What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[summia]

You really don't see what he's trying to say

I said, I appologize! plz
I'm upset by this furom now.

 

[YmirGF]

I said, I appologize! plz
I'm upset by this furom now.

Summia, I have tried and tried to reason with you. I have spent a great deal of time patiently explaining my position and I get so very little back to work with. I don't try to win debates. I simply don't. Buck up sweetheart.

Besides that how can you possibly be upset by the words of strangers thousands of miles from your home? Why should you even give the slightest care? Do you think you have failed at sharing your wealth of knowledge of Islam? Beside I don't want your apology because that tells me that you never meant what you said and I have a difficult time believing that. Apology rejected simply because no apology was ever warranted.

 

[summia]

Do you think you have failed at sharing your wealth of knowledge of Islam? .

No I'm not Alhamdollaiah (every praise is for Allah, I'm just a humble slave of Him)
Is appologizing to other is failure? is it not humble?
So, bad of your morality!

 

[anders]

I don't feel like reading 17 pages of this thread, so

Did you mean Islam per se, Islam today, or Muslims?

Islam itself? Nothing wrong.

Islam today? There are some practices that seem pretty unIslamic, but I don't blame for that on Islam itself.

Muslims? Well, all religions seem to have their difficult fringe elements, so I don't suppose Islam would be any different.

 

[YmirGF]

No I'm not Alhamdollaiah (every praise is for Allah, I'm just a humble slave of Him)
Is appologizing to other is failure? is it not humble?
So, bad of your morality!

Summia... you have done NOTHING to apologize for. That is what I am saying. It is only humble when it is genuine, when a person who is in error wishes to show contrition. When someone uses an apology when one is not required it is often intended as a closing to an argument because they have run out of desire to speak further. In English, it is like saying "Good day" to someone in a dismissive manner. Is this how you intended your apology?

What precisely does morality have to do with this?

 

[Scott1]

scott, bro we've been down this road before. you are already well aware i was raised up a cathloic.

Sorry... I had forgotten that...

the bible says (the example i gave before) over and over again, yet because church fat cats say this is fine therefore you believe it is fine. the fact of the matter is agian it is not for the bible says other wise.

Actually no..... you just don't understand what you are talking about... the Bible forbids idol worship.... we don't WORSHIP idols... pretty clear, I think.

... and "fat cats".... please show some respect.... I've not refered in a derrogatory way to any Muslim leaders or teachers in this way, I would hope you can try to be a little bit more pleasant.

further, an unbroken line of teachings????? are you serious????? the vatican is well known for changing the teachings to appease the people, especially in modern times. remember that old stance on divorce, and how they changed their minds on it because folks were leaving the flock in droves?

Yep... I'm serious.... I'm talking about the essential dogmas of the church... things not essential to salvation may, and have been changed and adapted over time... that's the God given beauty of having a "Vatican" to continually shepard us until Christ returns. Divorce is still forbidden.... and if AGAIN you want a education on this Catholic teaching, start another thread.

this is a trend happening to them all, and you should keep this in mind.

I will do that.

Peace,
S

 

[summia]

Summia... you have done NOTHING to apologize for. That is what I am saying. It is only humble when it is genuine, when a person who is in error wishes to show contrition. When someone uses an apology when one is not required it is often intended as a closing to an argument because they have run out of desire to speak further. In English, it is like saying "Good day" to someone in a dismissive manner. Is this how you intended your apology?

I wasn't indifferent wihile apologizing, I should not debate with you because I'm a scriptural reader. And it is foolishness to clearfy a person who don't believe in scriputres. This how I appologize!

What precisely does morality have to do with this?

because you took my appologize in the wrong sense!

 

[summia]

Summia... you have done NOTHING to apologize for. That is what I am saying. ?

Before i intend to leave this forum, can i ask to you:

What anger you have with Islam? and why? (plz without interepting others, plz I want to ask from Paul!)

 

[Popeyesays]

Summia,

Please don't leave.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Dear Paul, you are sending posts all over the thread claiming that all the Muslims couldn't answer your questions and you forgot that *maybe* some muslims just didn't got the chance to read this long thread. lol.

Question #2: Why is it that Muslim writers tend to use "circular logic" in their arguments?

This is plain generalization. Do you mean all the Muslims? I hate labeling, by the way.

Question #3: Is this circular reasoning supposed to be "logical thinking" or do Muslims in fact have a different sense of logic than do kafir's?

Refer to my answer above.

What I mean here is do Muslims simply think differently from non-muslims?

Yes, and no. If you mean the type of thinking referring to God so yes, they are different, and if you mean *thinking* and *logic* in general so i believe that all human beings are the same in this matter.

Question #4: Is it not true that it simply does not matter what one thinks of Islam, as the real question is if one believe in the authenticity of Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] and if he spoke literally for "God"?

The reason for this is that Muhammed [pbuh] was either making it up as he went (hence the incredibly long time it took to write such a thin volume) or in fact he was directed by "God" to warn mankind of their impending doom if they ignored his words.

What I mean is that only fools will attack Islamic dogma when the real prize is the Prophet himself. If you believe him, then there is only one choice, and that is very clear. If one does not believe he was an authentic prophet of God, then there too, one makes a very clear choice. In essence, it is all very cut and dried. Yes or No... as attitudes towards Islam itself are beside the point because if one does not accept the prophethood of Muhammed [pbuh], conjecture about Islam itself is moot.

Sometimes, it DOES matter, if i understood your questions correctly, because some non-muslims believed that Prophet Mohammed is the a real prophet of God, but they just couldn't change their faith and embrace Islam for various reasons.

 

[YmirGF]

Before i intend to leave this forum, can i ask to you:

What anger you have with Islam? and why? (plz without interepting others, plz I want to ask from Paul!)

1. Summia, please do NOT leave the forum. I have told you several times that I quite like you. Ease up now, ok.
2. I have no anger whatsoever towards Islam, period. I have grave reservations on several aspects of Islam that quite frankly no one here is qualified to answer.
3. I have no anger against Islam, but I take exception to people with little spiritual experience coming on as "wise sages" because they have read a little book a few hundred times and yet know precious little of other faiths or spirituality in general.
4. I know it hurts you to read this, but I also have extreme reservation about the authority of Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]. In a phrase, "I don't buy it."

You misundertand my very DIRECT manner of speaking. I am "free spirit" as it were Summia and I simply do not need the support of others to verify my own conviction. I have grave reservations about people who know very little about God coming off as if they did know a great deal. That is both arrogant and pretentious. I am not saying you are arrogant and pretentious, but rather your training and the training that many many Muslims receive gives them some very unrealistic views of humanity, the world and the nature of reality.

Summia, look at the state of the Ummah today. It is in a shambles. Didn't someone long ago talk about this? Sure Islam is growing like a well watered weed, but I rather suspect many "reverts" are doing so for the wrong reasons. It is similar to how the Americans will vote for the Democrats in 2008. They will do so because they hate the Republicans and George W. Bush so much, not because they adore or love the Democrats. You have to admit that hatred of one party is not a great reason to vote for the other party. Do you understand? I suspect that many flock to Islam because they are tired of being pushed around by various corrupt government all over the world and see Islam as their only hope.

Aside from this I also have grave doubts as to the validity of Prophet Muhammed's {pbuh} visions. I have had enough visions of my own over the last 34 years to have a fair amount of expertise in this area. Certainly enough to render an opinion. To my view, his vision do not "add up" as we say in English nor do his own reactions TO his visions. It would be impossible for you to understand my argument and reasons unless you too had had hundreds of visions of your own. I hope you understand.

Love ya and stick around, I'm really not so bad, once you get used to me that is.


Your friend in the Light,
Paul

 

[summia]

1. Summia, please do NOT leave the forum. I have told you several times that I quite like you. Ease up now, ok.

I'm in peace, Alhamdollilah (every praise is for Allah Almighty)

2. I have no anger whatsoever towards Islam, period. I have grave reservations on several aspects of Islam that quite frankly no one here is qualified to answer.

What is your level of qualification? what you expect from us? thats what I'm trying to say at many post and you didn't reply.
I'm the girl is strictly against the fun in a religion, because religion is our salvation its not for to test as fun. sorry, I made direct words but I'm so!

3. I have no anger against Islam, but I take exception to people with little spiritual experience coming on as "wise sages" because they have read a little book a few hundred times and yet know precious little of other faiths or spirituality in general.

i have never seen you testing your experience for other religions (Christianity or Hinduism etc etc) You only used to come at Islamic post, to test your exception? why? I need to know, I'm not strict here Paul! I'm freindly asking you, coz i don't know sweet words in english. Why only at islamic post?

4. I know it hurts you to read this, but I also have extreme reservation about the authority of Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]. In a phrase, "I don't buy it."

Have any one forced you here to buy it?

You misundertand my very DIRECT manner of speaking. I am "free spirit" as it were Summia and I simply do not need the support of others to verify my own conviction.

Thats nice!but one must take care of other free spirits, you can't say why you believe so because I am free spirit. Other poeple are also free spirits.

I have grave reservations about people who know very little about God coming off as if they did know a great deal. That is both arrogant and pretentious. I am not saying you are arrogant and pretentious, but rather your training and the training that many many Muslims receive gives them some very unrealistic views of humanity, the world and the nature of reality.

I and my fellow S.K have posted the threads (misconceptions about Islam & whats wrong with Islam) then why you don't in discuss of only those points that you feel are lack in Islam (And I think its our Big heart that we are tolarating your comments about Islam).
YOu always come and first you used to point out the muslim who created the thread and you just used to put "Muhmmad pbuh was not able to trusted" why? we need to know reason. when you will discuss with us "Why?" the we can peacefully talk with you. it shows by your behavior that you are not in favour of listening to us.

 

[~Amin~]

1.
Sure Islam is growing like a well watered weed,
IT IS HE WHO SENT HIS MESSENGER WITH GUIDANCE
AND THE RELIGION OF TRUTH TO MENIFEST IT OVER
ALL RELIGION. AND SUFFICIENT IS GOD AS WITNESS. QURAN48:28.
DID YOU REALIZE SIR YOUR WORDS
WERE FORETOLD IN THE QURAN,
AND ALSO THIS SHOWS THE VISIONS
OF THE PROPHET TO BE TRUE,
I TOLD YOU GODS USING YOU
TO SHOW THE QURAN TRULLY
BELONGS TO HIM.
Aside from this I also have grave doubts as to the validity of Prophet Muhammed's {pbuh} visions. I have had enough visions of my own over the last 34 years to have a fair amount of expertise in this area. Certainly enough to render an opinion. To my view, his vision do not "add up" as we say in English nor do his own reactions TO his visions.

 

[summia]

Summia, look at the state of the Ummah today. It is in a shambles. Didn't someone long ago talk about this? Sure Islam is growing like a well watered weed, but I rather suspect many "reverts" are doing so for the wrong reasons. It is similar to how the Americans will vote for the Democrats in 2008. They will do so because they hate the Republicans and George W. Bush so much, not because they adore or love the Democrats. You have to admit that hatred of one party is not a great reason to vote for the other party. Do you understand?

Yes, I can! and i totally agreed with you. But my believe is this can be remove, if we adore or love the Democrates. This can only be done if we take care of each other while removing all the differences. even Ummah of muslim can be better if it leave its differences. Only such distortion occure when we used to pull the legs of others to win ourselves. And I'm against it!
I also agree with you at the state of Ummah, it is shamble! but if Ummah is shamble then don't try to more shamble it, at least you can shake muslims to return them towards their source. Because it is when a person born to a muslim family and unaware of his own religion, not only in muslims I have seen many christains and others folks claiming themselves religion but infact they ever never used to know their source during their lives.

1. Summia, please do NOT leave the forum. I have told you several times that I quite like you. Ease up now, ok.

I'm in peace, Alhamdollilah (every praise is for Allah Almighty)

2. I have no anger whatsoever towards Islam, period. I have grave reservations on several aspects of Islam that quite frankly no one here is qualified to answer.

What is your level of qualification? what you expect from us? thats what I'm trying to say at many post and you didn't reply.
I'm the girl is strictly against the fun in a religion, because religion is our salvation its not for to test as fun. sorry, I made direct words but I'm so!

3. I have no anger against Islam, but I take exception to people with little spiritual experience coming on as "wise sages" because they have read a little book a few hundred times and yet know precious little of other faiths or spirituality in general.

i have never seen you testing your experience for other religions (Christianity or Hinduism etc etc) You only used to come at Islamic post, to test your exception? why? I need to know, I'm not strict here Paul! I'm freindly asking you, coz i don't know sweet words in english. Why only at islamic post?

4. I know it hurts you to read this, but I also have extreme reservation about the authority of Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]. In a phrase, "I don't buy it."

Have any one here forced you here to buy it?

You misundertand my very DIRECT manner of speaking. I am "free spirit" as it were Summia and I simply do not need the support of others to verify my own conviction.

Thats nice!but one must take care of other free spirits, you can't say why you believe so because I am free spirit. Other poeple are also free spirits.

I have grave reservations about people who know very little about God coming off as if they did know a great deal. That is both arrogant and pretentious. I am not saying you are arrogant and pretentious, but rather your training and the training that many many Muslims receive gives them some very unrealistic views of humanity, the world and the nature of reality.

I and my fellow S.K have posted the threads (misconceptions about Islam & whats wrong with Islam) then why you don't in discuss of only those points that you feel are lack in Islam (And I think its our Big heart that we are tolarating your comments about Islam).
YOu always come and first you used to point out the muslim who created the thread and you just used to put "Muhmmad pbuh was not able to trusted" why? we need to know reason. when you will discuss with us "Why?" the we can peacefully talk with you. it shows by your behavior that you are not i favour of listening to us.

I suspect that many flock to Islam because they are tired of being pushed around by various corrupt government all over the world and see Islam as their only hope.

Yeah! you are right, even I disagree with Pakistani Gov't. but if you used to know about Islam while focusing Muslims (and only those muslims who are unaware) then it is not Islam. Why not one must heed at those muslims who made greate contributions all over the world.

 

[summia]

Aside from this I also have grave doubts as to the validity of Prophet Muhammed's {pbuh} visions. I have had enough visions of my own over the last 34 years to have a fair amount of expertise in this area. Certainly enough to render an opinion. To my view, his vision do not "add up" as we say in English nor do his own reactions TO his visions.

Which vision you are talking about? Look! my respected fellow paul!
Thats what I said, plz discuss those visions that you think are not perfect in sight of Muhammad pbuh, and put your own vision for which you looks like real.
Look! Dear fellow, if you will put only "muhammad had a lack of vision" thenhow can we explain you? you must talk about tose visions!

It would be impossible for you to understand my argument and reasons unless you too had had hundreds of visions of your own. I hope you understand.

Yes, I can understand, sometimes your visions are very difficult to understand, but not impossible!

Love ya and stick around, I'm really not so bad, once you get used to me that is.

Your friend in the Light,
Paul

Yeah! you are not!

Your Muslim fellow in Peace,
Summia Azhar

 

[YmirGF]

DID YOU REALIZE SIR YOUR WORDS
WERE FORETOLD IN THE QURAN, AND ALSO THIS SHOWS THE VISIONS OF THE PROPHET TO BE TRUE, I TOLD YOU GODS USING YOU TO SHOW THE QURAN TRULLY BELONGS TO HIM.

What can I say Amin, lol. If MY words were foretold in the Qur'an then you might want to sit up and pay attention to what I am saying. Just a thought.

If, as you say, "God is using" me to further reveal the Qur'an belongs to him, again, you might want to sit up and listen. Perhaps there is something here for YOU to learn?

 

[summia]

What can I say Amin, lol. If MY words were foretold in the Qur'an then you might want to sit up and pay attention to what I am saying. Just a thought.

If, as you say, "God is using" me to further reveal the Qur'an belongs to him, again, you might want to sit up and listen. Perhaps there is something here for YOU to learn?[/quote]

Thats over confidence Paul!
you must sit and listen Quran because it is giving authenticity of what you say...

 

[summia]

1

but rather your training and the training that many many Muslims receive gives them some very unrealistic views of humanity, the world and the nature of reality.


l

I think brother Cordoba is explaining islam very butifully, if you visited his thread,
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/47202-living-islam-2.html

And my sister Peace, explaining Islam with full devotion,
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/46911-prophet-muhammad-know-him-better-9.html

 

[YmirGF]

I'm in peace, Alhamdollilah (every praise is for Allah Almighty).

Whew. That was close. Sorry Summia, people don't get away from RF that easily, hehe. Ask my dear friend, The Truth and the always intelligent FullyVeiled Muslima.

What is your level of qualification?

How to answer this question? I am a fully self-realized being Summia. You might want to read up on the term to see what I am saying. I don't like to talk about it much because it is not possible for unenlightened people to appreciate what "self-realization" means.

What you expect from us?

Nothing really. I try not to have preconceived notions about reality and simply react to what is in front of me without thoughts of "good" or "bad".

thats what I'm trying to say at many post and you didn't reply.

Sorry, if you said this in one of our numerous discussions I simply thought you were making a rhetorical remark that did not require a response. My apologies.

I'm the girl is strictly against the fun in a religion, because religion is our salvation its not for to test as fun. sorry, I made direct words but I'm so!

So, you are saying that "religion" is deadly serious business? No fun? Do you understand that your words echo the words of Ayatolla Khomeini of Iran? He too claimed that religion was serious business and went on to say that life itself should not be a persuit of "fun". To my thinking, that is a very, very sad way to perceive reality. You know that could be one of the major stumbling blocks between the so-called Western world and the Muslim world as "having fun" is usually seen as being silly and frivolous.

I have pointed out in many posts, NOT to you, if I remember correctly that "bliss" is a by-product of unfettered consciousness. "Bliss" is the natural state of the human animal's mind when it is free from "misconceptions" and "preconceptions". This is my experience Summia, so I don't see a need to supply further proof. Over 3 decades of life in this state has pretty well convinced me of its validity.

On the outside, you might find me, in person, to be quite silly. I am always making lighthearted jokes but you have to understand that there is almost always a serious side to what I am joking about. In almost all situations I can think of something amusing to reflect on. I agree that one must be serious about their persuit into the realms of spirituality, but again, once one makes progress, one gains great joy or bliss. It is simply a natural by-product of "the process".

i have never seen you testing your experience for other religions (Christianity or Hinduism etc etc).

That is not true. I have given the Baha's a run for their money a few times. Likewise I have skewered Christians on a number of occaisions. I also like to poke fun at Zen Buddhist from time to time. I thoroughly enjoy smacking Scientology to the ground. The simple fact is that you have not been on RF for very long. Stick around, no one escapes the tar of my brush.

You only used to come at Islamic post, to test your exception?

Well, perhaps you are just lucky. I do also write extensively in other areas as well.

Why?

I guess I am trying to be helpful. It is my nature. You might think I have behaved very badly, but I am helping to make you a better Muslim and able to converse in a much more intelligent way IN ENGLISH. That is a mercy, of a sorts. I also do so out of compassion, but again, you may well have misundestood my intent.

I need to know, I'm not strict here Paul! I'm freindly asking you, coz i don't know sweet words in english. Why only at islamic post?

See above. As well, I simply dispute many things that Muslims say. Do you understand me when I say that many Muslims sound like trained parrots? I don't mean to be hurtful here, but I have spoken to so many Muslim's now that it is like I am talking to the same person each time. They continually make the same logic errors and almost always use the same debate techniques (which are generally speak quite poor). Oddly, many Muslims I have debated with and discussed topics with never see the error in their logic even when it is clearly pointed out for them. It is downright weird, Summia.

Have any one forced you here to buy it?

Technically speaking, no. Of course not. However, that does not mean that the message is not trotted out relentlessly as defacto reality. How to say it? Virtually all aspects of the life of Muhammed smack of what we call in English, a white wash. It is as if every aspect of his life is written in a way to make him look absolutely incredible. Another expression we have in English is: IF it looks too good to be true; it probably is(n't true). For the sake of clarity, it means if something looks too good to be true then it is almost assured that it is NOT true.

Thats nice!but one must take care of other free spirits, you can't say why you believe so because I am free spirit. Other poeple are also free spirits.

I suppose I should have said "free thinker" and by that I mean I form my opinions and belief structures based on my direct experience -- regardless if that experience is physical or non-physical in nature.

I and my fellow S.K have posted the threads (misconceptions about Islam & whats wrong with Islam) then why you don't in discuss of only those points that you feel are lack in Islam (And I think its our Big heart that we are tolarating your comments about Islam).

I have posted in that thread Summia. Right off the bat my first post to S.K. pointed out that he asked us to tell him "What is wrong with Islam". Then he stated that he was here to clear up our "misconceptions". He stated rather boldy that there is nothing wrong with Islam at all. In other words, it was our viewpoints that were wrong or is one sees anything wrong with Islam then that person is obviously in error. That, to say the least, is not terribly realistic.

You always come and first you used to point out the muslim who created the thread and you just used to put "Muhmmad pbuh was not able to trusted".

Well I don't use those words but I supposed that is what I am saying in a manner of speaking. How to put this delicately Summia and I do NOT mean any offense. To my perspective, it is likely that Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] suffered from various mental illnesses. His insistance on a literal Hellfire for example is not a good sign... and he did talk alot about the Hellfires. You see it as a great warning, done out of compassion. I see it as the ravings of a lunatic. There is no way to put it kindly... so I hope you will forgive me.

why? we need to know reason. when you will discuss with us "Why?" the we can peacefully talk with you. it shows by your behavior that you are not in favour of listening to us.

That is not true, Summia. I listen VERY carefully to what ALL Muslims say. Why do you think I ask you such difficult questions? I am a master of reading between the lines, and part of the difficulty that Muslims have with me is that they do not how to react to my odd perspective. Muslims are much more comfortable dealing with straight foreward questions about Islamic dogma. It sort of blows them off the tracks when questioners do not stick to the "script". I hope you understand.

Love ya,
Your friend in the Light,

Paul

 

[summia]

Whew. That was close. Sorry Summia, people don't get away from RF that easily, hehe. Ask my dear friend, The Truth and the always intelligent FullyVeiled Muslima.

Its my matter to leave or not, and I don't need to ask any one.

I am a fully self-realized being Summia. .

Sir, if i permit to say one thing plz don't mind...
It is not self realization, it is over confidence at experience, whoever more then experienced persons have passed in history, (Phylosopher, orator, Legislators etc) They didn't used to be over confidence at their expereince. Perhapes they were more expereinced, you are just in 60s.

So, you are saying that "religion" is deadly serious business? No fun?

Have I used the word "Business" ?its your addition Sir. Thats why you fail to understand Islam.

Do you understand that your words echo the words of Ayatolla Khomeini of Iran?

And you over self-realization matches with the end of Pharaoh. Who was over confident and self realizer. A tiny stream used to swallow him in a bit!

He too claimed that religion was serious business and went on to say that life itself should not be a persuit of "fun".

Taking the religion seriously means "not mock at religion". I like light jokes, but I don't use those jokes who hurt any one.
Sir, Sir plzzzzzz
I didn't use the word "Business" its your addition.

To my thinking, that is a very, very sad way to perceive reality.

Smile is peace in life, but "A Big grin" at any religion is rather himiliating one, and I don't like such Grins. Try to understand me!