The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[URAVIP2ME]

The sad part is when we change the context from forever to temporary we then have a different perspective on what doctrine says. If people are then only punished for a temporary time then after this they gain salvation. It is only grace that causes the rebirth of mankind the elitist doctrine was sufficent at the times when the world was run by elitism. the church who created such doctrines new no better. They created a doctrine that fit thier elitist world view. By tidying it up, to the us - them logic this atrocity was born. Thier is no real sense for both a omniscient God to create mankind so only a few could be saved. Someone with such ability would win all not a few. :yes:

Can God see the future? Yes, but does he always do that? No, because he gave angels and humans the gift of free will to choose for themselves without His interference of foreknowledge except in rare cases involving the Messiah.

Isn't the punishment of Matthew (12:32);Hebrews (6:4-6) permanent?
However, God's will is that none perish (be destroyed) but repent and live according to 2nd Peter 3:9 B.

Jude verse 12 uses an interesting expression "twice dead". Dead more than once could tie in with the expression "second death" of Rev 20:14.

Only those who experience the second death have no future life or future resurrection to either heaven or the earthly realm of God's kingdom.

The 'few' of Matthew chapter 7 could be in connection to the' living' of Matthew chapter 25. Those that are 'alive on earth' when Jesus takes action will be 'few' in comparison to the goat-like ones.

As far as the majority of mankind, it is 'many' that will have life according to Matthew 20:28. First, the majority have paid for their sins by paying the price for sin which is death. Romans (6:7) says death frees or acquits a person.
That does not mean innocent. Like a governor can pardon a person meaning the charges no longer stick. So these people have not committed the unforgivable sin, and will have a resurrection as Acts (24:15) brings out.

What they do during Jesus thousand-year reign will determine whether they will experience that 'second' death' or permanent death. 2nd Thess (1:9) equates punishment with everlasting destruction. Permanent death would be everlasting destruction because there is no future life for those experiencing the second death.

Although time indefinite needs to be considered in context, isn't everlasting life or everlasting destruction saying just what it means?

 

[OmarKhayyam]

ahahahahaha the vocabulary police. Insult ,abuse after insult. Now if you cannot contribute to this debate I suggest you dont post. After all , you just made a statement with no theological proof. ahahahah your a joke. nice to be entertained by Coco the clown.

The phrase "theological proof" is an oxymoron.

 

[Muffled]

ahahahah what a load of rubbish. Actually this is what i call figurative nonsence.

He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

This scripture speaks clearly of TIME AND PLACE. By saying he WENT it is clear he is going somewhere, By naming Spirits in a prison he denotes place. These Spirits were disobediant at the time of Noah so time is written here. Your Zombie babies are a joke sigh

God is everywhere. You are thinking from your own physical perspective. You would have to go somewhere God does not. On the other hand dead spirits are somewhere but not neccesarily in the same place. Since God is already there where they are then the going is not a physcial going but a spiritual going (as a message going out over the air waves). The "proclamation" goes to those who need to hear it.

I can't be serious all the time. However the Bible does say that the spirit was breathed in and Adam became a living soul. Perhaps the body without a soul is just lifeless but those who claim out of body experiences say that they return to their bodies which are still living.

 

[Muffled]

This is the destructive view of God that so many have. They think in terms of him as a " Punisher". A destroyer of sin, and because humanity is sinful, a destroyer of sinful humans. Gods purpose is to save all of humanity from sin, to give us life, not to destroy us.

Peace.

However salvation does not often come without punishment. People need some motivation to do what is right.

 

[Muffled]

Take it from one who knows, try to do better with your spelling and grammar, or these people here will crucify you.

The crucifixon has helped me come along with mine.

Peace.

Actually I find a kinship with those who have dyslexic typing but a little editing would help.

 

[Thales of Ga.]

URAVIPTOME, but Yahweh told His prophets what would occur, so He indeed does know the future in detail!
Even the most attenuated form of Hell is hellish. Yeshua himself glorifies it in that extreme form of eternal gnashing of teeth. So, errantists as is their wont, rationalize these passages as Dr. Hick does when he avers that that fanatic just lay great stress on people dong good. No, that dead man meant it literally as did all the writers of the Tanakh and the Testament meant matters when they spoke of miracles and history. Yes, they weren't writing science as they had no ken of it, yet what they wrote is what they believed to be true. One errantists uses the silly argument that the redactor of the two creation stories know that they were metaphors but nay, he or she is reading onto to them their own thoughts as believers do as Dr.William Kaufmann in ' The Faith of a Hereitic notes;' see also his "Critique of Philosophy and Religion,"' and see how he was a great stylist and friendly critic of religion, unlike us new atheists!:yes:
Good will and blessings to all!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

griggsy-

Yes, Yahweh does know the future in detail!
From beginning to end as Isaiah (46:10) states.

But knowing the future outcome of his purpose does Not include foreknowledge of each individual. The use of that 'free-will gift' enters into the picture. The climax of Revelation is the restoration of peace and perfection in both heaven and earth.
Which angels will be part of the heavenly realm, and which humans will be part of the earthly realm is as Deuteronomy (30:19) states placed before each of us to choose.
People corrupt themselves. (Deut 32:5) and so do angels.
(James 2:19; Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6)

As far as hell, what did Jesus think he would be doing while buried in hell (Acts 2:27,31)?
Jesus believed the Hebrew OT writings. Jesus would have believed what the Psalmist wrote such as: Ps 6:5 that in death there is no remembrance... Ps 13:3 mentions sleeping the sleep of death... Ps 115:17 says the dead do not praise Yahweh(YHWH)... Ps 146:4 at death thoughts perish. Also King Solomon, who was known for his god-given wisdom, wrote at Ecclesiastes (9:5) that the dead do Not know anything.
Because Jesus believed them, Jesus would liken death to sleep at John (11:11).
That would mean to Jesus that hell was a sleeping place until he was resurrected by God from that grave. Even the word cemetery means sleeping place (RIP).

The words hell and hellfire are from different words. Hades, Sheol and Gehenna.
Unlike Hades and Sheol (common grave of mankind), Gehenna was a burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and not kept burning forever.
So Gehenna (hellfire) is a fitting symbol of destruction and not eternal flames.

The 'great stress' on people to do good was when the clergy class (which developed after first-century Christianity) used eternal fire as scare tactics on the laity to control them. As with Jesus, love of God is our incentive to obey his Golden Rule.

As far as the two creation stories: They are two accounts of creation from two different viewpoints. The first account: from Genesis 1:1 to 2:4 describes creation of the heavens and earth and all in them. The second account: from Genesis 2:5 to 4:26 describes the human race and mans fall into imperfection through sinning.
(disobeying God as God and law giver).

Jesus believed reason saves in that Jesus used reason when teaching others.
Jesus reasoned by referring to the Hebrew Scriptures even when refuting Satan by saying, "It is written" before answering him and others. We can reason on Scripture by topic or subject arrangement in context along the same line of thought to see which verses refer to the subject at hand, then allowing the other parts or corresponding or parallel verses or passages to help explain and bring together all the parts.

Mythinformation about Christianity is not genuine first-century Christianity, but what developed after the first century ended (Acts 20:29,30; Colossians 2:8) such as the dead being in conscious suffering in Platonism. (teachings of pagan Plato).

Blessings in return with all its rewards and benefits.

 

[shadze]

griggsy-

Yes, Yahweh does know the future in detail!
From beginning to end as Isaiah (46:10) states.

But knowing the future outcome of his purpose does Not include foreknowledge of each individual. The use of that 'free-will gift' enters into the picture. The climax of Revelation is the restoration of peace and perfection in both heaven and earth.
Which angels will be part of the heavenly realm, and which humans will be part of the earthly realm is as Deuteronomy (30:19) states placed before each of us to choose.
People corrupt themselves. (Deut 32:5) and so do angels.
(James 2:19; Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6)

As far as hell, what did Jesus think he would be doing while buried in hell (Acts 2:27,31)?
Jesus believed the Hebrew OT writings. Jesus would have believed what the Psalmist wrote such as: Ps 6:5 that in death there is no remembrance... Ps 13:3 mentions sleeping the sleep of death... Ps 115:17 says the dead do not praise Yahweh(YHWH)... Ps 146:4 at death thoughts perish. Also King Solomon, who was known for his god-given wisdom, wrote at Ecclesiastes (9:5) that the dead do Not know anything.
Because Jesus believed them, Jesus would liken death to sleep at John (11:11).
That would mean to Jesus that hell was a sleeping place until he was resurrected by God from that grave. Even the word cemetery means sleeping place (RIP).

The words hell and hellfire are from different words. Hades, Sheol and Gehenna.
Unlike Hades and Sheol (common grave of mankind), Gehenna was a burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and not kept burning forever.
So Gehenna (hellfire) is a fitting symbol of destruction and not eternal flames.

The 'great stress' on people to do good was when the clergy class (which developed after first-century Christianity) used eternal fire as scare tactics on the laity to control them. As with Jesus, love of God is our incentive to obey his Golden Rule.

As far as the two creation stories: They are two accounts of creation from two different viewpoints. The first account: from Genesis 1:1 to 2:4 describes creation of the heavens and earth and all in them. The second account: from Genesis 2:5 to 4:26 describes the human race and mans fall into imperfection through sinning.
(disobeying God as God and law giver).

Jesus believed reason saves in that Jesus used reason when teaching others.
Jesus reasoned by referring to the Hebrew Scriptures even when refuting Satan by saying, "It is written" before answering him and others. We can reason on Scripture by topic or subject arrangement in context along the same line of thought to see which verses refer to the subject at hand, then allowing the other parts or corresponding or parallel verses or passages to help explain and bring together all the parts.

Mythinformation about Christianity is not genuine first-century Christianity, but what developed after the first century ended (Acts 20:29,30; Colossians 2:8) such as the dead being in conscious suffering in Platonism. (teachings of pagan Plato).

Blessings in return with all its rewards and benefits.

So if God knows the future then why create mankind on a risk. This is a pathetic doctrine made for a Weak unwise God. Off course new mankinds future and eventaul outcome will be salvation for all. Any other theoloy is as stupid and limmtted as their creator.

 

[mickiel]

However salvation does not often come without punishment. People need some motivation to do what is right.

Why are you so bent on viewing punishment as motivation to do right? Can you see God using any other forms of motivation, or is he limited to this punishing that you see so clear? Is it possible for God to motivate without using punishment?

Peace.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So if God knows the future then why create mankind on a risk. This is a pathetic doctrine made for a Weak unwise God. Off course new mankinds future and eventaul outcome will be salvation for all. Any other theoloy is as stupid and limmtted as their creator.

Why say salvation is for all when Matthew (20:28) says "many"?

Who are destroyed (not saved) as Psalm (92:7) mentions?

Why did Jesus say there is a sin that will Not be forgiven in this world or the world to come if he did not mean it? Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6.

God IS love. So God wants those that want to love of their own voluntary free will, and not be created robots or automatons that can't think or choose for themselves. Was it a risk to first create free-willed angels in the spirit realm?
Not all of them fell away as Satan did, so there should be confidence that not all of human kind would fall away. Abel loved God.

 

[Danizar]

Why create people and send them to Hell? Wouldn't it be better not to create them in the first place?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Assalamualaikum. Its been too long.

Firstly, as far as Islam is concerned Hell is not eternal. Rather hell is a painful recovery as a punishment for choices that we made and damages to our own soul that we committed.

Why create people and send them to Hell? Well we go to hell and heaven because we have been given the ability to choose. Why? Because by having choice we humans can experience attributes of God and thank God for them as others simply can't. For example, as a human I understand the attribute of the Creator. But I don't need choice to understand that. Even without having the ability to choose I can understand the attribute of a God who creates.

However, what about reward. We are rewarded for our hard work only because we can choose not to work hard. Forgiveness is the same. We can understand forgiveness because we commit mistakes. According to Islam angels can't commit mistakes which is because they don't have choice. So, angels can not understand God's ability to forgive or His ability to reward or His ability to thanks because all of these things are associated with choice. If I force and cajole someone to do something for me I wouldn't thank him because he really had no choice otherwise. But if someone chooses to help me out despite not being obligated to do so then I am grateful.

The angels asked God very early on in the Quran why He was creating humans when they were going to shed each other's blood. And God showed the angels that He had attributes that humans could personify, so to speak, by being forgiving, rewarding, etc. that angels could never hope to even understand simply because humans had the ability to choose whereas angels just followed commands without question. Explaining forgiveness to angels would be like telling a blind man what the color "red" is.

So God can reward us and bless us in ways angels can't be blessed (for example, reward, heaven, forgiveness, etc.). Yes, this comes at the cost of the existence of Hell. But the fact that Hell is not eternal and that our choice is involved in any case settles it.

 

[shadze]

Why say salvation is for all when Matthew (20:28) says "many"?

Who are destroyed (not saved) as Psalm (92:7) mentions?

Why did Jesus say there is a sin that will Not be forgiven in this world or the world to come if he did not mean it? Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6.

God IS love. So God wants those that want to love of their own voluntary free will, and not be created robots or automatons that can't think or choose for themselves. Was it a risk to first create free-willed angels in the spirit realm?
Not all of them fell away as Satan did, so there should be confidence that not all of human kind would fall away. Abel loved God.

Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Weve been down that track salvation is for all
are you saying that timothy is incorrect.
you cannot use one scripture when another
refutes your logic . Christ ransom was for all.
everyone, everything. Change your doctrine
it does not agree with scritpture.

 

[mickiel]

Why create people and send them to Hell? Wouldn't it be better not to create them in the first place?

I agree wholeheartedly.

Peace.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Weve been down that track salvation is for all
are you saying that timothy is incorrect.
you cannot use one scripture when another
refutes your logic . Christ ransom was for all.
everyone, everything. Change your doctrine
it does not agree with scritpture.

Yes, Jesus gave his life as a RANSOM ( antilytron) FOR ALL.
How does giving his life for ALL prove that ALL accept him or he accepts ALL?

Doesn't John (3:36) says there are those that the wrath of God abides or remains upon them?______

Why isn't the word 'ALL' used instead of the word 'MANY' at Paul's words at Romans 5:15,19? Was Paul was contradicting his own words there, or at his words of Hebrews 6:4-6 where he says 'impossible' ?

Matthew was not in disagreement with Paul when he wrote that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for MANY because Jesus does not accept all that he died for.
(Matt 20:28; 12:32)

At the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ isn't there opposition to Jesus according to Revelation (20:8,9)? Christ's ransom covers all, but they are 'part of the all' that do not accept Christ. So as Paul wrote at Hebrews (10:26-29) where it says there is NO longer any sacrifice (ransom) for sins left for some.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why create people and send them to Hell? Wouldn't it be better not to create them in the first place?

God never intended anyone to go to the grave. Adam was from dust and if obedient Adam would have everlasting life on earth. If disobedient Adam would be sent back, so to speak, to the dust or grave.

Some angels were disobedient but Not the majority. Because of the disobedience of some should that mean God should have not created angels?

Since we are not responsible for what Adam did, but we cannot stop sinning we die. By Jesus dying he opened up the way for imperfect people to be resurrected back to life either in heaven or be part of the meek to inherit the earth. -(Psalm 37:11,29,38)

First, the dead Jesus would need to resurrected out of hell. (Acts 2:27,31)
God did resurrect Jesus out of hell and grants Jesus to resurrect us out of hell. If Jesus would not have been resurrected he, like Adam, would have just become dust.

What did Jesus believe he would be doing while in hell? Jesus would have believed what the Psalmist wrote that the dead are in a sleeping state.
(Ps 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4) Even at death thoughts perish.
King Solomon wrote for us that the dead are Not conscious of anything at Ecclesiastes (9:5,10). That is why at John (11:11) Jesus would liken being dead to being asleep (RIP). So the hell that Jesus was buried in was the common grave of mankind until God resurrected him.

Acts (24:15) says there will be a resurrection of both just and unjust. So as Jesus awakened his friend Lazarus from death's sleep, so on resurrection mourning there will be a resurrection from hell as Revelation (20:13) indicates.

Hellfire came about because of the word: Gehenna. Hell is often translated from the words hades and sheol. But because Gehenna was a burning garbage dump outside of Jerusalem it became know as hellfire. Since fire destroys things then Gehenna was a fitting symbol of destruction, but after first-century Christianity ended its meaning began to change and people associate it with burning forever instead of destruction. Even hell comes to an end at Rev. (20:13,14) after those in hell are delivered up. Then, emptied-out hell, or the common grave, will die a symbolic second death of no further existence.
After that for men, death will be no more. -see Rev 21:3,4.

 

[shadze]

Yes, Jesus gave his life as a RANSOM ( antilytron) FOR ALL.
How does giving his life for ALL prove that ALL accept him or he accepts ALL?

Doesn't John (3:36) says there are those that the wrath of God abides or remains upon them?______

Why isn't the word 'ALL' used instead of the word 'MANY' at Paul's words at Romans 5:15,19? Was Paul was contradicting his own words there, or at his words of Hebrews 6:4-6 where he says 'impossible' ?

Matthew was not in disagreement with Paul when he wrote that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for MANY because Jesus does not accept all that he died for.
(Matt 20:28; 12:32)

At the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ isn't there opposition to Jesus according to Revelation (20:8,9)? Christ's ransom covers all, but they are 'part of the all' that do not accept Christ. So as Paul wrote at Hebrews (10:26-29) where it says there is NO longer any sacrifice (ransom) for sins left for some.

you cannot try and justify your reasoning. You have agreed Jesus ransom was for all.
Jesus died for all mankind. He was rewarded for all mankind. You are confused between those who choose Christ and are blood heirs and rulers to salvation for all.

.
1 John 2:2 (King James Version)


2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 (New International Version)

2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.


Scripture is clear Christ was the atoning sacrifice for All the world


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22

Scripture is clear using All as a example sayin in Christ all will be made alive. If you were correct it should say many would be alive


KJVFor God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NIV©For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Here it is clear that God would have mercy to all mankind not a few.

Colossians 1:15-20 (King James Version

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

God promises to reconcile everything for Himself. Everything will be made right in Gods sight .

1 Timothy 4:9-20 (King James Version)

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Scripture tell us itself the God is the saviuor of All mankind . Not some or a few everything. Scripture teaches reconciliation to all not a few.Mercy to all not a few.
Ransom to all not a few.It is thier for everyone to see.how blind are you that you cannot see the fruits of your gospel. How weak is the God you believe in who cannot save all. Who has not paid for all mankind. Let me compare them both.

KJVYe shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Your God
Only saves a few
Most of mankind will be destroyed or tormented
Christ died for a few people
Because he is all know he new he would lose most of his creation to disabediance and sin
Has no rehabiltation plan
Is cruel to allow this

My God
Saves all
All mankind will worship him
Christ ransom paid for all mankinds sin
All mankind will be reconciled to him
He has a rehibilatation plan that purifys unbeleiver through fire.
Because he is all knowing he sent his Son to save all.

The fruits of your doctrine are of thorns and thistles and lie wanting
In comparism they are evil and disgusting . By thier fruits you know them

 

[strange_lupe]

No matter what cruel acts a person has committed at some point that person just isn't going to deserve any more punishment. Even Hitler or Pol Pot created a finite amount of suffering, it would seem the God many religious fanatics believe in is less merciful then even them

 

[OmarKhayyam]

No matter what cruel acts a person has committed at some point that person just isn't going to deserve any more punishment. Even Hitler or Pol Pot created a finite amount of suffering, it would seem the God many religious fanatics believe in is less merciful then even them

Six pages of an 'angels on the head of a pin' argument. What nonsense.

BTW, fire destroys things? Another example of the willful ignorance that religious faith requires. And coming from a someone whose atoms were formed in a very hot "fire" indeed.

Religious faith is just pathetic ignorance.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No matter what cruel acts a person has committed at some point that person just isn't going to deserve any more punishment. Even Hitler or Pol Pot created a finite amount of suffering, it would seem the God many religious fanatics believe in is less merciful then even them

What is the 'punishment' mentioned at 2nd Thessalonians 1:9?__________
Please notice that punishment is equated to 'everlasting destruction'.

There is no eternal suffering. Eternal destruction is what Adam experienced.
Adam was from dust and his punishment was returning to the dust.
From non-existence Adam returned to non-existence.

Doesn't Psalm 92:7 mention that the punishment for the wicked is being destroyed forever?______ When Jesus promised the humble meek would inherit the earth he referred to Psalm 37:11. That Psalm also says in verse 29 the righteous (not wicked) will dwell therein forever. Verse 38 shows the end of the wicked will be cut off. Proverbs (2:21,22) shows the upright remain but the wicked are cut off and rooted out. Prov (10:30) says the righteous will not be moved, but the wicked will not inherit the earth. Verse 7 even mentions the name of the wicked one will rot, and verse 27 the life of the wicked will be shortened. The wicked do not inherit everlasting life anywhere either in heaven or earth, but end in everlasting death in destruction. Even wicked Satan does not have everlasting life but according to Hebrews (2:14 B) Jesus destroys Satan. So sinner Satan is not death proof. Proverbs (21:18) says the wicked will be a ransom for the righteous.

So the definition of hell in harmony with Scripture is the common grave where as Jesus believed is a sleeping place. See John 11:11; Acts 2:27,31.
God IS love and love does not torture endlessly. The living know we will die but the dead according to Ecclesiastes (9:5,10) know nothing. Like Adam the wicked will be destroyed and know nothing ever again. The resurrection according to Acts (24:15) is for the just and unjust, not the wicked. Those alive or living when Jesus takes action (Isaiah 11:4; Rev 19:15) will be separated as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. See Matthew (25:32,46) and the goat-like ones go away into everlasting punishment, or as 2nd Thess 1:9 calls punishment: everlasting destruction. On the other hand, the sheep-like ones into everlasting existence.