What is a work?

[Shermana]

Once again, the word "Debt" here is "Obligation" or "Due". Your belief is as if G-d holds it against you for doing good works. That's not at all what Paul is even saying. Once again, this view contradicts with Paul's other words such as Phillipians 2:12. He is saying basically what Jesus said about the Servant, to not expect reward for your work but as your base obligation.

What you are saying is that Jesus completely lied when he said you have to strive for the narrow gate, among other things, like

"You will be judged according to your works".

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So Jesus lied then? What part about "Strive for the narrow gate" isn't about works?

Jesus is the gate.

Did Paul lie too in Phillipians 2:12?

Of course not but it doesn't apply to works counting for salvation.

 

[yourgraceisenough]

Once again, the word "Debt" here is "Obligation".

What you are saying is that Jesus completely lied when he said you have to strive for the narrow gate, among other things.

no I am not saying Jesus lied. I am saying if you strive to do your best after being saved, well done you will be blessed...

if you strive to get your salvation you are in trouble because all are sinners and fall short of the mark...

we cannot get salvation by ourselves our good deeds will never be good enough...

thats why we need Jesus and the free gify of righteousness...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What is a work?

A work is-a where-a you go to make-a the money.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

according to the bible work is actually counted as debt by God....

Not a debt that pays for salvation.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What you are saying is that Jesus completely lied when he said you have to strive for the narrow gate, among other things, like

"You will be judged according to your works".

There are more than one kind of judgements.

 

[Shermana]

no I am not saying Jesus lied. I am saying if you strive to do your best after being saved, well done you will be blessed...

if you strive to get your salvation you are in trouble because all are sinners and fall short of the mark...

we cannot get salvation by ourselves our good deeds will never be good enough...

thats why we need Jesus and the free gify of righteousness...

Okay, go ahead and ignore the whole "obligation" thing. According to Paul, Salvation is something you have to work out. Even Jesus said your Salvation is something you have to work out. How presumptious to assume you are already saved. Are Catholics saved in your view? Are Mormons saved? Are JW's saved?

if you strive to get your salvation you are in trouble because all are sinners and fall short of the mark...

That's exactly the opposite of what Jesus says.

Why do you think he said "BE PERFECT"?

Do you think all who claim to believe in Jesus are "perfect" as he was talking about?

Who do you think the "Lukewarm" are?

 

[yourgraceisenough]

Okay, go ahead and ignore the whole "obligation" thing. According to Paul, Salvation is something you have to work out. Even Jesus said your Salvation is something you have to work out. How presumptious to assume you are already saved. Are Catholics saved in your view? Are Mormons saved? Are JW's saved?

That's exactly the opposite of what Jesus says.

Why do you think he said "BE PERFECT"?

Do you think all who claim to believe in Jesus are "perfect" as he was talking about?

we do have to work out our salvation in as much as we all come to the point of actuallt accepting Jesus in all different ways...

If we ever could be perfect why did God send Jesus? what was the point his sacrifice his blood was shed for nothing...

It is not by your works so none shall boast, it is not self righteousness it is the righteousness of Jesus that sets us free..

when we walked in sin we were slaves to sin everything we did was counted as sin but now we are slav es to righteousness everything is counted as righteousness not because of us but because of the sacrifice of Jesus at the cross...

 

[Shermana]

we do have to work out our salvation in as much as we all come to the point of actuallt accepting Jesus in all different ways...

What do you mean "accepting in all different ways" exactly? What are these different ways exactly?

If we ever could be perfect why did God send Jesus? what was the point his sacrifice his blood was shed for nothing...

So Jesus was wasting his breath when he said "Be perfect"?

It is not by your works so none shall boast, it is not self righteousness it is the righteousness of Jesus that sets us free..

Since this is the debate board, I will say that Ephesians not only contradicts with the rest of Paul's epistles, it is considered by 80% of all scholars to be Pseudipigraphic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Ephesians

Bible scholar Raymond E. Brown asserts that about 80% of critical scholarship judges that Paul did not write Ephesians,[5] while Perrin and Duling[6] say that of six authoritative scholarly references, "four of the six decide for pseudonymity, and the other two (PCB and JBC) recognize the difficulties in maintaining Pauline authorship. Indeed, the difficulties are insurmountable.

You're welcome to believe it's legitimate, but it not only clashes with all Paul's other writings, it's not considered a legitimate work by near unanimous concensus, like the Pastoral Epistles. For the sake of debate, your case here is relying on a dubious work that almost all scholars (even among Christians) consider to be bogus. So your argument based on Ephesians 2:8 is only valid if you can prove that it's not a "Deutero" Pauline epistle as its classified as. Otherwise, it completely clashes with everything else he wrote. It was originally called "Laodecians". I should make a whole thread on this, it gets tiring when whole arguments are based on this dubious epistle as if the other epistles don't matter.

when we walked in sin we were slaves to sin everything we did was counted as sin but now we are slav es to righteousness everything is counted as righteousness not because of us but because of the sacrifice of Jesus at the cross...

Slave to righteousness? Explain what that means. Everything is counted as righteousnes? What does that mean?

 

[yourgraceisenough]

What do you mean "accepting in all different ways" exactly? What are these different ways exactly?

some accept Jesus after some amazing miracle a healing perhaps some just slowly learn understand and accept, we work out our own path, salvation, to God..
So Jesus was wasting his breath when he said "Be perfect"?
Since this is the debate board, I will say that Ephesians not only contradicts with the rest of Paul's epistles, it is considered by 80% of all scholars to be Pseudipigraphic. You're welcome to believe it's legitimate, but it not only clashes with all Paul's other writings, it's not considered a legitimate work by near unanimous concensus, like the Pastoral Epistles. For the sake of debate, your case here is relying on a dubious work that almost all scholars (even among Christians) consider to be bogus. So your argument based on Ephesians 2:8 is only valid if you can prove that it's not a "Deutero" Pauline epistle as its classified as. Otherwise, it completely clashes with everything else he wrote. It was originally called "Laodecians". I should make a whole thread on this, it gets tiring when whole arguments are based on this dubious epistle as if the other epistles don't matter.

most of my quotes are from Romans but I don't want to argue what scholars say belongs and what doesn't

Slave to righteousness? Explain what that means. Everything is counted as righteousnes? What does that mean?

when we where sinners, before we were saved the bible refers to us as slaves to sin, we were bound by sin and God saw that sin and it seperated us from God, when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we become slaves to righteousness, we are bound to rigtheousness not because of us but because of the righteousness off Jesus and from then on God sees us as righteous and there is no longer a seperation from God..

 

[Shermana]

some accept Jesus after some amazing miracle a healing perhaps some just slowly learn understand and accept, we work out our own path, salvation, to God..

Ummm, that makes absolutely no sense, especially in relevance and context to the original subject. Those are not "Different ways" of accepting Jesus, neither are they demonstrative of how to "Strive"for the narrow gate".

most of my quotes are from Romans but I don't want to argue what scholars say belongs and what doesn't

You were quoting from Epehsians 2:8-9, were you not? The "boast" thing thus must be thrown out since it's most likely not by Paul. Your arguments from Romans were based on bad interpretations of the word "Debt" which actually means "obligation" and "Due" which you apparently dropped the subject once this was pointed out. Have you actually read what Jesus said about the Servants in the field?

So you are saying that if you accept Jesus as your Savior, you can murder and steal and rape and pillage and commit adultery and fornicate and such and still be called Righteous? That totally conflicts with Hebrews to say the least.

 

[yourgraceisenough]

Ummm, that makes absolutely no sense, especially in relevance and context to the original subject. Those are not "Different ways" of accepting Jesus, neither are they demonstrative of how to "Strive"for the narrow gate".

yes it does, we find different ways to come to the point of realising God is real in Pauls case it was the damascus road...
You were quoting from Epehsians 2:8-9, were you not? The "boast" thing thus must be thrown out since it's most likely not by Paul. Your arguments from Romans were based on bad interpretations of the word "Debt" which actually means "obligation" and "Due" which you apparently dropped the subject once this was pointed out. Have you actually read what Jesus said about the Servants in the field?

one was ephesians yes but most of it is Romans and it means debt, even if it means obligation it amounts to the same thing, you heap up more obligations by your own work as opposed to trusting on Jesus, if you prefer the word due, the more you work the more work is required of you, if you trust in Christ the debt is paid in full..

So you are saying that if you accept Jesus as your Savior, you can murder and steal and rape and pillage and commit adultery and fornicate and such and still be called Righteous? That totally conflicts with Hebrews to say the least.

yes you could but why would you throw God's love back at him...

why did God send Jesus if we could earn our own salvation, just ask yourself that??

by the way perfect can mean complete or whole or mature it doesn't have to me without flaws as that is impossible for man...

 

[Shermana]

yes it does, we find different ways to come to the point of realising God is real in Pauls case it was the damascus road...

That's not at all the context of the original question. So in this change of subject, what kind of "Different ways" can a MODERN Christian accept Jesus? As in one that doesn't live in the old days which all your examples stem from? Your example of Paul's conversion involves an alleged Supernatural vision. Not exactly something most alleged "Christians" have.

You apparently ignored what I said about the "Servant in the field" and the meaning of "obligation", you are OBLIGATED to do good works, that's why your works are not counted as a favor, but as a BARE MINIMUM. That's the meaning of what Paul meant. Otherwise, you can throw out everything Paul says about good behavior. Which is quite common for Christians to do, to throw out everything else that contradicts with their conclusion as if their interpretation of a single verse trumps everything else, including what Jesus says. Even Paul would disapprove of such mangling (and ignoring the rest of) his words.

G-d sent Jesus to be the GUilt Offering. Why did Jesus give so many teachings and commands if all you have to do is "believe" that you are saved by him? What's the point of the Epistle to the Hebrews? Why bother actually doing what Jesus says to do?

So what do you suppose Jesus meant by "Be perfect".

yes you could but why would you throw God's love back at him...

Your view that Christians are allowed to steal and kill and murder and fornicate and rape as they want and still be saved goes against even what Paul said. But I suppose this is mainstream Post-Lutheran doctrine for a reason. Your answer of "Why would you throw G-d's love back at him" is basically a cop out. What's the penalty if you do throw his love back at him? Nothing?

 

[yourgraceisenough]

That's not at all the context of the original question. So in this change of subject, what kind of "Different ways" can a MODERN Christian accept Jesus? As in one that doesn't live in the old days which all your examples stem from? Your example of Paul's conversion involves an alleged Supernatural vision. Not exactly something most alleged "Christians" have.

You apparently ignored what I said about the "Servant in the field" and the meaning of "obligation", you are OBLIGATED to do good works, that's why your works are not counted as a favor, but as a BARE MINIMUM. That's the meaning of what Paul meant. Otherwise, you can throw out everything Paul says about good behavior. Which is quite common for Christians to do, to throw out everything else that contradicts with their conclusion as if their interpretation of a single verse trumps everything else, including what Jesus says. Even Paul would disapprove of such mangling (and ignoring the rest of) his words.

So what do you suppose Jesus meant by "Be perfect".

We are not obligated to do good works, we do them because we want to because of the amazing love we have been shown, the parable of the servant who is called to the king to repay his huge debt and then is let off, this is a demonstration to us of the great debt that Jesus paid for us, if we realise the debt is paid and act accordingly we are blessed and thankful, if we do not realise our debt is paid we run off and try to get the money we owe from somewhere else...

Jesus has paid our debt to God in full for every past present and future sin, we have to just walk in the freedom that the blood bought sacrifice has given us...

 

[Shermana]

Well, I appreciate you demonstrating your ability to completely ignore context, textual exegesis, questions, and people's arguments. Very representative of Antinomian Grace-faith "Christians".

I wonder who you think the Luke warm are.

 

[yourgraceisenough]

Well, I appreciate you demonstrating your ability to completely ignore context, textual exegesis, questions, and people's arguments. Very representative of Antinomian Grace-faith "Christians".

I wonder who you think the Luke warm are.

I have avoided no questions at all, I have not ignored context or anything else, all I have done is challenged your concept of salvation and how it is gained...

by the way why did God send Jesus ??

 

[waitasec]

Belief is STILL not a Biblical work.

iow, belief is not a part of the real world...

 

[yourgraceisenough]

iow, belief is not a part of the real world...

of course it is we all believe in something....

 

[Shermana]

I have avoided no questions at all, I have not ignored context or anything else, all I have done is challenged your concept of salvation and how it is gained...

by the way why did God send Jesus ??

You avoided no questions? Wow. Like no one can see the post I made and your responses. Do I need to repeat that post? I know you think you're allowed to lie and say whatever you want and still be saved, but come on, anyone can scroll up and see what I said and see your response, try harder than that! You can't just blatantly lie about your response to a post that's on the same page.

G-d sent Jesus to be the Guilt Offering and to teach people how to act apart from the way that the Pharisees had corrupted the Torah with their artificial rulings. Do you even know the Messianic prophecies to begin with? Very few "Christians" do.

 

[waitasec]

of course it is we all believe in something....

as far as a "biblical belief",
it doesn't apply to reality.