Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War

[Debater Slayer]

Too many people have said that this war is an occasion to dethrone Putin.
So these people are disposed to sacrifice the Europeans' peaceful lifestyle in order to unleash a war against the tsar.

You make it sound like Europeans are pawns with no will of their own. Evidence indicates that most Europeans support giving aid to Ukraine.

74 percent of Europeans support EU’s backing for Ukraine, poll finds

But the number varies greatly from one member country to another, Eurobarometer poll shows.

www.politico.eu

European public opinion remains supportive of Ukraine

Public support for Ukraine is holding up in allied countries, but preparations should be made for scenarios in which support ebbs away.

www.bruegel.org

Europe is an almost entirely democratic region where people can openly criticize their governments and vote them out of office if the majority of people disagree enough with current policies. The fact that support for Ukraine has been so steady says something.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

More than one independent organization has verified that Gaddafi indeed massacred many Libyans, though, including events that happened long before the 2011 civil war.

Libya: Abu Salim Prison Massacre Remembered

The sixteenth anniversary of the Abu Salim prison massacre on June 28 to 29, 2012, offers victims’ families across Libya the first chance to commemorate the 1996 tragedy without fear of government repression.

www.hrw.org

Unit led by Gaddafi's son carried out Tripoli massacre - HRW

A military unit commanded by one of Muammar Gaddafi's sons appears to have been responsible for the summary execution of dozens of detainees in a warehouse near Tripoli last week, a human rights organisation said on Monday.

www.reuters.com

Human Rights Watch has also reported abuses carried out by rebel militias:

Libya: New Proof of Mass Killings at Gaddafi Death Site

www.hrw.org

The rebel militias ended up not being any better, but this doesn't change that Gaddafi's regime also committed large-scale abuses against many Libyans.

I was referring to the claims that Gaddafi was massacring unarmed protestors, which is the excuse they used to invade. I've never seen any proof of that.

Gaddafi wasn't an angel, but I think we can say Libya was better off under him than under the lunatics we turned it over to, if we had to choose.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Are you saying that Nordstream one Nordstream two are bad things because Europe basically gives Russia lots of money in exchange for resources?

If Russia was a trusted democracy there would be few issues, but when we have this nation being so aggressive and threatening to use nuclear weapons (even if done by Putin's close mates) what do you expect? Presumably Putin, when he decided to attack Ukraine, gambled that the West wouldn't bother too much. He gambled wrongly.

 

[Estro Felino]

You make it sound like Europeans are pawns with no will of their own. Evidence indicates that most Europeans support giving aid to Ukraine.

74 percent of Europeans support EU’s backing for Ukraine, poll finds

But the number varies greatly from one member country to another, Eurobarometer poll shows.

www.politico.eu

European public opinion remains supportive of Ukraine

Public support for Ukraine is holding up in allied countries, but preparations should be made for scenarios in which support ebbs away.

www.bruegel.org

Europe is an almost entirely democratic region where people can openly criticize their governments and vote them out of office if the majority of people disagree enough with current policies. The fact that support for Ukraine has been so steady says something.

Europeans have nothing to do with this war.
It deals with two Slavic nations who are fighting against one another because of territorial disputes.

The settlement of international disputes and controversies through acts of war is against the constitution of many EU countries.
So we are speaking of humanitarian aid, mostly.

 

[Estro Felino]

If Russia was a trusted democracy there would be few issues, but when we have this nation being so aggressive and threatening to use nuclear weapons (even if done by Putin's close mates) what do you expect? Presumably Putin, when he decided to attack Ukraine, gambled that the West wouldn't bother too much. He gambled wrongly.

Do you mind answering my question?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I was referring to the claims that Gaddafi was massacring unarmed protestors, which is the excuse they used to invade. I've never seen any proof of that.

Gaddafi wasn't an angel, but I think we can say Libya was better off under him than under the lunatics we turned it over to, if we had to choose.

There are reports of his forces' killing of unarmed protesters:

Gaddafi forces fire on crowd in Misrata - resident

Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi fired on a crowd of unarmed people in the rebel-held city of Misrata Monday and are using civilians as human shields against air strikes, residents said.

www.reuters.com

Libya protests: More than 100 killed as army fires on unarmed demonstrators

World leaders condemn Muammar Gaddafi after army launches violent crackdown on pro-democracy protesters in Benghazi

www.theguardian.com

And the militas again proved themselves no better:

Libya: Militias Kill Unarmed Protesters

www.hrw.org

I agree that the later governments haven't been any better than Gaddafi, and I think that's something the US and NATO should have planned ahead to avoid when they decided to take military action against Gaddafi. I think taking such a drastic action but not planning for the aftermath or trying to ensure the country wouldn't fall into the hands of murderous militias was highly irresponsible and destructive.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Do you mind answering my question?

About the pipelines? Presumably Putin thought there wouldn't be a war and that trade would go on as usual. What do you expect the West to do?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Europeans have nothing to do with this war.

The broad support for Ukraine directly contradicts this. I don't think you speak for all (or even most) Europeans.

It deals with two Slavic nations who are fighting against one another because of territorial disputes.

And some of Russia's other neighbors are clearly worried about being next in line for invasion or annexation. There's a reason Finland and Sweden only pressed to join NATO after Putin threatened them with military action.

The settlement of international disputes and controversies through acts of war is against the constitution of many EU countries.
So we are speaking of humanitarian aid, mostly.

Does that mean you're also against Putin's act of war and believe he should have never started a war in the first place?

 

[Estro Felino]

About the pipelines? Presumably Putin thought there wouldn't be a war and that trade would go on as usual. What do you expect the West to do?

I asked you if they are a good thing. Trade.

 

[Estro Felino]

The broad support for Ukraine directly contradicts this. I don't think you speak for all (or even most) Europeans.

I guess I do.
If Europeans had wanted to join USA in a world war against Putin, they would have done that already. Since long time.

Does that mean you're also against Putin's act of war and believe he should have never started a war in the first place?

Exactly. Absolutely against the invasion.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I asked you if they are a good thing. Trade.

It would be if the money was going to a peaceful democracy rather than a warring nation intent on dominating its neighbours.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I guess I do.
If Europeans had wanted to join USA in a world war against Putin, they would have done that already. Since long time.

The US isn't looking for a world war against Russia either, as evidenced by their and other NATO members' strict requirement that Ukraine not use any Western weapons to strike inside Russia. NATO knows a war with Russia carries a major risk of nuclear destruction, and no one wants that.

Exactly. Absolutely against the invasion.

Then it seems to me that efforts to make Putin leave Ukrainian territory should be the priority. All of this wouldn't have happened if Russia hadn't annexed parts of Ukraine and invaded the country.

 

[Father Heathen]

"Why are you so defensive and unwilling to listen to what Macgregor has to say"

That's easy... My top three guesses would be, in no certain order...
1. He is republican
2. He has ties to Trump
3. He is on Tuckers show

It's because I value evidence and plausibility over convoluted, cockamamie conspiracy theories. It's quite obvious when someone is slurpin' boots.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I understand.
I also understand why Britain quit the EU.
I don't see any ideological compatibility with EU's common interests.

Well the vote to leave the EU was close, and many probably think too close to act upon, given that most now seem to think it was the wrong decision (me included), but then so much was probably presented as being enticing but where such couldn't actually be delivered.

 

[Father Heathen]

Too many people have said that this war is an occasion to dethrone Putin.
So these people are disposed to sacrifice the Europeans' peaceful lifestyle in order to unleash a war against the tsar.

The "tsar" is the one who unleashed a war by invading. He is the one who threatened and disrupted peace, yet you try to place blame everywhere else but where it actually belongs. Because why? Some bizarre despot fetish?

 

[Father Heathen]

It truly is sad. Our politicians don’t care at all about the damage and devastation being done to the Ukrainian people…just ongoing profits for the military industrial complex.

So if you help the Ukrainian people defend themselves against the damage and devastation being done to them, it shows that you don't care? How does that dopey-*** logic work?

 

[SkepticThinker]

An alternate view to the mainstream media's narrative and support for the Ukraine war.

Why do you listen to this fool?

 

[Estro Felino]

The US isn't looking for a world war against Russia either, as evidenced by their and other NATO members' strict requirement that Ukraine not use any Western weapons to strike inside Russia. NATO knows a war with Russia carries a major risk of nuclear destruction, and no one wants that.

Exactly.
But those NATO members were all Europeans.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Exactly.
But those NATO members were all Europeans.

The US also clearly requires Ukraine not to strike inside Russia using Western weapons. It appears to be a unanimous stance from the NATO members who are aiding Ukraine. Do you think any of them want to risk a nuclear war with Russia, which has the world's largest nuclear arsenal?

 

[InChrist]

So if you help the Ukrainian people defend themselves against the damage and devastation done to them, it shows that you don't care? How does that dopey-*** logic work?

Why did we go out of our way initially to provoke the war ? That didn’t help the Ukrainian people. Why hasn’t the US made any attempt to negotiate peace to stop the damage? Wouldn’t that help the Ukrainian people more than perpetuating the destruction?