What if we accepted each other's religion?

[LuisDantas]

Buddha is a part of our belief.

A construct that you call Buddha is.

I believe in Buddha and would not give up that believe for my life. Buddha taught so much wisdom. My favourite quote of Buddha is from the Dhammapadda Thousands where He says. 'If a man were to conquer ten times ten thousand men, he is the true conquerer who conquers his own self.". It's things like these I have been taught to love by the Baha'is. Truth is everywhere not just in one religion. It is in science too.

Bahais may like Buddha, but it is painfully apparent that they do not have much of a functional understanding of what he taught.

Or else they would not attempt to claim allegiance to his teachings, at direct contradiction with their own emphatically theistic doctrine.

 

[LuisDantas]

We don't practise paganism as we believe in one God but we have good friends who practise paganism. No offense was intended.

The sad thing is, I believe in your sincerity here.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Bahai standards are of the highest calling for man to overcome his animal nature and become a true spiritual being as he was meant to be........

"He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is assuredly of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity... And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty." - Baha'u'llah

No, thanks. That is life-hating and self-hating.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A construct that you call Buddha is.



Bahais may like Buddha, but it is painfully apparent that they do not have much of a functional understanding of what he taught.

Or else they would not attempt to claim allegiance to his teachings, at direct contradiction with their own emphatically theistic doctrine.

We believe that Buddha originally taught the oneness of God but that many of His teachings have been lost. Buddha referred to the 5 disappearances of His doctrine to be replaced with a 'counterfeit doctrine'

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn16.13

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits102.htm

This is a teaching we believe refers to God that was not lost.

""There is, O monks, an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. "Since, O monks, there is an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, and unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed."

 

[loverofhumanity]

The sad thing is, I believe in your sincerity here.

Thanks!

 

[LuisDantas]

We believe that Buddha originally taught the oneness of God but that many of His teachings have been lost.

Which is to say, you entitle yourselves to say that you understand our religion better than us who do practice and teach it.

That is not honest, not respectful, and not very respectable either.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thanks!

Don't thank me. Not for thinking such a thing of you.

 

[arthra]

There is a reference that probably should be included in the discussion:

http://bahai-library.com/momen_encyclopedia_buddhism

Moojan Momen the author of the piece makes it fairly clear:

"The relationship between the Bahá'í Faith and Buddhism can be described in terms of a sharing of religious concepts and of encounters between individuals and communities"

We don't tell Buddhists what they should believe or that as Baha'is we understand Buddhism "better" than Buddhists.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which is to say, you entitle yourselves to say that you understand our religion better than us who do practice and teach it.

That is not honest, not respectful, and not very respectable either.

We believe that Buddha speaks of Baha'u'llah as that Buddha here... If Buddha keeps His Promise I don't see how that can be considered dishonest or disrespectful as He Himself stated this, so when that Buddha comes those who accept Him are being loyal and faithful to Buddha and very respectful.

And the Blessed One replied: "I am not the first Buddha who came upon earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious, knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you. He will preach his religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax, and glorious at the goal, in the spirit and in the letter. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure; such as I now proclaim."

 

[loverofhumanity]

There is a reference that probably should be included in the discussion:

http://bahai-library.com/momen_encyclopedia_buddhism

Moojan Momen the author of the piece makes it fairly clear:

"The relationship between the Bahá'í Faith and Buddhism can be described in terms of a sharing of religious concepts and of encounters between individuals and communities"

We don't tell Buddhists what they should believe or that as Baha'is we understand Buddhism "better" than Buddhists.

Yes that's true. We only understand it differently but we do not say we know it better.

 

[Ingledsva]

The ground breaking, cutting edge teachings are not the laws but the spirit of the Baha'is. They have a force with them capable of transforming the world. The spirit of oneness is so beautiful it's irresistible even by the Faith's avowed enemies. Don't ever come in too close contact with this Faith or its teachings and people or you'll find it irresistible. I fought. And struggled not to join it. I opposed the Bahai Faith with all my might and yet I couldn't resist it's spirit of love and oneness that many are yet to experience. That was 40 years ago. I still to this day never agree that I am worthy to be in this Faith. This kind of spirit can easily stop a hundred wars and unite a hundred world's. It's only a matter of time.

You are correct that they have many good teachings. I've been to many Baha'i potluck-debates. And I've read many of the writings.

The problem is that they claim Bahá’u’lláh to be the divine Messenger sent for this age, - but retain patriarchal religion, patriarchal ideas, - exclusionary language, and practices.

Perhaps God has actually sent us a PAGAN as the new divine Messenger for this age. This would make far more sense in today's world, than exclusionary archaic patriarchy.

I don't think a real God or Gods, - He, She, They, would be so petty as to dictate how people - worship the Divine, or practice Spirituality.

In fact I doubt He, She, They, would even care if people are Spiritual Atheists.

*

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are correct that they have many good teachings. I've been to many Baha'i potluck-debates. And I've read many of the writings.

The problem is that they claim Bahá’u’lláh to be the divine Messenger sent for this age, - but retain patriarchal religion, patriarchal ideas, - exclusionary language, and practices.

Perhaps God has actually sent us a PAGAN as the new divine Messenger for this age. This would make far more sense in today's world, than exclusionary archaic patriarchy.

I don't think a real God or Gods, - He, She, They, would be so petty as to dictate how people - worship the Divine, or practice Spirituality.

In fact I doubt He, She, They, would even care if people are Spiritual Atheists.

*

The thing I love about Bahai is that I am never a stranger even amongst people I've never met before. I meet many people I've never met before and it's as if we've known each other and been best friends all our lives. It's this spirit of loving and warm acceptance I want the world to catch. I don't care about who believes what but if people can catch this spirit and learn to trust each other again this world will become a war free beautiful,place. But so much greed, corruption and politics pushes us against each other. Whoever I'm with I feel that they are my friends and it's the coming together and celebrating our oneness and working together to help others that is the essence of Bahai. I know we can all be as one family because we are proving it to each other. Try not to worry about the claim of Baha'u'llah. You never have to ever accept it. But always come and share your views and feel welcome amongst us.

The thing that annoyed me most about the Baha'is when I met them 40 years ago was I had to ask them about this religion. They seemed to want to leave it for me as a personal thing to find out for myself. They just kept welcoming me and wanted nothing in return. Wild horses couldn't keep me away from such selfless love.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's this spirit of loving and warm acceptance I want the world to catch. I don't care about who believes what but if people can catch this spirit and learn to trust each other again this world will become a war free beautiful,place.

If that's your aim, then you should know that this thread works to undermine it. A number of things you've posted in this thread create an impression that you're being less than honest. This does not create an atmosphere of trust.

The thing that annoyed me most about the Baha'is when I met them 40 years ago was I had to ask them about this religion. They seemed to want to leave it for me as a personal thing to find out for myself. They just kept welcoming me and wanted nothing in return. Wild horses couldn't keep me away from such selfless love.

If you appreciated that approach so much, why did you abandon it here? This thread is basically your sales pitch for the Bahai religion.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Post edited for clairity.



"Your" general statement not you personally.

My dogma (edit: example) in my faith stems from the stories my mother and have been telling me recently. I learned more about my geneology and because they tell me about my family, they are dogma to me. Little practices I learned have "common ways" to go about the method of that practice, thats dogma to me. I am religious because my spirituality is not just my interest and belief, it is my life.

I am an atheist. I am an animist. I am a Pagan.

I do practice dogma but I dont use (edit: the word) because its associated with christianity and rigit rituals. However, looking beyond the associations, stereotypes, and bias of christian religions, I realize my dogma, what lessons and practices life teaches me and how is not a bad word, and how I see the world. These dogmatic things make up my religion.

Dogma: I have a "a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true."

It does not need to be: god, man made rituals, people, and so forth.

Its a misconception that dogma is related to these things.

My principles are in my family and the earth teaches me.

So far I know on RF:

Many pagans here have principles from guides or examples (you can take out authority if that bothers you) you (personally) and others in their religious (whatever name you want to use; not my point) walk.

Many pagans (say atheists) have morals by which they follow. Maybe their principles are love for nature or maybe acceptance to many faiths and oneness.

Many pagans find their guides in the elements. Using the elements heavily in their practice. Very important ( I will say) instead of authority since that bothers people.

Many pagans believe in multiple gods/dess. No. They dont need to be an strict, father figure authority again stereotypically associated with abrahamic religions. They can be guides. They can be friends. The point is they have important roles in the practitioners lives and the examples they have and their life is dogma. Principles that practitioners choose to live by (emphazie: choose. Not all dogmatic religions force their beliefs on others)

I could go on.

The only religions I can think of that may not have dogma or principles is religious witchcraft, maybe.

Its not a nasty word. I will say principles laid down by a teacher, god, godess, self, others, spirits,family intead of authority (which could be anyone in anyway you define that authority in relation to yourself)

If its your religion. Your life. Its important. It holds authority in your life.

How is that wrong?

Take out abrahamic stereotypes and experiences and think of it objectively.

So wait, you were just speaking for yourself? From the way you worded your original post it sounded as though you were defining Paganism more broadly than just on a personal level.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If that's your aim, then you should know that this thread works to undermine it. A number of things you've posted in this thread create an impression that you're being less than honest. This does not create an atmosphere of trust.


If you appreciated that approach so much, why did you abandon it here? This thread is basically your sales pitch for the Bahai religion.

I don't know what you mean by dishonest as that is not my intention. I'm only telling the truth. Also abandon what? I'm not abandoning anything. I had connection issues where my tablet wouldn't connect for a few hours and I checked my isp and they're doing maintenance so I never got any notices there had been replies until just now. Sorry.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If that's your aim, then you should know that this thread works to undermine it. A number of things you've posted in this thread create an impression that you're being less than honest. This does not create an atmosphere of trust.


If you appreciated that approach so much, why did you abandon it here? This thread is basically your sales pitch for the Bahai religion.

The red dots are my area. I have not been receiving notifications. Please forgive me for that. If I'm not replying it's not me abandoning anyone. Also it's late and I have to sleep soon so again my apologies.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The red dots are my area. I have not been receiving notifications. Please forgive me for that. If I'm not replying it's not me abandoning anyone. Also it's late and I have to sleep soon so again my apologies.

You missed my point. I wasn't talking about you being absent from the thread.

What I was getting at was this: you described how you admired other Bahais who didn't push their religion on you, but here you are pushing your religion on people. You're taking the opposite approach that they did.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know what you mean by dishonest as that is not my intention. I'm only telling the truth.

You misrepresented this discussion: you claimed that a sales pitch for your religion was a discussion of universalism.

You misrepresented your religion: you claimed that you "accept others' religions", only to make it clear later that what you really do is accept aspects of others' religions, reject other aspects, and add your own doctrines to make a different religion.

Those are the big ones. I'm sure I could find other examples if I went through the thread post-by-post.

These tactics do not create an atmosphere of trust.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If that's your aim, then you should know that this thread works to undermine it. A number of things you've posted in this thread create an impression that you're being less than honest. This does not create an atmosphere of trust.


If you appreciated that approach so much, why did you abandon it here? This thread is basically your sales pitch for the Bahai religion.

Then I'm very sorry you feel that way because my intentions are world peace and world unity and an end to disputes and conflicts between religions and we can do that by being more tolerant of each other's beliefs.

Religious prejudice is one of the worst prejudices. It is the cause of wars and hatred. People can talk all they want to me about their religion. I don't mind at all. To have dialogue between faiths is of the utmost importance to have better understanding of each other.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

**​

Edit: Yes. I was speaking for myself.. If it seems like I am using generalizations in my posts, please ask for clarification. I hate using those qualifies as "most, many, some, imo" and things like that. People take what I say as if Im defining who they are. Also, from my impression the whole time I interacted in the Pagan forum, I have the impression that Im tolerated as a halfa pagan of some sort. Maybe because I dont take on the name? Maybe because Im not polytheistic (in regards to specifically deities)? I honestly dont know. Its left a bad taste in my mouth; and, I feel displaced. If I talk about Paganism, its from my perspective and my belief. If its an observation, I will say that.

So wait, you were just speaking for yourself? From the way you worded your original post it sounded as though you were defining Paganism more broadly than just on a personal level.

So far I know of RF, some people believe in gods, some are natualistic animist, some are just animalist, some are humanist who interact with mythological gods, some are specifically polytheistic, others are soft polytheistic, some rely heavily on the elements for their spiritual practice, others its mostly feeling.

This is blunt and clear. This is not my interpretation. I wont quote sense the threads will be too much to go through. Its all in the paganism forum.



Based on the above and the above only, I personally concluded that teh practices, morals, etc many pagans describe in their own faith is in my definition their dogma and religion.

They may disagree, of course. That does not mean I define who they are as a Pagan just my opinion of a very misinterpreted and misarpropriated word that without ex-cristians experiences may be seen more objectively that many faiths have dogma not just Abrahamic.

It doesnt mean I am wrong just because that is not the prefered word Pagans choose. I dont use it and I know what I practice has dogma in it too. As per the definition I posted.

Please read my post with an objective eye. There are no hidden meanings and no accusations.

**​