UNRWA fires 12 workers over suspected involvement in the October 7 attacks on Israel

[dybmh]

Where does it say they sold the land and were paid for it?

Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nakosis]

Those villages were included in the 1949 armistice agreements. They were surrendered to israel by the Palestinians.

The Ottoman empire possessed the land of Palestine for 402 years. It was owned by the Ottoman government mostly. There was also some land owned by large Arab land owners who although owned the land, didn't actually occupy it.

So Britain took the land the Ottoman empire held by force

 

[Nakosis]

No real argument here.
This is obvious..
Are you making some point about the
Israel v Palestinian conflict that I'm missing?

Mostly just trying to understand the situation.
What I said is my view but not sure how I'd apply it yet.

I'm curious enough to try and understand and this is my way of going about that.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You asked about the 1949 armistice agreement. The purchase of land occurred prior to the war. There's pictures and transfers of deeds of property.

View attachment 88277

Ah, must have gotten your two earlier posts confused.

 

[Nakosis]

The Arab Palestinians were anti-migration. Seems they were right but ultimately were unable to enforce any border control.
Britain had political reasons to allow Jewish immigration mainly that of encouraging American Jews to support British post-war policy.

 

[dybmh]

blind faith in Israeli intelligence during wartime is foolish

There's a partnership between US and israel which too few appreciate. Israeli intelligence has been proven to be accurate. It's not blind faith.

FBI reveals controversial spy tool foiled terror plot as Congress debates overhaul

The bureau says it thwarted an imminent terrorist attack against the U.S. using a controversial surveillance authority that the House could vote to revamp as soon as this week.

www.politico.com

The "controversial spy tool" referred to above is unnamed... but... It's not entirely secret.

And that's why Antony Blinken, US Secretary of State, says the evidence against UNRWA is "highly, highly credible". The data that is being used to implicate the UNRWA staff is good strong evidence. It's coming from multiple sources. Some of it is raw cell-phone data.

Blinken says evidence of UNRWA staffers’ Oct. 7 involvement ‘highly, highly credible’

News outlets publish photos of UN staffers implicated in Israeli dossier; New Zealand pauses funding over 'incredibly serious' allegations; Israel cancels meetings with UNRWA head

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And that's why Antony Blinken, US says the evidence against UNRWA is "highly, highly credible". The data that is being used to implicate the UNRWA staff is good strong evidence.

1. Blinken also noted: "We haven’t had the ability to investigate [the allegations] ourselves."
2. Meanwhile, out of an UNWRA staff of some 30,000 people, it would be "highly, highly" remarkable if none were associated with Hamas.

 

[libre]

There's a partnership between US and israel which too few appreciate.

I have significantly more distrust in the US intelligence community than I do the Israeli one. I don't doubt their capabilities, I recognize that their stated goals are almost always at odds with the actual practice of the three letter agencies.

.
View attachment 88286

Pegasus is incredibly capable exploit no doubt.
It was not created by Israeli state intelligence but by the company NSO group which has been internationally renowned as one of the most dangerous corporations in the 'insecurity industry'. They are a case study in irresponsible use and sale of intelligence tools to abusive parties.

Their spyware has been tied to the killing of Jamal khashoggi, and is used throughout the world by corrupt governments that lack the ability to develop their own exploits. Canadian sigint expert Ron Deibert was given the order of Canada for running the lab which discovered and exposed the existence and use of Pegasus in the field.

The NSO group has also spent considerable time investigating the Citizen Lab for exposing what operations their software was involved in.

 

[dybmh]

1. Blinken also noted: "We haven’t had the ability to investigate [the allegations] ourselves."

The evidence is credible because the source is credible. Each of the pieces of evidence supprot each other without contradiction.

1. Meanwhile, out of an UNWRA staff of some 30,000 people, it would be "highly, highly" remarkable if none were associated with Hamas.

Irrelevant. The evidence shows UNRWA participation in the most recent attacks and the kidnapping. Their involvement and complicity in violent extremism has been known and documented for over a decade. Didn't I send you a link on this?

The point is: UNRWA is not needed. They cause problems. They perpetuate war. Now there is "highly highly credible" evidence that they are active participants.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The evidence is credible because the source is credible.

If you say so ...

Irrelevant. The evidence shows UNRWA participation in the most recent attacks and the kidnapping.

Interesting wording.

The point is: UNRWA is not needed. They cause problems. They perpetuate war.

Sadly, there is no lack of parties dedicated to perpetuating war.

 

[dybmh]

I have significantly more distrust in the US intelligence community than I do the Israeli one. I don't doubt their capabilities, I recognize that their stated goals are almost always at odds with the actual practice of the three letter agencies.

Pegasus is incredibly capable exploit no doubt.
It was not created by Israeli state intelligence but by the company NSO group which has been internationally renowned as one of the most dangerous corporations in the 'insecurity industry'. They are a case study in irresponsible use and sale of intelligence tools to abusive parties.

Their spyware has been tied to the killing of Jamal khashoggi, and is used throughout the world by corrupt governments that lack the ability to develop their own exploits. Canadian sigint expert Ron Deibert was given the order of Canada for running the lab which discovered and exposed the existence and use of Pegasus in the field.

The NSO group has also spent considerable time investigating the Citizen Lab for exposing what operations their software was involved in.

I apologize. I'm multi-tasking. Is there something here ^^ which discredits the information produced by pegasus? Certainly privacy advocates are against it, but, that doesn't render the information it produces "false".

The article I brought confirms that the data produced by these methods is accurate.

Question: when you wrote: "I significantly distrust..." It sounds like this mistrust is not about false information? It's distrust of the ethical use of the accurate information which is being collected?

This is important because originally, your objection was a lack of evidence. "Zero evidence" if I recall. Now that the evidence is being presented, objecting on the basis of "is it ethical to collect this data" is changing the subject.

Sidebar: Now it can be understood how the israelis were able to precisely target and eliminate the three individuals planning a repeat of Oct. 7th. They were also able to determine that the location was *actually* a civilian hospital lacking any military presence which would prohibit a small team operation. I mention this, because, it is a very recent example of the accuracy off the intelligence produced by the israeli methods. They have a proven track record of accurate data collection.

 

[dybmh]

If you say so ...

The article I posted says so. The US Secretary of State says so. The most recent operation in the hospital in Jenin confirms it.

Interesting wording.

I can't say more, because I don't know any more.

Sadly, there is no lack of parties dedicated to perpetuating war.

And no lack of political "enthusiasts" taking this opportunity to kick Israel as a proxy for everything they hate about their own personal "demon" named "conservatism".

" Israel's been attacked! Woohoo! Kill the conservatives. Kill the conservatives."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And no lack of political "enthusiasts" taking this opportunity to kick Israel as a proxy for everything they hate about their own personal "demon" named "conservatism".

There is much of that to be sure. Just don't hide behind it. Dismissing every criticism of Israel as antisemitic hatred does Israel no favors.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You are yet again omitting the reason for the Nakbah. Palestinian propaganda. False stories about the israelis compelled the Palestinians to flee.

I pointed this out to you several times. Didn't I? Am I remembering wrong? Are you intentionally omitting this important detail?

The question is loaded; I'm not "omitting" anything. I just find the narrative you're posting about the Nakba historically inaccurate and baselessly demonizing of Palestinians. I see nothing productive in engaging such rhetoric when we don't even agree on what the basic historical facts are concerning the displacement of over 700,000 people.

The Palestinian leaders LIED. A Palestinian journalist ( now jordanian diplomat ) confessed to the false propaganda. He says it's the biggest mistake they made during the war, LYING about the israelis.

Further, you have omitted the SURRENDER of Palestinian territory in 1949 because they started a war and LOST. They, the Palestinians STARTED a war and LOST. I'm repeating because I don't understand why you are omitting these details?

The vast majority of the expulsions were a CONSEQUENCE OF STARTING A WAR AND LOSING. If they did not start the war, there never would have been a Nakbah.

Those villages were included in the 1949 armistice agreements. They were surrendered to israel by the Palestinians.

Apples/Oranges. Did the Ukrainians sell their land, receive the payment then attack the new owner?

What a ridiculous analogy. Where did you get this idea from?

The Palestinians sold the land, received the money, then attack. They start wars, lose, cry about it to get sympathy, then start more wars, lose, cry about it for sympathy, play the victim card, start more wars, lose, play the victim, over and over and over again.

The above seems to me an extension of the same premise that Palestinians were not displaced, terrorized, or killed by Zionist militias—with another generalization about how they supposedly "start wars, lose, cry about it," which seems to me to overlook variation in views and the fact that the majority of Palestinians are noncombatants.

Basically, this is like trying to discuss the effects of the USSR's crackdown on political dissent when one participant in the discussion denies that the USSR did that in the first place. As I pointed out above, I have no interest in engaging in such a fruitless exercise.

 

[Debater Slayer]

How can the Ukrainians compromise with Putin?

Depending on who you ask, the answers may vary:

• "Why don't they give up some parts of the land to end the war?"
• "They should stay out of NATO as a compromise."
• "They should become a buffer state."

I have seen some of these arguments or similar ones both here on RF and elsewhere.

I don't believe any of the above arguments are sound; I agree with supporting Ukraine financially and militarily so that it can repel Putin's invasion. My questions were meant to highlight the flaws in the notion that people should give up their land or leave it if they can't defend it on their own. What I believe is that if they can't, other countries should help them to do so, whether by imposing sanctions on the aggressor or providing financial and military aid.

In Israel's case, I believe other countries—especially those who have extensive economic ties with it or provide it with significant support, like the US—should put far more pressure on it to adopt a two-state solution and demonstrate more regard for the safety and lives of Palestinian civilians. Various sanctions and cutting off military and economic aid or ties would be a helpful step.

 

[Bthoth]

About an hour and 15 minutes into the meeting. The lady Lorenzo pointed out very clearly, that the EU/UN body has not received any direct dialogue with Israel on the allegations, that it's media allegations that are being observed.


As much as so many want to claim, that US/israelis intelligence have supporting information, the very body that contracted with UNRWA personnel, still (as of yesterday) have NOT received any material information from Israel.


The debates on this topic here online are complete rubbish of online and media production.

About 2 million people are in peril and barely surviving in gaza. The humanitarian aid is being slowed because of the allegations but yet Israel is not cooperating.

The commission is NOT accepting the allegations are true but because they are serious, they continue to contact israel for the evidence.

There is no credible evidence. But accountability is important and investigations are ongoing.

 

[libre]

I apologize. I'm multi-tasking.

No apologies necessary.

Certainly privacy advocates are against it, but, that doesn't render the information it produces "false".

I agree. Pegasus is a very effective tool at gathering everything on a cellular device on a system level.
However, the power of the exploit doesn't actually evidence what the phones user was doing, or if it is being accurately interpreted.

My criticisms of NSO group may be slightly tangential, but I wanted to make it clear that more than anything the Pegasus tool has been used to attack civil society - and this is an indicator how limits on the use and sale of spyware in Israel enable abuse. Bringing them into the conversation at all just makes the alarm bells ring.

I don't doubt the ability for sophisticated Intelligence agencies to collect just about anything on a targeted device, but this does not mean I should trust them about what they find on other's devices. Given that this decision affects the lives of millions of people, I expect my country to consider the evidence rather than tailing the UK or US who have pretty poor histories of jumping into political and military decisions without knowing what they are getting into.

 

[Bthoth]

No apologies necessary.

I agree. Pegasus is a very effective tool at gathering everything on a cellular device on a system level.
However, the power of the exploit doesn't actually evidence what the phones user was doing, whether or if it is being accurately interpreted.

My criticisms of NSO group may be slightly tangential, but I wanted to make it clear that more than anything the Pegasus tool has been used to attack civil society - and this is an indicator how limits on the use and sale of spyware in Israel enable abuse. Bringing them into the conversation at all just makes the alarm bells ring.

I don't doubt the ability for sophisticated Intelligence agencies to collect just about anything on a targeted device, but this does not mean I should trust them about what they find on other's devices. Given that this decision affects the lives of millions of people, I expect my country to consider the evidence rather than tailing the UK or US who have pretty poor histories of jumping into political and military decisions without knowing what they are getting into.

Likewise, the use of AI and bots can create just about any story line.

"""Pegasus is a spyware developed by the Israeli cyber-arms company NSO Group that is designed to be covertly and remotely installed on mobile phones running iOS and Android.[1] While NSO Group markets Pegasus as a product for fighting crime and terrorism, governments around the world have routinely used the spyware to surveil journalists, lawyers, political dissidents, and human rights activists"""


it's illegal to even use pegasus. it's almost exactly what the problem was with china and the initial development of 5G and chip manufacturing, that caused sanctions.

Combining that capability with AI and Bots can make a terrorist out of Mickey Mouse.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Many have been moved out. Some 6 million. Most of who went to the EU. If the rest of the world can influence Putin to stop, more power to them but it remains a matter of might making right. Ukraine has only managed to hold onto its land with the military support of other countries.

You're asking me what should happen vs what will happen. Maybe I think we (countries) should stay out of each others business and all get along but the world cares little about what I think should happen.

I think that what will happen and what a sufficient number of people (especially if they are in positions of power) believe should happen are intertwined. If all leaders of countries other than Ukraine refused to aid it financially and militarily because they believed they shouldn't, what would happen, probably a victory for Putin, would be a direct consequence of that decision.

What I'm saying is that other countries that can try to stop the massacring and displacement of Gazan civilians should do so, such as by imposing sanctions, instead of telling Gazans to leave their homes and land, especially when some Israeli officials have shown support for "resettlement" of Gaza.

If you can convince other countries to allow you to keep your land or support your protection of it, that is part of consolidating of or compromising with might. If you can do that then you get to keep your land.

This is what NATO is about. Consolidating/compromising might so you can protect your lands. You can only own it as long as you can protect is. However you go about it. There is nothing "sacred" about any country's lands except so far as they can protect it.

I think that what I posted earlier covers the above:

Depending on who you ask, the answers may vary:

• "Why don't they give up some parts of the land to end the war?"
• "They should stay out of NATO as a compromise."
• "They should become a buffer state."

I have seen some of these arguments or similar ones both here on RF and elsewhere.

I don't believe any of the above arguments are sound; I agree with supporting Ukraine financially and militarily so that it can repel Putin's invasion. My questions were meant to highlight the flaws in the notion that people should give up their land or leave it if they can't defend it on their own. What I believe is that if they can't, other countries should help them to do so, whether by imposing sanctions on the aggressor or providing financial and military aid.

In Israel's case, I believe other countries—especially those who have extensive economic ties with it or provide it with significant support, like the US—should put far more pressure on it to adopt a two-state solution and demonstrate more regard for the safety and lives of Palestinian civilians. Various sanctions and cutting off military and economic aid or ties would be a helpful step.

 

[libre]

it's illegal to even use pegasus.

Not in Israel. I don't believe it is illegal in most of the world, because they sell to the 'legitimate' powers in the Arab world, South America, and even Eastern Europe.

Police use of Pegasus malware not illegal, Israeli inquiry finds

Police have been accused of spying on at least 26 individuals who are not criminal suspects

www.theguardian.com