Was Mohammed a man of peace ? - as his last words were to curse the Christians and the Jews

[mohamedtounsi]

If the sword is the solution then let it be... We Muslims are not ashamed that our prophet used the sword in some occasions and we learned great lesson from him, the sword is necessary when there is treason, attacks, retaliation... any logical law will allow killing in those cases. Our history is well documented and our Prophet decisions are logically explain. So if you don t have an accurate sources of your religion history don t attack other religions.

 

[Bismillah]

This is a lie. The Last Sermon makes no mention of Christians nor Jews.

It would be a good idea to see how the Prophet treated the delegates of, what is now, the world's oldest monastery and the charter of rights mutually agreed upon.

The Promise to St. Catherine:

“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

Interfaith: Prophet Muhammad’s promise to Christians

 

[F0uad]

This is a lie. The Last Sermon makes no mention of Christians nor Jews.

It would be a good idea to see how the Prophet treated the delegates of, what is now, the world's oldest monastery and the charter of rights mutually agreed upon.



Interfaith: Prophet Muhammad’s promise to Christians

Here is the video about it: [youtube]u0SsRmC6O5k[/youtube]
Holy Prophet Muhammad 's Letter to the Monks of St. Catherine in Mt. Sinai

 

[1robin]

I didn't issue you a challenge ... but I put forth a proposal. I said I'll post some message(sayings) of Love/goodness by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and you can post some message of Love/goodness from Jesus(pbuh) rather than spreading hate .

Is it wrong to hate that which is believed by the Christian to be false and condemns souls to an eternity of misery. I will accept your proposal except I will wager I can supply atleast one violent verse to corrospond to any peaceful verse you produce about Muhammad and I challenge you to do the same for the ones I will supply about or by Christ even though the abrigation of Muhammad's early peaceful verses by the later violent ones renders the proposal inaccurate. I am too lazy to bother making arguments for the sake of something as useless as hate alone. However I do feel obligated to point out the obvious fact that Islam is not only a false religion but produces corruption, violence, oppression, poverty, etc......My resentment of the religion does not extend to the average muslim themselves though. I have muslim friends and I have found Islamic culture interesting.

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

 

[arthra]

Lover of truth made a proposal to Robin..

I put forth a proposal. I said I'll post some message(sayings) of Love/goodness by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and you can post some message of Love/goodness from Jesus(pbuh) rather than spreading hate

Robin responds:

"I will accept your proposal except..."

Well I don't think Robin really accepts any such proposal..

As to the link Robin posted from "Myth of Muhammad" it is obviously a slanted biased source...

 

[loverOfTruth]

Is it wrong to hate that which is believed by the Christian to be false and condemns souls to an eternity of misery. I will accept your proposal except I will wager I can supply atleast one violent verse to corrospond to any peaceful verse you produce about Muhammad and I challenge you to do the same for the ones I will supply about or by Christ even though the abrigation of Muhammad's early peaceful verses by the later violent ones renders the proposal inaccurate. I am too lazy to bother making arguments for the sake of something as useless as hate alone. However I do feel obligated to point out the obvious fact that Islam is not only a false religion but produces corruption, violence, oppression, poverty, etc......My resentment of the religion does not extend to the average muslim themselves though. I have muslim friends and I have found Islamic culture interesting.

Well, you essentially didn't accept the proposal of spreading peace then. You chose message of HATE over message of LOVE/PEACE. And failed to include even a word of love/peace regarding Jesus(pbuh) even when given the chance(or even asked) to do so, rather you came up with one more hateful and false accusation about Islam. And you think you are following/spreading the message of Jesus(pbuh) ? Shows your real agenda and the real you. Hence I have no intention of furthering any constructive discussion with you.

Though I will show you how blatantly dishonest you and your anti-muslim sources(where you get those information) are :

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did).

If you just read the verse(2:190) just before the ones you have quoted it sets the pre-condition for fighting clearly stating you only fight those who fight you. And also notice how they conveniently put '...' for the sections that include 'But if they fight you, then kill them' within the same verse they quoted. You should be embarrassed of yourself for bringing this up. Read the verses....

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." (Al Qur'an 2:190-193)

Couldn't be any clearer as to the nature of the DEFENSIVE war. Even a 10yr old wouldn't read that as an offensive fight. And if you expect muslims to feed a sumptuous meals to those who fight them ? Sorry...ain't gonna happen.

And the other nonsense about 'Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city' - you are forgetting that Muslims were driven out of Mecca by persecution and tortures of the worse kind in the first place. They lost their possessions, their home, their people. So they were just taking their city back.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I got through the first 8 pages of this thread and didn't see one actual answer to the question of whether Mohammed was a man of peace or not. I saw all kinds of diversion tactics but not much else. Some of us have genuine questions about Mohammed and his so called religion of peace. It doesn't escape some of us that the entire Muslim world seems to HATE us and that vast numbers of Muslims seemed to admire Bin Laden. Did Mohammed love his enemies like Jesus did time and time again? Are there some actual answers to this question in the last half of the thread because I can't waste another ounce of energy listening to diversions? If so can you provide a link?

 

[loverOfTruth]

I got through the first 8 pages of this thread and didn't see one actual answer to the question of whether Mohammed was a man of peace or not. I saw all kinds of diversion tactics but not much else. Some of us have genuine questions about Mohammed and his so called religion of peace. It doesn't escape some of us that the entire Muslim world seems to HATE us and that vast numbers of Muslims seemed to admire Bin Laden. Did Mohammed love his enemies like Jesus did time and time again? Are there some actual answers to this question in the last half of the thread because I can't waste another ounce of energy listening to diversions? If so can you provide a link?

The Forgiveness of Prophet Muhammad (pubh)
The Forgiveness of Muhammad Shown to Non-Muslims (All parts) - The Religion of Islam

Thanks for asking.

 

[1robin]

Well, you essentially didn't accept the proposal of spreading peace then. You chose message of HATE over message of LOVE/PEACE. And failed to include even a word of love/peace regarding Jesus(pbuh) even when given the chance(or even asked) to do so, rather you came up with one more hateful and false accusation about Islam. And you think you are following/spreading the message of Jesus(pbuh) ? Shows your real agenda and the real you. Hence I have no intention of furthering any constructive discussion with you.

Though I will show you how blatantly dishonest you and your anti-muslim sources(where you get those information) are :





If you just read the verse(2:190) just before the ones you have quoted it sets the pre-condition for fighting clearly stating you only fight those who fight you. And also notice how they conveniently put '...' for the sections that include 'But if they fight you, then kill them' within the same verse they quoted. You should be embarrassed of yourself for bringing this up. Read the verses....

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." (Al Qur'an 2:190-193)

Couldn't be any clearer as to the nature of the DEFENSIVE war. Even a 10yr old wouldn't read that as an offensive fight. And if you expect muslims to feed a sumptuous meals to those who fight them ? Sorry...ain't gonna happen.

And the other nonsense about 'Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city' - you are forgetting that Muslims were driven out of Mecca by persecution and tortures of the worse kind in the first place. They lost their possessions, their home, their people. So they were just taking their city back.

Well apparently every one of the hundreds of quotes that Muhammad made about violence perpetrated on children, or until they acknowledge Islam, or cutting off hands and feet and refusing to cautarize them, or the murder of individuals who spoke against him or etc........ are perfect examples of the benevolence of Islam so I was wrong in believeing that a man who fought 68 battles and many raids perputrated any of them without them being forced on him. The fact that within 100 years of his death his followers had fought strictly defensive battles across N africa, Spain, the Ottoman empire, and the middle east are examples of the peaceful nature of Islam. I am sure the tens of thousands chanting in the streets after some dispicable cowards smashed a few planes into buildings and killed women and children, the muslim who screamed allahu akbar before killing fellow soldier at ft Hood, or the thousands upon thousands chanting death to American in the dowtown squares of cities of muslim countries led by their rightous Imams should be viewed as conduct worthy of praise. The fatwas pronounced against writers, cartoon drawers, school teachers, and death sentences given many wanting to convert out of that mess to Christianity are indications of the long suffering patience of adherents of the religion. I could list these undebatable examples of Islamic tolerance and virtue forever. I do not hate any Muslim however I hate much that has been done by some of the more radical memebers in the name of Allah, Muhammad, and Islam as well as hateing what the crusaders did in the crusades or the catholics with the inquisistion (but in Christianity violence seems to be the exception but with Islam peace is the exception especially during my life time) . I will hand it to you though that you have made a valiant attempt at defending the indefensable.

I am required to hate any philosophy or religion that is false but also forbidden to hate the poor misguided adherents to these systems.

Proverbs 13:5The righteous hate what is false, but the wicked bring shame and disgrace.

As I am not interested in haveing a peaceful verse contest then I will suspend my replies at this time. However I wish peace and wisdom to you.

Selah

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Well apparently every one of the hundreds of quotes that Muhammad made about violence perpetrated on children, or until they acknowledge Islam, or cutting off hands and feet and refusing to cautarize them, or the murder of individuals who spoke against him or etc........ are perfect examples of the benevolence of Islam so I was wrong in believeing that a man who fought 68 battles and many raids perputrated any of them without them being forced on him. The fact that within 100 years of his death his followers had fought strictly defensive battles across N africa, Spain, the Ottoman empire, and the middle east are examples of the peaceful nature of Islam. I am sure the tens of thousands chanting in the streets after some dispicable cowards smashed a few planes into buildings and killed women and children, the muslim who screamed allahu akbar before killing fellow soldier at ft Hood, or the thousands upon thousands chanting death to American in the dowtown squares of cities of muslim countries led by their rightous Imams should be viewed as conduct worthy of praise. The fatwas pronounced against writers, cartoon drawers, school teachers, and death sentences given many wanting to convert out of that mess to Christianity are indications of the long suffering patience of adherents of the religion. I could list these undebatable examples of Islamic tolerance and virtue forever. I do not hate any Muslim however I hate much that has been done by some of the more radical memebers in the name of Allah, Muhammad, and Islam as well as hateing what the crusaders did in the crusades or the catholics with the inquisistion (but in Christianity violence seems to be the exception but with Islam peace is the exception especially during my life time) . I will hand it to you though that you have made a valiant attempt at defending the indefensable.

I am required to hate any philosophy or religion that is false but also forbidden to hate the poor misguided adherents to these systems.

Proverbs 13:5The righteous hate what is false, but the wicked bring shame and disgrace.

As I am not interested in haveing a peaceful verse contest then I will suspend my replies at this time. However I wish peace and wisdom to you.

Selah

I think this post sums up alot of the West's and especially Christian's frustrations and suspicions about Islam. When you combine this knowledge with the fact that the Koran appears to be an incoherent, poorly written piece of literature, it's just hard to take his claims of prophethood seriously.

 

[1robin]

I think this post sums up alot of the West's and especially Christian's frustrations and suspicions about Islam. When you combine this knowledge with the fact that the Koran appears to be an incoherent, poorly written piece of literature, it's just hard to take his claims of prophethood seriously.

Exactly, but I will point out that this is only a drop in the bucket of the violence in Islam. I state emphatically that I don't necessarily believe violence associated with a religion means that it is an invalid religion, christianity contains violence in it's scripture and I will not deny it, but if the conversation begins with a muslim defending the indefensable claim that it is peaceful then what can be gained by a discussion that begins on a claim that denies the obvious. I believe Islam is a false religion for other reasons more compelling than it's violence. However I enjoy conversations with muslims that are willing to accept the obvious so we can start on common ground then begin to cover the less obvious.

 

[F0uad]

I find it funny how Christians go on a rampage against the Islamic teachings and then simply bring up wars that happened in the past. Before you are even going to attack the Quran be sure to know your bible.

The bible and the Quran are two different books for example the Bible is more detailed it mostly describes the context and tells us in detail what happened (sometimes), so for example when in the Old-testament god ordered Moses(p) to kill 3000 people it is simply a fact ''for the Christians'' with the context in the previous verses. When we read for example the Quran a verse commanding: Kill the unbelievers we can look at the hadiths when it was revealed and what the context meant to be (When they attacked Mohammed''Saws'' in this case and he was ordered to fight back).

People forget that God of the old-testament is the same god of the new-testament so therefore Jesus(p) himself ordered Moses(p) to slay those people. Its funny how Christians also try to equal jesus(p) with Mohammed(saws) while they lived in different times and different things happened around them. Why not compare Moses(p) with Mohammed(p) they at-least both had enemies and lived in a sort of same environment.

Its also world-wide accepted that Christian and seculair states have been the ''mass-murders'' of history not the Islamic ones, when you keep mentioning 9/11 (where muslims themselves also died) what about the Bombing of Iraq or Afhangistian were more then 1,5 million INNOCENT muslims died and this was all justified by some BS so please don't even try to mention this kind of nonsense what has nothing to do with Islam.

Now lets please keep this friendly and based on Islamic teachings before even mentioning anything about ''Terrorism'' or Wars, because even if we were going to talk about ''Terrorism'' then we would come to the conclusion that the west is the best at it they simply use State-Terrorism with there foreign policy what seems more violent then any other what we have seen.

 

[FearGod]

What if we die while talking about god the lies

[youtube]m1aXR7ejw2E[/youtube]
Last Breath - Ahmed Bukhatir - YouTube

 

[EvidenceOfAbsence]

How anyone could actually read the holy texts in association with this chap and assert that he was a peaceful guy, is outright insane.

Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

Convert or die? That sounds like a peaceful method of spreading the true word of god.

We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

This also sounds like the most logical and godlike methodology of spreading "truth".

Perhaps the best proof that Muhammad was not acting in self-defense is the fact that his own people did not understand why they were marching to war. His son-in-law, who was in charge of the military expedition, had to ask for justification:

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

How you could assert that the reason you follow the teachings of Islam is through their revealed truth and not simply through the bloody conquest that was waged to assert this religion's dominance is outright absurd.

As for Mohammed as an individual, there are numerous quotations here that would serve as sufficient to assert that every single one of you has more positive morality than a self-proclaimed prophet.

Awaiting the logical back flips that apologists will perform to attempt to refute this.

 

[arthra]

So evidence of absence..

If you can do "back flips" why not do your own work or study instead of copy pasting from a biased site like "Myths of Muhammad"?

A good book that discusses how Islam was spread can be read.."The Preaching of Islam" by Sir Thomas Walker Arnold

"While there has been military conquest by Islamic nations, as one reviewer said, it is proven by Arnold's research that the actual conversions to the Islamic faith were not done by the sword."

The preaching of Islam (Open Library)

Amazon.com: The Preaching of Islam: A History of the Propagation of the Muslim Faith (9781143059780): Thomas Walker Arnold: Books

 

[EvidenceOfAbsence]

So evidence of absence..

If you can do "back flips" why not do your own work or study instead of copy pasting from a biased site like "Myths of Muhammad"?

A good book that discusses how Islam was spread can be read.."The Preaching of Islam" by Sir Thomas Walker Arnold

"While there has been military conquest by Islamic nations, as one reviewer said, it is proven by Arnold's research that the actual conversions to the Islamic faith were not done by the sword."

Regardless of the original source, those quotes are from a pre-supposed holy text and still need to be addressed.

I'll investigate the book you reccomended in turn. =P

 

[F0uad]

Regardless of the original source, those quotes are from a pre-supposed holy text and still need to be addressed.

I'll investigate the book you reccomended in turn. =P

Ever heard of Context, first of all Hadiths aren't a revelation from god but its meant to be re-write history for the people, so read HISTORY in its fully context.


You quoted two times a hadith from Ibn Ishaq but the Hadiths you quoted are not Authentic so please reconsider your post.


Then you quoted Sahih Muslim what is actually authentic but you made a total wrong interpretation of it, first of all Abu Talib ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib was a soldier, a uncle and a leader of the tribe of of the Bani Hashim who was fighting with Mohammed(saws) against the pagans, so what Mohammed(saws) did was telling him to fight the enemy like all soldiers are ordered to do in wars, if the pagans would say: ''There is one god and mohammed(saws) hes messenger'' it meant they would surrender.

Now lets see this in the 21 Century if for example Country A and Country B are in war, and Country B attacks Country A, then the general of Country A says to there soldiers attack the soldiers from Country B till they surrender... How is this ''Violent'' in your eyes?

 

[Iti oj]

Ever heard of Context, first of all Hadiths aren't a revelation from god but its meant to be re-write history for the people. All the Hadiths you quoted have you read them in the context..

If not please say so and if so please reconsider your post because i have read them.

so that did not actual happen then or?

 

[YmirGF]

so that did not actual happen then or?

Naw, it was all love, peace and beards.

 

[F0uad]

so that did not actual happen then or?

You know how to fix ignorance by reading... :yes:

Didn't i say the two hadiths he quoted were NOT authentic... therefore rubbish.
And didn't i explain the third..