What do atheists have to say about incidents like these?

[gnostic]

You just admitted that you addressed me first and then you were crying about how I didn’t reply until 176 posts later. Which is it?

No, Hadar.

My first post, I quoted no one, and I didn’t quote you.

You responded to that post, but as I have shown, you didn’t address my point ecause you started to talking about fish, which had nothing do with post.

 

[Jumi]

Yes, keep ignoring the medical and police reports! Lmao.

The ones you provided didn't have any proof.

Why do you keep deflecting about what the reports say? Lmao.

Deflecting? I don't need to, neither would I want to because I only care about truth.

 

[Jumi]

“200 demons” probably according to the mother or some unofficial source. But the kid being lifted by an unknown force and thrown into the wall in the hospital was witnessed and recorded by medical staff. But of course you want to focus on the “200 demons” part.

Well you provided the link in your OP. If you disagree with your links, I don't know why you provide them.

And you're lying about them being recorded, no video is forthcoming. And I'm guessing you don't read medical reports like this even as often as I do.

Here's what you wrote in the OP

Especially considering the fact that most cases like these usually have multiple credible eyewitnesses.

“Police and medical staff document America's real-life possession: Official reports claim boy, nine, walked backwards up hospital wall and police captain was too scared to enter family's 'haunted' house”

READ FULL ARTICLE AT:

Children possessed by 200 demons 'levitated' and walked backwards over walls in front of hospital staff | Daily Mail Online

How do you know the kid was just acting? Were you there? I don’t know about anybody else here but I would take the word of the medical staff over some random dude on the internet anyday.

Ok, then who are the medical staff who've come forward with this? You also became awfully quiet when asked about what police reports say that kids were levitating.

First you lied and said that the report said nothing about the kid “levitating”, then I showed you where it says that it was witnessed, now you change your statement to “he was acting”.

Don't lie about me lying. The very same page of the report said that the kids were performing and being encouraged to do so by the mother's behavior. But you're lying that such thing wasn't there, right?

 

[ChristineM]

What about the indy star?

I will repeat
I can only speak for the daily mail report. The mail is banned by Wikipedia as an unreliable source

Is that any clearer?

 

[Truly Enlightened]

My weighing system includes my subjective appreciation of human reporting skills and honesty based on all that is known. If you know a better way to judge non-reproducible anecdotal events I'll listen.

Traditional science may not work well with anecdotal phenomena but I will continue to use my best judgment.

We are not talking about your subjective appreciation of human reporting skills. We are talking about your statement, "it is the cumulative weight of a thousand and one stories I have experienced or heard of in my lifetime that has me convinced the paranormal does happen". There is no difference in this statement, and "If you throw enough crap against the wall, eventually some of it will stick". All extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. Perceptual anomalies, or anecdotal experiences are by their nature zero-dimensional, and therefore subjective. They are not evidence in their frequency or their entirety. It is their frequency and lack of evidence alone, that should be enough to disprove their existence. Think about it, 10's of thousands of stories, and not one objective verifiable piece of physical evidence.

There is certainly a better way to judge non-reducible anecdotal subjective events. If it involves violating, ignoring, suspending, or extending any of the four fundamental forces of the Universe, simply dismiss it without prejudice. Especially, if the only evidence deposited is that the events are unfalsifiable, or beyond the reach of science. Without physical, observable, measurable, intuitive, testable, or falsifiable evidence, it will always be just another Gap-filling argument from ignorance. Believing in anything without physical objective evidence is not the basis for any sensible judgement, it is the basis for wishful thinking and to accommodate a personal bias.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Just because people report on what they saw, doesn't mean what they saw was real. If that were the case, then magic is real, because the audience says so. Reality is not determined by a consensus of testimonials(written or verbal). Especially when making extraordinary claims. Defying gravity can be easily tested and measured. If spirits or ghost were visible, they would be comprised of matter and energy. They would cast a shadow. They could easily be observed, measured, and weighed. There would also be some heat signature and change in pressure. This also is easily detected. In fact, it would be impossible for ANY supernatural event, to interact with ANY natural event, and not produce some detectable event or change. That is, it is impossible for the supernatural to enter or leave our reality, without leaving something or taking something away, that we couldn't detect.

Even if half the world witnessed a lunar eclipse, without a convergence of physical evidence, it would only take one person to make a rational case that it never happened.

 

[Audie]

Just because people report on what they saw, doesn't mean what they saw was real. If that were the case, then magic is real, because the audience says so. Reality is not determined by a consensus of testimonials(written or verbal). Especially when making extraordinary claims. Defying gravity can be easily tested and measured. If spirits or ghost were visible, they would be comprised of matter and energy. They would cast a shadow. They could easily be observed, measured, and weighed. There would also be some heat signature and change in pressure. This also is easily detected. In fact, it would be impossible for ANY supernatural event, to interact with ANY natural event, and not produce some detectable event or change. That is, it is impossible for the supernatural to enter or leave our reality, without leaving something or taking something away, that we couldn't detect.

Even if half the world witnessed a lunar eclipse, without a convergence of physical evidence, it would only take one person to make a rational case that it never happened.

We've all noticed here that some of our friends
place more credence on what the rest of us
might call "woo woo" than they do on they do
on science.

In another thread, the "flash frozen mammoth" thing
is getting an airing. "Coast to Coast" will supply
all the hollow earth, chupacabre, bigfoot, flying
saucer Atlantis, etc that anyone could want.

Care to share your ideas about what draws people
to woo woo, and how they calculate that such
is the cutting edge of real understanding,
however much it is rejected by conservative
stodgy old "mainstream science"?

 

[Audie]

Especially considering the fact that most cases like these usually have multiple credible eyewitnesses.

“Police and medical staff document America's real-life possession: Official reports claim boy, nine, walked backwards up hospital wall and police captain was too scared to enter family's 'haunted' house”

READ FULL ARTICLE AT:

Children possessed by 200 demons 'levitated' and walked backwards over walls in front of hospital staff | Daily Mail Online

— A nine-year-old boy walked backwards up a wall and ceiling as startled medical staff looked on after his mother claimed he and his two siblings had been possessed by demons, according to official reports.

The unlikely-sounding event was detailed in official documents after a child services case worker and a nurse both said they saw the boy 'glide' backwards on the floor, wall and ceiling.

Both were shocked to see the boy apparently float after their mother had been subject to months of scepticism when she claimed her home in Gary, Indiana, was haunted and all three of her children were possessed by demons. Listen to exclusive audio of the demon here

Latoya Ammons said her 12-year-old daughter also levitated in the home, and all three of her children showed signs of being possessed including 'evil' smiles and unnaturally deep voices, according to the Indianapolis Star.

Miss Ammons' home was officially exorcised by a catholic priest who said the ceremonies were officially authorized by the Diocese of Gary.

Police also observed strange goings on at the house and a captain of the city's force has said he 'is a true believer' that the house is haunted.

After a string of apparent paranormal events at the house hardened police officers - including the local captain - even declared themselves too frightened to stay there after nightfall and numerous city officials refused to go to the property.

Mother-of-three Ms Ammons, 32, said she was only rid of the spirits that haunted her family's home in Gary after she moved away and underwent multiple exorcisms and police dug under the house to check for graves.

The Indianapolis Star obtained hundreds of pages of official documents and carried out more than a dozen interviews with police, the Department of Child Services, psychologists, relatives and a priest to uncover the bizarre details - which seem like something straight out of a horror movie...

Just atheists? Such an insult to the sensible
Christians etc who dont fall for such nonsense.

 

[Stevicus]

Care to share your ideas about what draws people
to woo woo, and how they calculate that such
is the cutting edge of real understanding,
however much it is rejected by conservative
stodgy old "mainstream science"?

I think it's that some people are very trusting. They want to believe. Science can be difficult for people; either they don't understand it, or they are dissatisfied and frustrated that it doesn't contain all the answers they're looking for.

 

[Audie]

I think it's that some people are very trusting. They want to believe. Science can be difficult for people; either they don't understand it, or they are dissatisfied and frustrated that it doesn't contain all the answers they're looking for.

It is true that tabloids etc are a whole lot easier
to read. And more exciting! Batboy returns!
WW2 bomber spotted on the moon!

These things, like fundamentalism, appeal to the
less educated folks.

 

[David T]

I still don’t understand the point that you’re trying to make... if you’re attempting to crack a joke and be funny, then please go back to clown school.

Watch the documentary everything that you are talking about is in the documentary, its been documented and proved to be true. SCIENCE FACT. I think 1974 is when it was realeased. i mean we have a girl possesed, a dead priest l, she walks on walls even if i am not mistaken, its all there.

 

[George-ananda]

We are not talking about your subjective appreciation of human reporting skills. We are talking about your statement, "it is the cumulative weight of a thousand and one stories I have experienced or heard of in my lifetime that has me convinced the paranormal does happen". There is no difference in this statement, and "If you throw enough crap against the wall, eventually some of it will stick".

Well, I'm going to differ with that translation of what I said. I don't consider the quantity, quality and consistency of the things I am referring to can fairly be equated with 'crap'. I think it shows evidence for a universe that is more complicated than the materialist's view and a view much better understood by various esoteric wisdom traditions.

All extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

Perhaps materialist science requires physical proof of everything but my concern in all this goes beyond materialist science. My concern is: given all evidence and argumentation from all sides, what is the most reasonable position to hold.

Perceptual anomalies, or anecdotal experiences are by their nature zero-dimensional, and therefore subjective. They are not evidence in their frequency or their entirety. It is their frequency and lack of evidence alone, that should be enough to disprove their existence. Think about it, 10's of thousands of stories, and not one objective verifiable piece of physical evidence.

Multiple consistent human experiences is evidence to me particularly if it is of one particular event (two people see the same ghost for example). . I believe physical evidence has been captured by various devices but are by their nature not reproducible so not evidence that materialist science works well with. Again, I am not concerned here with applying scientism to the questions.

There is certainly a better way to judge non-reducible anecdotal subjective events. If it involves violating, ignoring, suspending, or extending any of the four fundamental forces of the Universe, simply dismiss it without prejudice. Especially, if the only evidence deposited is that the events are unfalsifiable, or beyond the reach of science. Without physical, observable, measurable, intuitive, testable, or falsifiable evidence, it will always be just another Gap-filling argument from ignorance. Believing in anything without physical objective evidence is not the basis for any sensible judgement, it is the basis for wishful thinking and to accommodate a personal bias.

What I am saying is that in my objective judgment materialist science's understanding of all of reality is dramatically incomplete from the evidence I have been discussing. And that there is a type of 'arrogance' in many proponents of materialism that will insist on force fitting many different types of phenomena inside their box of understanding.

 

[Audie]

Well, I'm going to differ with that translation of what I said. I don't consider the quantity, quality and consistency of the things I am referring to can fairly be equated with 'crap'. I think it shows evidence for a universe that is more complicated than the materialist's view and a view much better understood by various esoteric wisdom traditions.

Perhaps materialist science requires physical proof of everything but my concern in all this goes beyond materialist science. My concern is: given all evidence and argumentation from all sides, what is the most reasonable position to hold.

Multiple consistent human experiences is evidence to me particularly if it is of one particular event (two people see the same ghost for example). . I believe physical evidence has been captured by various devices but are by their nature not reproducible so not evidence that materialist science works well with. Again, I am not concerned here with applying scientism to the questions.

What I am saying is that in my objective judgment materialist science's understanding of all of reality is dramatically incomplete from the evidence I have been discussing. And that there is a type of 'arrogance' in many proponents of materialism that will insist on force fitting many different types of phenomena inside their box of understanding.

Tres amusant bit of irony!

The "theists" have the world working by magic.
How did we get all these kinds of animals?
God-poof.
How did mountains form? God poof, plus the
"flood".
What is disease? magic, from spirits
How did we get a moral code? God poof.

Anyone who gets past intro to remedial physicis
099 knows that every discovery brings more mysteries,
more glimpses into the vast unknown.

objective judgment materialist science's understanding of all of reality

Anyone who thinks that is a complete idiot. You are sure
batting at some low hanging fruit. Or more likely
non-existent.


Perhaps materialist science requires physical proof of everything

It so does not, this comment is not even wrong.

insist on force fitting many different types of phenomena

Maybe someone does that, but in science, it is the
very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

Theism tho. LIghtning? "god" throws it.
Volcano? "god' is mad. Structural geology?
Force fit it to the "flood".

 

[George-ananda]

Tres amusant bit of irony!

The "theists" have the world working by magic.
How did we get all these kinds of animals?
God-poof.
How did mountains form? God poof, plus the
"flood".
What is disease? magic, from spirits
How did we get a moral code? God poof.

Anyone who gets past intro to remedial physicis
099 knows that every discovery brings more mysteries,
more glimpses into the vast unknown.

objective judgment materialist science's understanding of all of reality

Anyone who thinks that is a complete idiot. You are sure
batting at some low hanging fruit. Or more likely
non-existent.


Perhaps materialist science requires physical proof of everything

It so does not, this comment is not even wrong.

insist on force fitting many different types of phenomena

Maybe someone does that, but in science, it is the
very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

Theism tho. LIghtning? "god" throws it.
Volcano? "god' is mad. Structural geology?
Force fit it to the "flood".

How did I turn into the backwards theist? Low quality and insulting response. No reply from me deserved for that immature mess.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

“The evidence is of low quality” — false

“No forensic evidence of any kind” — false

“No audio” — false

: (

Did you note the use of the word "usually" before those statements? No... what am I saying? Of course you didn't. You're probably so used to seeing what you want to see that that is ALL you ever see, eh?

Please note also that I called out audio as being "low caliber" evidence because of the ease with which anyone can edit/produce audio.

Please note also that you didn't even touch my claim that none of these instances can be reliably reproduced and are ridiculously uncommon. Please note why you did not touch on that point.

 

[Audie]

How did I turn into the backwards theist? Low quality and insulting response. No reply from me deserved for that immature mess.

Did it for yourself, I guess. Your words, not mine.

 

[gnostic]

The Daily Mail is a UK rag that has a track record of BS articles. One would do good to verify the stories. Or even better don't waste time on tabloids.

Yes, I wouldn’t waste my time on the trash.

I used to read these types of BS, when I was a teenager, but I haven’t been a teenager in 38 years.

 

[Audie]

Yes, I wouldn’t waste my time on the trash.

I used to read these types of BS, when I was a teenager, but I haven’t been a teenager in 38 years.

Others take pride in never maturing

 

[ecco]

I have to believe there are people that will have a reason to believe every story that strongly suggests the paranormal.

To me, it is the cumulative weight of a thousand and one stories I have experienced or heard of in my lifetime that has me convinced the paranormal doesn't happen.

Well there might be people like that, but I use my best judgment on each story. That seems like the way to go. All or nothing is not the way to go.
Then YOU shouldn't believe. But I would question your objectivity.

Why is all or nothing not the way to go?
How many phony psychics' stories do you have to hear before you know it's all a bunch of BS.
How many phony dowsing stories do you have to hear before you know it's all a bunch of BS.
How many phony ghost stories do you have to hear before you know it's all a bunch of BS.
How many phony bigfoot/Nessie stories do you have to hear before you know it's all a bunch of BS.
How many phony alien sighting/abduction stories do you have to hear before you know it's all a bunch of BS.

Knowing that paranormal BS is paranormal BS is based on OBJECTIVELY looking at paranormal BS.

And never the twain shall meet as long as children are indoctrinated to believe the supernatural.

I see at least an equal indoctrination in materialist science rules the roost thinking.

Really? An equal number? We must live on two different planets.

I can drive around for ten minutes and see ten churches most of which have kids classes and Sunday Schools and Bible study meetings.

I can drive around for ten hours and see no place where young children are indoctrinated in "materialist science rules the roost thinking."

Perhaps you can tell me about some of them that you encounter on your planet. Then you can also tell me what "materialist science" is as compared to "science".

ETA: I don't know of any atheists who believe in paranormal BS.

We then agree that atheism and materialism are often closely linked in the western world.

Why did you find it necessary to change the subject from "paranormal BS" to "materialism"?

 

[ecco]

Too bad the medical staff reported seeing what happened. I guess they were crazy too, right?

Did you show any actual documentation from the medical staff?