew 25:31-34,37,40) Jesus will know each person's true nature
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So what? It is fallacious to say that Jesus is God is true just because many or most Christians believe it.
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
According to the Bible, Jesus is not God.
REASONS WHY JESUS IS NOT GOD
Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God,believe also in me.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said that God was greater than He was:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God, but we know that many people saw Jesus.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.
Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
MORE REASONS WHY JESUS IS NOT GOD:
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The list of reasons why Jesus is not God could go on and on and on.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So what?
Matthew 7
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
First, Paganism is practice over belief. Second, pagans don't believe that our spiritual beliefs are the only right way. That's not how pluralism works. Finally, this is one of the reasons why I enjoy practicing Wicca and Druidry. They do not constrain me, nor do I feel morally obligated to appease a specific god. I am free of it. In the following post, I elaborated on what this means for me and the positive impact that practicing Wicca and Druidry has had on my life.
By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...
:) Part of the "evidence" is that my entire life changed. I believe for the better. I am not perfect, however, and still ask for forgiveness of my sins. But I do my best to avoid actions that would be considered sins. Just to let you know. Yes, my entire life changed. I appreciate your posts...
www.religiousforums.com
Jimmy
Veteran Member
So what? It is fallacious to say that Jesus is God is true just because many or most Christians believe it.
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
According to the Bible, Jesus is not God.
REASONS WHY JESUS IS NOT GOD
Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God,believe also in me.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said that God was greater than He was:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God, but we know that many people saw Jesus.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.
Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
MORE REASONS WHY JESUS IS NOT GOD:
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The list of reasons why Jesus is not God could go on and on and on.
- I and the Father are one: (John 10:30)
- Before Abraham was, I am
- If you've seen me, you've seen the Father
Jimmy
Veteran Member
So what? It is fallacious to say that Jesus is God is true just because many or most Christians believe it.
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
According to the Bible, Jesus is not God.
REASONS WHY JESUS IS NOT GOD
Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God,believe also in me.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said that God was greater than He was:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God, but we know that many people saw Jesus.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.
Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
MORE REASONS WHY JESUS IS NOT GOD:
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The list of reasons why Jesus is not God could go on and on and on.
- I and the Father are one: (John 10:30)
- Before Abraham was, I am
- If you've seen me, you've seen the Father
-
those few aren’t the non trinitarians
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nice try, is that all you got? It is a pretty piddly list compared to my list of reasons why Jesus cannot be God.
Moreover, none of those mean that Jesus was God the Father.
- I and the Father are one: (John 10:30) -- means that Jesus and God are one in mission and purpose.
- Before Abraham was, I am -- means that the soul of Jesus was pre-existent in heaven before he came to earth, so Jesus existed in heaven before Abraham was born into this world.
- If you've seen me, you've seen the Father -- means that Jesus was a mirror image of the Father since he had the attributes of the Father.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are correct. The few aren't even Christians, they are Baha'is.
Jimmy
Veteran Member
he’s still gonna return with a new heaven and earth.
Make of that what you will.
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Jimmy
Veteran Member
Not them either
Yes, they were one, one in: unity, goal, purpose, faith, belief, trust, agreement, etc.
That does Not make them the same person, and surely Jesus was Not praying his followers become God - see John 17:11, 21-23
Since pre-human heavenly Jesus was the 'beginning' of God's creation - Rev. 3:14 B - then 'yes' Jesus existed before Abraham, Adam, etc.
Seeing Jesus was like seeing a ' chip off the old block ', so to speak, but Not a literal seeing - John 1:18 A; 1st John 4:12
More like we might say today: ' like father like son', but we know the son is Not the father, but like the father in his ways
Jimmy
Veteran Member
Well, he’ll still be returning with a new earth and the new heaven. Make of that what you will.
The heavens and Earth of OLD was made new in Noah's Day - Verse 5 of 2nd Peter 3:5,7,13he’s still gonna return with a new heaven and earth.
The heavens and Earth of NOW is from Noah's Day to our day or time frame - verse 7
The heavens and Earth of NEW - verse 13 - starts when Jesus takes the cleaning action found at Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15
As the old adage goes: a New broom sweeps clean
2nd Peter 3:5, 7, 13 speaks of three (3) heavens and earths
1st the heavens and earth of OLD ( that's Noah's Day )
2nd the heavens and earth of NOW ( that's our day since Noah's Day or time frame )
3rd the heaven and earth of NEW ( that is when Jesus takes the action of Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev.19:14-15 )
The 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the Earth of the wicked
The corrupted political heavens (corrupted governments) will also be cleansed - see Psalm 2
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Make of that what you will.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think they mean it quite literally. That the Jesus who died and ascended into heaven will return to earth that same way, with his circumcised and scarred yet "glorified" body. At that time, they believe he will finally fulfill the messianic prophecies that he neglected "the first time around."
From the Nicene Creed:
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
Matthew 24:30-31
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Acts 1:11
Men of Galilee,’ they said, ‘why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.’
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
The Return of Christ
The Return of Messiah was much needed to clear from the wrong tenets of Pauline-Christianity mushroomed later in his name, please, right?
And it has happened with the advent of Second Coming 1835-1908, please, right?
Regards
The Return of Messiah was much needed to clear from the wrong tenets of Pauline-Christianity mushroomed later in his name, please, right?
And it has happened with the advent of Second Coming 1835-1908, please, right?
Regards