What the New Testament says about God is true

[TransmutingSoul]

And how does any religion prove it is "The Truth"?

The Message is the proof. So the question really is, what does it take for people to embrace the Truth?

God has not made it mandatory, but a bounty for people to share the truth, it is not their ultimate responsibility to prove it.

In sharing the truth there is a bounty given to individuals to do it with wisdom. Yet it is also offers, opposition to that Message, is what spreads it faster? Go figure that!

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet it is also offeres, opposition to that Message, is what spreads it faster? Go figure that!

If only the opposition knew that.

“No one casts stones at a tree without fruit. No one tries to extinguish a lamp without light! …….

And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 102-106

 

[Spice]

The Message is the proof. So the question really is, what does it take for people to embrace the Truth?

I'd have to say the fruit of the message is the truth. What "fruit" suits an individual's taste so that they sustain their spirit with it, without going sour, is a good message planted.

If one's faith, their religious or non-religious belief, nourishes their desire and feeds their ability to do the will of God, then it is the right fruit for them, IMB. And IMO, that is the basis for a global religion for humankind's future -- to embrace our differences as God's will, and as a very good thing.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Message is the proof.

Hey Tony.

Your statement above is circular reasoning. Or if you disagree, please explain why.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'd have to say the fruit of the message is the truth. What "fruit" suits an individual's taste so that they sustain their spirit with it, without going sour, is a good message planted.

If one's faith, their religious or non-religious belief, nourishes their desire and feeds their ability to do the will of God, then it is the right fruit for them, IMB. And IMO, that is the basis for a global religion for humankind's future -- to embrace our differences as God's will, and as a very good thing.

Thank you Spice, yes indeed as the ability to embrace that truth is inherent in the Message.
aaInwoupd.offer a thought, we are not able to fully emulate and practice the fruits, if we are not aware of the requirements in the message for our age.

Examples that expand our capacity of Faith.


"It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, Lawh-i-Maqsúd

"He Who is your Lord, the All-Merciful, cherisheth in His heart the desire of beholding the entire human race as one soul and one body." Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established." Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CXXXI

Christians, Hindu, Muslims Buddhist, Zoroastrians have all built Individual transformation, building families, villages, towns, cities and Nations. We now have to build a Global Civilization and that is the Messenge of Baha’u’llah.

I see that message contains and introduction to the unity of humanity with other peoples on other planets, throughout known creation.

Unity will be required before the technology required to do this, will be gifted to humanity.

Our current vision is greatly limited by the Old world order material mindset.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hey Tony.

Your statement above is circular reasoning. Or if you disagree, please explain why.

I acknowledge what you offer, this is what Baha'u'llah has offered below, I see it has to be circular, as we are finding the ultimate truth from the source of truth.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

The Greatest proof of God, the Messengers

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So we are left with that Word as the source of Truth, and the written history of the Messengers.

From the dust we come to the dust we return, it is all circular, all creation is circular. The planets in orbit, the sun rising and setting in circles, the seasons etc etc.

Stands ro reason that God's Message reflects everything we can find in this world, every scientific discovery we make, all leads us back to the source of truth.

Baha'u'llah quotes a traditional from Imam Ali.

"Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form When within thee the universe is folded?"

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I acknowledge what you offer, this is what Baha'u'llah has offered, I see it has to be circular, as we are finding the ultimate truth from the source of truth.

Right. It is quite common for religious people to appeal to their religious text, and say that their text comes from the divine, and that we know it is divine because the text says so, that is circular reasoning. It doesn't matter if they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Bahai.

I think it would be far more honest for people to say, "I cannot prove that my text is divine; it's just something I take on faith." That sort of person shows integrity. Or at least, better logic.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right. It is quite common for religious people to appeal to their religious text, and say that their text comes from the divine, and that we know it is divine because the text says so, that is circular reasoning. It doesn't matter if they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Bahai.

Yes, I know that is circular reasoning. I have known that for a long time, and I learned that from atheists on forums.

I think it would be far more honest for people to say, "I cannot prove that my text is divine; it's just something I take on faith." That sort of person shows integrity. Or at least, better logic.

That is what I say.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, I know that is circular reasoning. I have known that for a long time, and I learned that from atheists on forums.

Yes, I have learned a lot from atheists as well. Even though I disagree with them about God, as a group they have put a lot more effort into understanding logic. It's the sort of thing that makes these kinds of forums so awesome.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Message is the proof. So the question really is, what does it take for people to embrace the Truth?

God has not made it mandatory, but a bounty for people to share the truth, it is not their ultimate responsibility to prove it.

In sharing the truth there is a bounty given to individuals to do it with wisdom. Yet it is also offers, opposition to that Message, is what spreads it faster? Go figure that!

Regards Tony

Thinking of the Bible's rather detailed accounts of events, I am moved to believe the Bible over the opinions and claimed other inspired utterances.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Message is the proof. So the question really is, what does it take for people to embrace the Truth?

Except... some religions are false. So, we have the religion of the ancient Egyptians. I've never read it, but they had the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Is the message in that book the truth?

Then let's take a religion that Baha'is believe is a true religion from God, Christianity... What is the message of Christianity? How does that message prove it's true?

Oh, and the OP says the what the New Testament says about God is true. But it doesn't say what the New Testament says about God. So, only using the New Testament, what does it say about God? And I don't mean just his supposed attributes. Like God is all loving or all knowing. That's too easy and too vague.

What does it say that God does? Does he forgive sinners? What does a person need to do to get God to forgive them? According to the New Testament. Does God heal the sick and raise the dead? Did God speak from heaven? Will he cast people into hell?

Because I think the New Testament says that God does do those things. But the God that is talked about in the Baha'i writings, doesn't do those things. So, are we really talking about the same God?

And, actually, if I had a choice between the two, the Baha'i version of God is a lot easier going then that God in the New Testament. I think I would pick him. That other God is too wrathful.

But that's just going by what is written in the New Testament. How do we really if the message given in it is true?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Right. It is quite common for religious people to appeal to their religious text, and say that their text comes from the divine, and that we know it is divine because the text says so, that is circular reasoning. It doesn't matter if they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Bahai.

I think it would be far more honest for people to say, "I cannot prove that my text is divine; it's just something I take on faith." That sort of person shows integrity. Or at least, better logic.

I would offer faith, to be a faith built on rock, must be able to be proved to each individual, before it can be taken as Truth in Faith.

Faith without real proof becomes misguided and many evil acts perpetrated by men, are the result of basing ones faith not in truth, but misguided nature and nurture.

Quick thought as an Example.

Jesus showed us the Example of true faith in the teaching of turning the other cheek. True faith is built on the evidence that Jesus sacraficed his life for Such principles, and reflected in those that practice it.

Now if men choose to be Christian and then choose not to turn the other cheek and then say their cause is divine, that is not supported by the given evidence.

The bounty of a rational mind is that each individual has the exact same chance to look at the provided evidence and proofs and make informed decisions. This is why truth is relative for all of us and not Absolute. The Messengers are the source of Absolute Truth.

I see it would be dishonest for me to say there is no proof, especially when God says this is my proof. God also says take it or leave it. (In my words)

Regards Tony

 

[YoursTrue]

Except... some religions are false. So, we have the religion of the ancient Egyptians. I've never read it, but they had the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Is the message in that book the truth?

Then let's take a religion that Baha'is believe is a true religion from God, Christianity... What is the message of Christianity? How does that message prove it's true?

Oh, and the OP says the what the New Testament says about God is true. But it doesn't say what the New Testament says about God. So, only using the New Testament, what does it say about God? And I don't mean just his supposed attributes. Like God is all loving or all knowing. That's too easy and too vague.

What does it say that God does? Does he forgive sinners? What does a person need to do to get God to forgive them? According to the New Testament. Does God heal the sick and raise the dead? Did God speak from heaven? Will he cast people into hell?

Because I think the New Testament says that God does do those things. But the God that is talked about in the Baha'i writings, doesn't do those things. So, are we really talking about the same God?

And, actually, if I had a choice between the two, the Baha'i version of God is a lot easier going then that God in the New Testament. I think I would pick him. That other God is too wrathful.

But that's just going by what is written in the New Testament. How do we really if the message given in it is true?

Speaking of God's "wrath," when God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, what "wrath" was expressed if they did? Burning conscious torment forever in some concoction of hell? No, of course not. The consequence for doing what God told them not to do was ... death.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thinking of the Bible's rather detailed accounts of events, I am moved to believe the Bible over the opinions and claimed other inspired utterances.

There are other Holy Writings that give detailed accounts.

Foe a person to make such a comment, they would be offeeing they are not aware of the other detailed accounts.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Except... some religions are false. So, we have the religion of the ancient Egyptians. I've never read it, but they had the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Is the message in that book the truth?

This reflects the wisdom noted in the Bible, the requirements for us to test the Prophets. How can we do that, without proof or evidence from them?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then let's take a religion that Baha'is believe is a true religion from God, Christianity... What is the message of Christianity? How does that message prove it's true?

To know and Love God, to live a virtuous and moral life, to serve each other with Love.

How to we prove the Bible is True, practice what Jesus offered, pick up the cross and follow Him.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Christians, Hindu, Muslims Buddhist, Zoroastrians have all built Individual transformation, building families, villages, towns, cities and Nations. We now have to build a Global Civilization and that is the Messenge of Baha’u’llah.

That is a Baha'i teaching I heard way back when I first learned about the Baha'i Faith. But I don't believe it's true.

Now first off, is there an official quote that it's based on? Because here is the way it was told to me... that the first manifestation brought individual unity. The next one expanded it to the whole family. Then the next one brought a message that unified a whole village... then a city... then a nations... And now, the Baha'i message is here to bring global unity.

But whole empires had a religion. There was complete unity... except it was forced on the people. And some times the Emperor was a God.

I don't think it ever went by village or city. It was a whole people and culture had their beliefs. And, by today's standards, most all of those religions and their Gods are considered false.

Even so-called true religions, like Christianity, unified a large chunk of the world.... until it shattered into a bunch of competing sects. But while it was basically just one religion under the Pope in Rome it brought lots of people together. Only trouble is... by what Baha'is believe to be true, that form of Christianity, the "universal" church, taught things that are false. Like Jesus is God, along with the Father and Holy Spirit. Yet, they brought unity to a big part of the world.

It seems like any "truth" will work if the people are made to believe it. Without force, why would any large group of people believe the same thing? And a lot of times that "force" came from that cultures make believe God. If the people didn't obey that God, bad things were going to happen. And that make believe God used his priests to be his enforcers.

Now wait? If that God was make believe, then he didn't really tell his priests to enforce anything. So, where did the Gods come from? Hmmm? Invisible, all powerful Gods that nobody can see or prove to be real? But people either choose to obey them or are faced to obey them.

Anyway, that's my generalization of how the progression of Gods and their religions happened. I suspect you'd disagree with it.

And here's the Baha'i quote...

In his letter of 11 March, 1936, published under the title, “The Unfoldment of World Civilization”, Shoghi Effendi outlined a thrilling vision of the future of humankind, “a world civilization such as no mortal eye hath ever beheld or human mind conceived.”​

​

“Unification of the whole of mankind is the hall-mark of the stage which human society is now approaching,” he wrote. “Unity of family, of tribe, of city-state, and nation have been successively attempted and fully established. World unity is the goal towards which a harassed humanity is striving.”​

 

[YoursTrue]

There are other Holy Writings that give detailed accounts.

Foe a person to make such a comment, they would be offeeing they are not aware of the other detailed accounts.

Regards Tony

As I said, the extraordinary details in the holy scriptures demonstrate to me that I don't need to compare the veracity of them with other detailed writings of a different origin. Matthew 24:24 says,
"For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones."

 

[Spice]

Our current vision is greatly limited by the Old world order material mindset.

I admire the Baha'i vision for the future, but I believe all paths of faith should concentrate on the present.

The old world order, as you refer to it, will always be the foundation and you can't build upon a foundation cracking and sinking, no matter how much you want to see a new structure. Perhaps rather than building a bridge, it's time to help support the load, to work with the strengths still holding on, and connecting the new in small, continuous "works."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Except... some religions are false.

I don't really see it so black and white. It's not true/false, but how true and how false. No religion is perfect, but certainly some are closer to the truth than others. And similarly, even bad religions have some truth in them.