What the New Testament says about God is true

[TransmutingSoul]

But why do that? We are trusting the words of whoever wrote those stories.

Right, and without good reason to trust. That's why you can't use stories like Jesus' virgin birth as evidence of anything.

I can trust them as Baha'u'llah quoted from the Bible, said that it would not be just of God to give a Testament to humanity via Jesus and then not leave the Message for prosperity. Both Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi confirmed they are a sure spiritual Guide

Also there is a significant and proven transition of the scriptures starting only decades after Christ walked the earth, with the many stories still freshly shared amongst beleivers. It also may be found that earlier records may have been transcribed, but on materials that did not stand the test of time.

When we start searching ancient sites in earnest, which I say will happen, we do not know what is yet to be found.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I can trust them as Baha'u'llah quoted from the Bible,

When I was a little girl, I believed everything my mother taught me. And given that everyone in my religious community said the same things, it all seemed very cut and dry.

But that was not the case. There were things my mom and our faith community believed that simply weren't true.

All this to say, that your Baha'u'llah may have been a very good man, and a very insightful man, and a very spiritual man, but he is still only a man, and he will make mistakes.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When I was a little girl, I believed everything my mother taught me. And given that everyone in my religious community said the same things, it all seemed very cut and dry.

But that was not the case. There were things my mom and our faith community believed that simply weren't true.

All this to say, that your Baha'u'llah may have been a very good mean, and a very insightful man, and a very spiritual man, but he is still only a man, and he will make mistakes.

I would offer Baha'u'llah was Infallible, more than a man, A Manifestation of God.

To call Baha'u'llah an ordinary mann, one must first investigate to see if the comparrison is that of an ordinary man.

That is what I see and I will offer this to read, if you so choose to, from Baha'u'llah about the twin station of a Messenger. It starts off that there is no direct tie between God and Man.

"...And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

So we may see a man like us, but it will take an investigation to determine if they are more than a Man, and Apostle.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

I would ask a question, did Jesus give no proof? I would offer the valid proof he offered was his person, his life and the Message.

Jesus did give proof, and so did God... if we are going to believe the gospels.

Of course Jesus gave proof. He did it all the time, because he did not expect people to just believe his words, or that he was just a good man. He forgave sin, and in order to prove it, he also healed the body

And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”
Mark 2:1-12

He proved himself constantly
Christ raises Lazarus

Christ performed healing miracles all the time. It's the reason the people flocked to him. He forgave sin and healed the sick and uplifted the broken and the lost with words that have changed the course of human history.

"Come to me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

I think we have become so accustomed to the teachings of Jesus that we forget how revolutionary they were. He taught us to pray to God as a personal Father. The Sermon on the Mount, that we all now take for granted, was absolutely revolutionary at the time.

To those that asked for signs, he said no proof will be provided.

The context of this passage is that God does not dance to satisfy the insincere curiosity of dilettantes and scoffers and those who demand he demonstrate his power

“But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, and saying:

‘We played the flute for you,
And you did not dance;
We mourned to you,
And you did not lament.’

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”
Matthew 11: 16-18

"But he replied to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves a sign. Yet no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah, because just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea creature for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.”
Matt 12:38-40

It is the Baha'i who say openly they want to break down other faiths who offer no proof. Baha'i who quote from the New Testament should take time to actually read it in context instead of cherry-picking quotes to suit their agenda.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is the Baha'i who say openly they want to break down other faiths who offer no proof. Baha'i who quote from the New Testament should take time to actually read it in context instead of cherry-picking quotes to suit their agenda.

As a Baha'i will defend and support all God given Faiths and offer they all offer the same proof. You should go back and read what was offered.

You wil realise you have greatly misunderstood what I was saying.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

As a Baha'i will defend and support all God given Faiths and offer they all offer the same proof. You should go back and read what was offered.

You wil realise you have greatly misunderstood what I was saying.

Regards Tony

I do understand what you are saying. You are trying to use the NT and Jesus to justify that the Bahai offer no 'signs' except the good character of their founder. That is incorrect. It misleads others.

Do you deny saying earlier that in order to build a new bridge, the old structure would first have to be broken down?

Please understand that if Baha'i would try to avoid cherry-picking the NT for quotes to suit their agenda, there would be no problem or pushback from me. I would be content just to read the posts and listen to their ideas.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do understand what you are saying. You are trying to use the NT and Jesus to justify that the Bahai offer no 'signs' except the good character of their founder. That is incorrect. It misleads others.

Do you deny saying earlier that in order to build a new bridge, the old structure would first have to be broken down?

Please understand that if Baha'i would try to avoid cherry-picking the NT for quotes to suit their agenda, there would be no problem or pushback from me. I would be content just to read the posts and listen to their ideas.

No, you still do not understand and I am not sharing anything else.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

No, you still do not understand and I am not sharing anything else.

Regards Tony

All good. But where Baha'i continue to misrepresent the NT Jesus by flipping around isolated sentences out of context, I will continue to point out the deception and encourage them to brush-up on the NT by actually reading it in context instead of cherry-picking. Context is very important in all writing.

People who know the scriptures will always debate finer points, but that's not the same as cherry-picking into the scriptures of another faith, regardless of what their own faith leaders tell them about it

 

[TransmutingSoul]

People who know the scriptures well will always debate finer points, but that's not the same as cherry-picking into the scriptures of another faith, regardless of what their own faith leaders tell them about it

You do realise that no one knew the Tanakh better than the Jews. It is also known by them, that Jesus does does not fulfil prophecy as written in the Tanakh. The Jews have pointed out that deception.

Which passages did the Christians cherry pick to offer otherwise?

Note how that compares with your approach to the Baha'i?

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

You do realise that no one knew the Tanakh better than the Jews. It is also known by them, that Jesus does does not fulfil prophecy as written in the Tanakh. The Jews have pointed out that deception

I agree that Jesus does not meet the requirements of the warrior Messiah expected by the Jews, for the Jewish people alone.

I personally believe Jesus Christ stands on his own with no need to reference another religion. Salvator mundi, the saviour of the world. The incarnation, life and death and resurrection of the Christ are complete, whether or not he is regarded as the expected Jewish Messiah, or any other messenger or prophet, past or future.

I believe that Muslims, including Shia Muslims do accept Jesus as the expected Jewish Messiah?

 

[Sumadji]

But I will add that the Christians who do and did seek justifications in the Old Testament, often quite laboured justifications, are well versed in the OT and do study the full writings. They are unlikely to believe it's a waste of time to read it?

 

[CG Didymus]

And how does any religion prove it is "The Truth"?

The Message is the proof.

There's lots of "messages" in the different religions. Are all the contradictory "messages" in the different religions proof of the religion? Something don't sound right.

Thinking of the Bible's rather detailed accounts of events, I am moved to believe the Bible over the opinions and claimed other inspired utterances.

Yes, there's detailed accounts of several events. One of them, the resurrection, Baha'is claim did not happened as written.

There are other Holy Writings that give detailed accounts.

And are they accurate and true?

Okay, What do we know from the Upanishads and Vedas? What do we know from the Talmud?

Thanks IndigoChild. I was thinking more about descriptions of events. But with your answer is does show that most all religions have similarities in what they teach. But did those teachings come from the same God as Baha'is claim?

 

[CG Didymus]

As a Baha'i will defend and support all God given Faiths and offer they all offer the same proof.

Okay, sure... But Baha'u'llah, as far as I know, didn't mention Hinduism or Buddhism. How can a Baha'i "defend" the Baha'i claim that the Abrahamic God of the Bible is the same God that Baha'is claim "revealed" Hinduism and Buddhism?

Baha'is have to go through a lot of contortions to do it. Much easier to just say that all ancient people had their ideas about the Gods. But they were just their ideas. Since then, people have changed their concepts and ideas about the Gods. But who knows what is true and what if false about those ideas, because none of them can be proven.

But Baha'is pretend they can be proven. And the number one proof is that their prophets said that all religions came from the same one true God.

And then they go on to say that the Hindu Gods aren't real, and that Jesus is not God. And why aren't those concepts real? Could it be because Baha'is believe that people made them up? Yet, the concepts of the "real" God those aren't made up. They are true because???

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would offer Baha'u'llah was Infallible, more than a man, A Manifestation of God.

I do understand that this is your belief. And I'm not trying to convince you to give it up. I'm only sharing that it is not my belief, and why I do not believe it. I don't think there is any such thing as a man who is more than a man.

 

[CG Didymus]

I agree that Jesus does not meet the requirements of the warrior Messiah expected by the Jews, for the Jewish people alone.

But for the Baha'is to be correct... The Bible needs to have prophecies about Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Did Jews have four "Messiahs" that they were expecting? And did Christians have three "return of Christs"?

I have no doubt can find the four Messiahs from the Hebrew Bible. And I know they use the "Three Woes" from the Book of Revelation to show that Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were predicted. But really? When did a "Woe" become a manifestation? Abdul Baha finds a way.

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.”44 The first woe was the advent of the Apostle of God, Muḥammad the son of ‘Abdu’lláh, peace be upon Him. The second woe was that of the Báb, upon Him be glory and praise. The third woe is the great Day of the advent of the Lord of Hosts and the revelation of the promised Beauty. The explanation of this matter is provided in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.”45 It is therefore evident then that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is upon the heedless, the sinners, and the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the Day of God, and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.​

​

It makes perfect sense to Baha'is. But where else in the entire NT is a "woe" made into a manifestation.

Whenever we see the word "woe" in the New Testament, then it is always a translation of the Greek word "ouai". This Greek word "ouai" is used 47 times in the New Testament: 41 times in 33 verses it is translated as "woe", and six times in three verses it is translated as "alas".​

​

Those are the only times "woe" and "alas" appear in the New Testament. So let’s look at the meaning of this Greek word, and then see why the translators translated it as "alas" in six places.​

​

The Greek word "ouai" is used in the following three ways:​

​

1) It is used to express a denunciation; i.e. it is used to pronounce someone or something as blameworthy and evil.​

​

2) It is used to express a severe calamity, a severe distress or affliction.​

​

3) It is used to express great grief.​

 

[CG Didymus]

I would offer Baha'u'llah was Infallible, more than a man, A Manifestation of God.

I do understand that this is your belief. And I'm not trying to convince you to give it up. I'm only sharing that it is not my belief, and why I do not believe it. I don't think there is any such thing as a man who is more than a man.

My argument with the Baha'is about this is that it makes Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses all infallible also. They are all claimed to be "manifestations of God".

There is no definitive list of Manifestations of God, but Baháʼu'lláh and ʻAbdu'l-Bahá referred to several personages as Manifestations; they include: Zoroaster, Krishna, Gautama Buddha, all the Jewish prophets, Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb, and ultimately Baháʼu'lláh.​

​

It becomes an important part of their belief in "progressive" revelation... That the one true God sent different manifestations at different times to different places to help people reach their next stage of development. Kind of sounds true. And it's true enough for Baha'is. I just don't see it.

Now if they said that religious thought has "evolved" over time... And people went from believing in several Gods to one God, then that, to me, would be closer. But a progression? I don't think so. But what do I know. Their information came from an infallible source.

 

[Sumadji]

But for the Baha'is to be correct... The Bible needs to have prophecies about Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Did Jews have four "Messiahs" that they were expecting? And did Christians have three "return of Christs"?

I have no doubt can find the four Messiahs from the Hebrew Bible. And I know they use the "Three Woes" from the Book of Revelation to show that Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were predicted. But really? When did a "Woe" become a manifestation? Abdul Baha finds a way.

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.”44 The first woe was the advent of the Apostle of God, Muḥammad the son of ‘Abdu’lláh, peace be upon Him. The second woe was that of the Báb, upon Him be glory and praise. The third woe is the great Day of the advent of the Lord of Hosts and the revelation of the promised Beauty. The explanation of this matter is provided in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.”45 It is therefore evident then that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is upon the heedless, the sinners, and the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the Day of God, and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.​

​

It makes perfect sense to Baha'is. But where else in the entire NT is a "woe" made into a manifestation.

Whenever we see the word "woe" in the New Testament, then it is always a translation of the Greek word "ouai". This Greek word "ouai" is used 47 times in the New Testament: 41 times in 33 verses it is translated as "woe", and six times in three verses it is translated as "alas".​

​

Those are the only times "woe" and "alas" appear in the New Testament. So let’s look at the meaning of this Greek word, and then see why the translators translated it as "alas" in six places.​

​

The Greek word "ouai" is used in the following three ways:​

​

1) It is used to express a denunciation; i.e. it is used to pronounce someone or something as blameworthy and evil.​

​

2) It is used to express a severe calamity, a severe distress or affliction.​

​

3) It is used to express great grief.​

Of course it's true that Christians have abused Jews and Judaism for not accepting Jesus. The reason is that Jesus does not fit the Jewish template of the warrior Messiah come for theJews alone.

Instead Jesus comes as the suffering servant, which may fit the profile, but which is not relevant to the Messiah in Jewish scripture.

Is that a good reason for Bahá'ís to use the same approach to Christian scripture? To try to misuse Christian scripture to make Baha'u'llah equal to Jesus, and even superior to Jesus?

 

[Sumadji]

Bahá'í offer nothing that Jesus didn't say and do. They don't improve on Jesus. I'm not sure really what they do want to do? Except to be noticed?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I agree that Jesus does not meet the requirements of the warrior Messiah expected by the Jews, for the Jewish people alone.

I personally believe Jesus Christ stands on his own with no need to reference another religion. Salvator mundi, the saviour of the world. The incarnation, life and death and resurrection of the Christ are complete, whether or not he is regarded as the expected Jewish Messiah, or any other messenger or prophet, past or future.

I believe that Muslims, including Shia Muslims do accept Jesus as the expected Jewish Messiah?

All God's Messengers are One and every one of the Revelations that they have given stand on their own, as each is suited to the age it was given.

Jesus does not fulfil the end of ages expectations as recorded in the Tanakh, but Jesus is a Messiah, which means, just as Christ does, "Annointed One". Jesus was Annointed of God and does fulfil prophecy as noted in the Tanakh.

In prophecy in the Tanakh is also supported in the truth by God as given in the New Testament. They all contain prophecy supporting Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Excepting thr prophecies have been fulfilled is relative to one embracing the independent truth given by a Messenger. It is very rare that a person will except a Messenger by the use of prophecy only.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahá'í offer nothing that Jesus didn't say and do. They don't improve on Jesus. I'm not sure really what they do want to do? Except to be noticed?

It is a fulfillment of the promises given by Jesus, that the 'Spirit of Truth' would take what was given by Jesus Christ and show it unto us and also then guide them unto all truth.

God gives these Messages to enable us to note that there is but One God and give us the choice to be born from the flesh into the Spirit.

Regards Tony