What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[Booko]

So, what about this verse of Quran?


وَقَالُواْ لَن يَدْخُلَ ٱلْجَنَّةَ إِلاَّ مَن كَانَ هُوداً أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ قُلْ هَاتُواْ بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

And they say None entereth Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian These are their own desires Say, Bring your proofs if ye are truthful (2:111)

From my chair, that would appear to be support Scott's reading rather than refute it.

*checks irony meter*

Why are you taking only one verse of Quran, is it the whole Quran? (I'm taking about 2:62) why taking verse only for your perpose and showing it?
Perhapes I have cleared this many times!

Well, why don't you quote the entire Qu'ran in a post then? That will certainly put it all in context! sheesh

Why do so many of you keep impugning malicious motives to people who are merely following a well-accepted online quoting convention that's been practiced for at least the 20 years I've been online? :banghead3

If you are noobs at online convention, that's suddenly *our* fault?

If we don't reference quotes from the Qu'ran with the same cultural conventions you do and word things exactly the way you want, we deserve to have our motives impugned and have people jump down our throats for daring to use English conventions when writing in English?

There's a reason I dropped this thread days ago. I am dog tired of having people ignore points and jump down my throat instead, and having my motives impugned by people because I don't write my posts exactly the way they want me to write them.

Well guess what? You get to write your posts and I get to write mine.

If you want to have an actual dialogue sometime, do let me know. :sarcastic

[/rant]

P.S. I'd be surprised if Scott thought much differently, but perhaps he's trying to keep his thread from being taken completely off track by this nonsense, so he's just remaining silent about. To Scott -- sorry about that. I will go and sin no more.

To maro and not4me: If the shoe fits, put it on.

 

[Booko]

Is it the Quran that teaches the oppression of women or is it just the countries themselves?

The laws embodied in the Qu'ran did more to free women, actually.

The oppression is not universal, and takes forms suspiciously like cultural practices prior to Islam coming into that area.

I've found the best sources for information on this are from fairly objective scholarly sources. It's generally unwise to be too dependent on partisan sources. I'm sure that's not telling you anything you don't already know.

I think most of the negativity is from muslims such as the ones who protested against the danish cartoons with banners that read "behead those who insult islam" and the fact that they emergrate into western countries, live off the stste and then preach hate and how immoral the west is.

This sounds like the stuff that goes on in the U.K. It doesn't resemble the experience with Muslims in the U.S. as far as I can tell.

Do you think those muslims who choose to live in western countries should intergrate more into western culture?

In the U.S. Muslims who've emigrated here have assimilated into our society about as much as any other group that emigrated here. Pew Research has done some very interesting work looking into questions about assimilation and attitudes on all sides. Check out their website -- they have a lot of interesting stuff there.

 

[Booko]

ok. So in Bahai faith; does one need to believe in God in order to go to heaven?

What if a person does things like saving lifes and helping the poor but just dont't believe in one God; does that person get to go to heaven?

Abdu'l-Baha states that religion should be the cause of unity, and if it isn't, it would be a religious act to stay away from it.

Make of that what you will.

P.S. We don't do the eternal Hell thing.

P.S.S. Oops...I'm really off topic. OK...I'm going to get coffee now and stop messing up Scott's thread. :sorry1:

 

[YmirGF]

*checks irony meter*

That is very rich Sharon. Kudo's.

Well, why don't you quote the entire Qu'ran in a post then? That will certainly put it all in context! sheesh

Oh I hear ya momma. I just don't understand why Muslims are incredibly obtuse. Any position that is the slightest variance from their own is automatically discredited... simply because the say so.

*Why do so many of you keep impugning malicious motives to people who are merely following a well-accepted online quoting convention that's been practiced for at least the 20 years I've been online? :banghead3

Brass ring Sharon. I just don't get it myself.

*If you are noobs at online convention, that's suddenly *our* fault?

Apparently it is. It's all a plot you understand. I wonder what Anyscientologist and GreatCalgarian have to say about it. *giggles like a schoolgirl*

*I am dog tired of having people ignore points and jump down my throat instead, and having my motives impugned by people because I don't write my posts exactly the way they want me to write them.

Ohhhh yes. I notice my 3 questions were completely ignored. Oddly, I thought I made some rather good points. Strange, eh? Evidently my comments are not worthy of note... or perhaps they simply don't know how to handle someone like me, lol.

To maro and not4me: If the shoe fits, put it on.

Surely you are misunderstanding their brilliant rhetoric Sharon. I know Summia was almost as thick during our incredibly short so-called "debate". I wrote the way I write and she got all huffy instantly. Go figger. So much for interfaith "dialogue".

I was chatting with mom about this thread and I blurted out in frustration, "Muslims just don't seem to understand the concept of 'free thinking'." It would seem to be an alien concept to them. For example, I know that no one sees their reality the way I see mine, but the kicker is that NO ONE sees their reality exactly the same way as ANY OTHER PERSON does. SO, to say that the much vaunted "religion of peace" is suitable for all mankind is absolutely rediculous. Why I say this is that virtually all Muslims sound the same as if they have no capacity for any original thought of their own. That, is truly a sad state of affairs... and they outrageously wonder what we think is wrong with Islam. Two words: Psychological straightjacket.

 

[Wandered Off]

I just want to answer misconceptions because there is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with Islam.

I think you have the misconception that what is right for you is also right for the rest of us. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Islam for you. However, it is completely wrong for me. Besides, if we were all the same, it'd be pretty boring.

 

[summia]

From my chair, that would appear to be support Scott's reading rather than refute it.

*checks irony meter*

Well, why don't you quote the entire Qu'ran in a post then? That will certainly put it all in context! sheesh

Why do so many of you keep impugning malicious motives to people who are merely following a well-accepted online quoting convention that's been practiced for at least the 20 years I've been online? :banghead3

Relax, Relax Booko!
Why should not I clearify someone if wrong point is creating from Quran.
The verse (2:62) doesn't in the favour of Christaians, that's what i used to put.
Today if you are taking this verse (2:62) as your salvation in Islam then It is not, I have just clearfiy this, and thats it!

If you read further the Quran form (62) to the verse (111) then you will surly find that this verse didn't means so what is being taking by non muslims.

(Lo! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians and Sabaeans saba'at whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and does right surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve

 

[summia]

i don't want all the wemon of the world dressed in black top to bottom with just there eyes showing.

Okay you have your will, don't wear! you don't cover your woman, any force?

what bondage!

Boundage, you feel. But for us it is pure and happiness to get the will of Allah Almighty. Yeah! I'm woman and I happily cover myself. I'm proud to be God's obedient.

 

[Popeyesays]

Okay you have your will, don't wear! you don't cover your woman, any force?


Boundage, you feel. But for us it is pure and happiness to get the will of Allah Almighty. Yeah! I'm woman and I happily cover myself. I'm proud to be God's obedient.

The Qur'an requires "modest dress" and tells women to cover their legs and bosom.

The Tuareg men also cover their faces. So I would submit the covering of the face is cultural, not religious.

Who tells women to cover their faces?

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

Oh I hear ya momma. I just don't understand why Muslims are incredibly obtuse. Any position that is the slightest variance from their own is automatically discredited... simply because the say so.

Oh, I can't lay that at the feet of all or even most Muslims I've tried to converse with, Dearest Frost Giant.

Consider there are other theists we speak with who have difficulties seeing other points of view as well.

It helps to get out and speak to a wider circle of people. Learning can happen that way.

I just get a tad frustrated when I'm repeatedly a target for the nonlearning. Patience is called for, naturally, as others have been patient with me in the past and will no doubt be patient with me in the future.

But there does seem to be a point where one concludes no dialogue is possible at this time. In some limited cases, I'm very nearly there. Perhaps next month will be different. Or next year.

Ohhhh yes. I notice my 3 questions were completely ignored. Oddly, I thought I made some rather good points. Strange, eh? Evidently my comments are not worthy of note... or perhaps they simply don't know how to handle someone like me, lol.

It's irritating to have made an on topic remark and have it totally ignored in favor of criticizing something irrelevant and off topic, but it happens at times.

I was chatting with mom about this thread and I blurted out in frustration, "Muslims just don't seem to understand the concept of 'free thinking'." It would seem to be an alien concept to them.

You might want to chat with Khalila (urp, jamaesi again) about that.

And many Muslims I know in real life, we have very fine dialogue, but then they live here and communication barriers are rarely in play, which may help.

For example, I know that no one sees their reality the way I see mine, but the kicker is that NO ONE sees their reality exactly the same way and ANY OTHER PERSON does.

Very true. Which is why I've never taken umbrage that you would not seek to hop onto any of the world's organized religions. If it makes no sense to you I can't imagine why you would pretend otherwise.

SO, to say that the much vaunted "religion of peace" is suitable for all mankind is absolutely rediculous. Why I say this is that virtually all Muslims sound the same as if they have no capacity for any original thought of their own. That, is truly a sad state of affairs... and they outrageously wonder what we think is wrong with Islam. Two words: Psychological straightjacket.

That I would dispute, Ymir. There is a great deal of decent Muslim scholarship available and Muslims I can talk with, but just as with er, fundamentalists of other sorts, it's too easy to just do cut and paste jobs from questionable apologetics sites to try and "prove" things and then wonder why those not singing in the same choir think they're out of tune.

You see that in the evolution vs. creation debates all the time. Truly, it's a waste of electrons.

Such is life.

 

[Booko]

Relax, Relax Booko!

Please do not insult me and then follow up by patronizing me.

Perhaps we can talk about something else another time.

 

[S.Z (Muslim)]

How so? If my book is scientifically accurate then it means I know what God wants for us, or at least that's the logic you're using regarding the Qu'ran.



Why I believe in Muhammad as a Prophet but am not a Muslim.

Look, your book can NOW be scientifically accurate, but at those times there wqas no such thing as science.

 

[S.Z (Muslim)]

Notice how you said, "your life." It is my life, not God's. I own my life and I can take it if I wish. Also, to call every suicide a cowardly act is an ignorant statement which would no doubt be hurtful to many. However, that is neither here nor there.

What I wanted to know is where in Islam is this doctrine taught?

Hmm, well we Muslims submit everything to Allah, everything. Allah gave us this life, so it is his. If it was not for him, we would not even exist.

 

[S.Z (Muslim)]

I think, MZ, that you're problem is primarily inexperience with English.

When you invite people to tell you what they perceive to be problems in Islam so that you can clear up their "misunderstandings" and see what is so obvious to yourself it comes off as very pompous and conceited.

We are as capable as you of understanding your arguments and accepting or dismissing them, or arguing with them. However your attitude is that we are all to stupid to understand your simple logic.

As i said, this is because you are dealing with people in a language that isnot your primary language.

Please consider what I am saying, perhaps it will clear up your misconceptions as to how clear you are being.

regards,
Scott

I do not think you people are stupid, I think all of you, are smart as me, I once again am trying to prove the Quran right by facts.

 

[Popeyesays]

Look, your book can NOW be scientifically accurate, but at those times there wqas no such thing as science.

Science was invented by the Pagan Greeks long before Christianity.

Regards,
Scott

 

[S.Z (Muslim)]

I am sorry people, I will start a new thread, this thread is way too confusing, too much people asking. I am going to start another thread with the same title. I am not backing away from this argument.

 

[storm2020]

Thank you Booko! I found your post very helpful and insightful. I think Islam is unfortunately a very misunderstood religion and only when it is in its extremist form does it make the media.

 

[moegypt]

well if ur God did create everything then he also created cancer, viruses and death. Why even create theses misfortunes? unless he likes to see people suffer. He might as well just take away the free will and so no one will suffer the misfortunes.

What about babies born of HIV? did ur God also created the HIV babies?

another thing is that a divine being should not have the slightest desire to kill any living being either by fire or flood or any other means.

OK, firstly you talk about cancer, viruses and death and i will ask you a small question.. What is your information about environment balancing?? Do you know what will happen if this balance changes?? Do you know what will happen if there is no death, you will not find a place to put your legs in!there is no other earth for all these people because people are weak and god is the power. he made this earth for u.

You will find between 1000000 people who can see..you will find one blind!..Why you see only what you think it is bad.. God gives the blind more power in other senses..so he can ear better than you as example.

you know.. without GOD wisdom.. you will not find a place to live in!!

 

[moegypt]

Thank you Booko! I found your post very helpful and insightful. I think Islam is unfortunately a very misunderstood religion and only when it is in its extremist form does it make the media.

i respect your point of view

but please tell me.. what you didn't understand in islam.. islam is obvious like the sun in the sky??

 

[vandervalley]

OK, firstly you talk about cancer, viruses and death and i will ask you a small question.. What is your information about environment balancing?? Do you know what will happen if this balance changes?? Do you know what will happen if there is no death, you will not find a place to put your legs in!there is no other earth for all these people because people are weak and god is the power. he made this earth for u.

You will find between 1000000 people who can see..you will find one blind!..Why you see only what you think it is bad.. God gives the blind more power in other senses..so he can ear better than you as example.

you know.. without GOD wisdom.. you will not find a place to live in!!

Yes I really appreciate your responses and I would thank you more if you can eradicate all my doubts ablout Islam.

So how does God choose who to receive misfortunes? If you say that God give misfortunes to those who don't believe in him; then why some babies got HIV? Those babies didn't do nothing wrong

 

[Sahar]

I am sorry people, I will start a new thread, this thread is way too confusing, too much people asking. I am going to start another thread with the same title. I am not backing away from this argument.

What difference will this make?
Why don't you, for instance, start a thread on Islam Forum where you can address some of the points that have been posed in this thread and thus you can do it in an organized way?
BTW, welcome to the forum and Ramadan Kareem!