What the New Testament says about God is true

[CG Didymus]

There are other Holy Writings that give detailed accounts.

Okay, What do we know from the Upanishads and Vedas? What do we know from the Talmud?

This reflects the wisdom noted in the Bible, the requirements for us to test the Prophets. How can we do that, without proof or evidence from them?

Hmmm? Weren't the person claiming to be a prophet killed if what they said didn't happen?

And "proof" and "evidence"? He is the proof? His message is the evidence? Well, that's just great for Baha'is. But the proof and the evidence for Christians is the Bible and the NT. And that takes them to a place a long ways away from what the Baha'is believe.

To know and Love God, to live a virtuous and moral life, to serve each other with Love.

How to we prove the Bible is True, practice what Jesus offered, pick up the cross and follow Him.

And that's it? That's the complete Christian message? Nothing about being hopelessly lost sinners, unable to get right with God? That only by accept the sacrifice Jesus made can we be forgiven. That we cannot and will not ever be able to be good enough to pay the penalty by our own good deeds. What we think of as "good deeds" are like filthy rags to God.

And there's more. Refuse Jesus and a person will be cast into hell along with Satan and his demons. And what is the Christian message about Satan? That he was the one that deceived Eve and got her to eat the forbidden fruit. And she got Adam to take a bite too. And that's when sin entered the world.

But there's some good stuff too. Like we all won't die. Some of the believers, the ones that are still alive when Jesus comes back will be taken up to meet him in the air. And that those that have died in Christ will rise up from the grave and be given new "glorified" bodies.

Ah, there's just so much. Most of which Baha'is don't mention. And even if they did, it would be to say how they don't believe it.

So, what's true about the Bible and the NT? Christians have their beliefs. Baha'is have theirs. And if we just take the Hebrew Bible and don't include the NT, then Jews have yet another.

But who has the true and correct interpretation? We all know. It's the Baha'is. Why? Because their prophet said so.

Fine. But that's the same claim everybody else makes. Their stuff is true. Their interpretations are true. And their proof? The Bible says so.

But I know. They are blind to the real truth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is a Baha'i teaching I heard way back when I first learned about the Baha'i Faith. But I don't believe it's true.

Your choice, go with what you decide, our choices have a way of being answered, be they right or wrong.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would offer faith, to be a faith built on rock, must be able to be proved to each individual, before it can be taken as Truth in Faith.

Before I reply, remember that we agree far more often than we disagree.

I'm not really clear what your meaning here is. It seems to be saying that before something is taken by faith to be the truth, it has to be proven. That makes no sense to me. If something is proven, accepting it isn't faith at all.

Jesus showed us the Example of true faith in the teaching of turning the other cheek.

I wish you had chosen some other example. Fair warning that I am about to go off on a tangent. LOL You see, I think the "turn the other cheek" teaching was one of the stupidest things Jesus ever allegedly said. Do you know what happens we don't defend ourselves? We become permanent victims, hit again and again.

It's a personal issue for me, because I was bullied pretty badly in junior high. My parents were the sort that said, "Don't you ever hit back--that makes you just as bad as them." Following this teaching set me up for years and years of bullying, bullying which scarred my heart and still affects me to this day.

Now here is what I taught my own kids. "Don't you ever start a fight. If you start one, you'll be scrubbing the kitchen floor with a toothbrush. But if someone else starts a fight with you, or starts a fight with an innocent, fight back, and fight to win." I even got them Kung Fu classes so that they would have the necessary skills.

There were times both my children had to fight, either in self defense or defending an innocent classmate. And of course the administration stupidly suspended them. When that happened, I would take them out to a movie or for ice cream, and tell them I'm proud that they stood up to a bully.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm? Weren't the person claiming to be a prophet killed if what they said didn't happen?

Where are the evidences of the 1000's of false Prophets, do they have a Book that still guide humanity, where is the impeccable story of their life?

If not there dead, gone and forgotten, just as the Bible offers.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Okay, What do we know from the Upanishads and Vedas?

Hmmm Googled a bit, and found these wonderful tidbits:
"In the house of the wise, the humble are welcome." Vedas
"You are what your deepest desire is. As your desire is, so is your will. As your will is, so is your deed. As your deed is, so is your destiny." Upanishads

What do we know from the Talmud?

Ah that's MY backyard!

"Who is wise? One who learns from every person." Pirkei Avot 4:1

I chose that one because it does seem to directly address why we should learn from religions other than our own, and read texts not our own. In fact, it inspired me to change my tagline.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Before I reply, remember that we agree far more often than we disagree.

I'm not really clear what your meaning here is. It seems to be saying that before something is taken by faith to be the truth, it has to be proven. That makes no sense to me. If something is proven, accepting it isn't faith at all.

Ha ha, I must appear to be a Terrier or a bulldog and not a mouse.

I would ask a question, did Jesus give no proof? I would offer the valid proof he offered was his person, his life and the Message.

To those that asked for signs, he said no proof will be provided.

Thus the proof is a logical and rational examination of the person, the life and the Message. If the person, the life and the Message is not proven to us, there can be no faith in the person or what is offered.

God does not manifest directly to us, it is like the Sun approaching earth, if it was to move just a fraction closer, life as we know it would cease ro exist. This is what Baha'u'llah uses as metephor foe why God manifests to us in a chosen human body, thus not to waste us away with the intensity of the light.

Now if we look at this topic, both the Bab and Baha'u'llah did reveal to selected beleivers the truth of this metephor, some did witness thwie true spiritual form, a couple could not take this Revelation and killed themselves. Baha'u'llah said he allowed that unlawful action as a proof to those that want assurance.

The wife of the Bab witnessed this from her husband, and it prepared Herr for what she would soon face at the hands of Islam.

I would love to have these discussions, I give a little more and just have to wait for the reaction to see if it can be further discussed.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmm Googled a bit, and found these wonderful tidbits:
"In the house of the wise, the humble are welcome." Vedas
"You are what your deepest desire is. As your desire is, so is your will. As your will is, so is your deed. As your deed is, so is your destiny."


Ah that's MY backyard!

"Who is wise? One who learns from every person." Pirkei Avot 4:1

I chose that one because it does seem to directly address why we should learn from religions other than our own, and read texts not our own. In fact, it inspired me to change my tagline.

Well done, be a lover of the light, from wherever it shines.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't really see it so black and white. It's not true/false, but how true and how false. No religion is perfect, but certainly some are closer to the truth than others. And similarly, even bad religions have some truth in them.

Yes, I'm just generalizing. But I'm talking about the religions of the Egyptians, the Greeks or the Romans. We could probably add the Assyrians and others from way back. Judaism and Christianity make it clear that those were false religions that believed in false Gods.

But Baha'is don't talk about them. They focus only on the major religions of today as if they all came from the same God. But how different are some of those ancient religions as compared to what even a religion like Christianity became?

Some had dying and rising God/men that were born of a human virgin mother and one of the Gods. Christianity had a lot of things common with those other religions.

What I'm arguing is that Baha'is simplify and generalize things too. By the time they are done, religions have been a nice smooth progression from Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism right into the Abrahamic religions. And those went smoothly from Judaism to Christianity to Islam to Babiism, to the Baha'i Faith.

Now if we all want to just take the good from each and not worry about the details, then that's fine with me. But that would have to include the Baha'is doing that also. But I don't think they will, because they truly believe their religion is the absolute truth from God for today.

Which means that there is really no need any longer for any of the older religions. God has given new laws and clarified misconceptions and misinterpretations of the past religions. Their message is new and fresh and is without error... Or so they claim.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As I said, the extraordinary details in the holy scriptures demonstrate to me that I don't need to compare the veracity of them with other detailed writings of a different origin. Matthew 24:24 says,
"For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones."

How do you know you are not doing just that?

Consider, you are offering interpretations that are not written in the Book, with no given authority. This type of interpretation is adding to the book, words that are not given by God.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ha ha, I must appear to be a Terrier or a bulldog and not a mouse.

LOL

I would ask a question, did Jesus give no proof? I would offer the valid proof he offered was his person, his life and the Message.

Hmmm, it's been a long time since I read the gospels, but I seem to recall Jesus often making arguments for his teachings. If I could generalize, he didn't try to prove things he said about himself, but he very much offered good arguments for his teachings on how to live.

One of the reasons that so many people DO reject Jesus' claims about himself, is because they were without merit. Not giving arguments for that kind of came back to bite him in the butt.

To those that asked for signs, he said no proof will be provided.

That's because signs and wonders prove nothing.

 

[CG Didymus]

I would ask a question, did Jesus give no proof? I would offer the valid proof he offered was his person, his life and the Message.

To those that asked for signs, he said no proof will be provided.

Jesus did give proof, and so did God... if we are going to believe the gospels.

But why do that? We are trusting the words of whoever wrote those stories.

But... let's pretend we do trust them. Proof that Jesus was from God. He was born of a virgin. Can't beat that. And nobody else has. Then he turns water into wine, walks on water, casts out demons, heals the crippled and the blind. He did miracles in front of people that only someone that had the supernatural power of God could do.

But then there were the doubters. He says no proof for you except... What? Nothing? No, I think he said something about just like Jonah was in the belly of a big fish for three days, that he would be in the ground for three days and rise again. Praise God! He has risen. They talked to him, touched him and saw he was real... that he had flesh and bone. And then they saw him ascended into the clouds and an angel said that Jesus would come back in the same way.

This "person, his life and message" that's Baha'u'llah's proof. Jesus did way more stuff. Oh, and I almost forgot. God himself spoke from heaven and said that Jesus was his beloved son. How can you top that?

There's is absolute proof that God is real and that Jesus is his only son.... That is if you want to believe all those gospel stories. And do Baha'is really believe those stories? At least not this one. Baha'is don't believe in the physical resurrection. So, what kind of "sign" is this if Jesus didn't really rise from the dead? A make believe one. A "sign" that didn't happen. A "sign" to fool people years later that Jesus really did these things and proved himself real. But he didn't. At least why would any Baha'i believe that he did?

Matt 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”​

39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.​

40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

 

[CG Didymus]

That's because signs and wonders prove nothing.

Accept for those that believe they really happened. Like... What do you tell a Christian that is basing their faith on all those alleged miracles of Jesus? They say, "But he was born of a virgin and rose from the dead! Did your prophet walk on water?"

What can you tell them? To say that those things didn't happen, is saying that the gospels are false. Or, to do like the Baha'is, a person can say those stories weren't literally true, just symbolically true. But... that's not much better. It's still saying those things didn't happen... that they were just fictional stories.

But some Jews face the same thing don't they? How do you tell a Jew that believes the Bible stories literally that they didn't happen?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus did give proof, and so did God... if we are going to believe the gospels.

But why do that? We are trusting the words of whoever wrote those stories.

Right, and without good reason to trust. That's why you can't use stories like Jesus' virgin birth as evidence of anything.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Accept for those that believe they really happened.

Not really. I have a bunch of friends involved in a religion called Yiguandao (it is the second largest religion in Taiwan). They routinely have miracles, and by that I mean things happen for them that I have no scientific explanation for. Do you think this is evidence for their truth claims? No. Miracles happen in every religion, and they all contradict each other.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus did give proof, and so did God... if we are going to believe the gospels.

But why do that? We are trusting the words of whoever wrote those stories.

But... let's pretend we do trust them. Proof that Jesus was from God. He was born of a virgin. Can't beat that. And nobody else has. Then he turns water into wine, walks on water, casts out demons, heals the crippled and the blind. He did miracles in front of people that only someone that had the supernatural power of God could do.

But then there were the doubters. He says no proof for you except... What? Nothing? No, I think he said something about just like Jonah was in the belly of a big fish for three days, that he would be in the ground for three days and rise again. Praise God! He has risen. They talked to him, touched him and saw he was real... that he had flesh and bone. And then they saw him ascended into the clouds and an angel said that Jesus would come back in the same way.

This "person, his life and message" that's Baha'u'llah's proof. Jesus did way more stuff. Oh, and I almost forgot. God himself spoke from heaven and said that Jesus was his beloved son. How can you top that?

There's is absolute proof that God is real and that Jesus is his only son.... That is if you want to believe all those gospel stories. And do Baha'is really believe those stories? At least not this one. Baha'is don't believe in the physical resurrection. So, what kind of "sign" is this if Jesus didn't really rise from the dead? A make believe one. A "sign" that didn't happen. A "sign" to fool people years later that Jesus really did these things and proved himself real. But he didn't. At least why would any Baha'i believe that he did?

Matt 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”​

39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.​

40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

I see you are asking why the proof God gives us requires Faith. I do not see the miracles are offered as proof but to anyone that experienced them in that age. After that the records are not a proof to anyone else, but they are a record of what faith can produce in our daily lives. This needs to be balanced in science. The Message does remain as a proof, as it gives us the required standard we can accept and practice. If we do that the proofs alao come from the miracles of our life experiences.

I personally see this is the entire purpose we are put in this Matrix, that is, to know and love God via our own freewill choice, with the evidence God has given us to do just that.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Right, and without good reason to trust. That's why you can't use stories like Jesus' virgin birth as evidence of anything.

I see it is a great metephor of how the Prophets are chosen by God before they are born into this world. Like the Message of Abraham and Moses, which was already written, their names and Message already chosen to be revealed to humanity. As such, though they are born into this world, in reality what they gives us it pre-existing and timeless, the true birth of the Spiritual awakening is without a material Father or Mother. The virgin birth showing the Message is born into this world, is only of God.

Regards Tony

 

[YoursTrue]

I see you are asking why the proof God gives us requires Faith. I do not see the miracles are offered as proof but to anyone that experienced them in that age. After that the records are not a proof to anyone else, but they are a record of what faith can produce in our daily lives. This needs to be balanced in science. The Message does remain as a proof, as it gives us the required standard we can accept and practice. If we do that the proofs alao come from the miracles of our life experiences.

I personally see this is the entire purpose we are put in this Matrix, that is, to know and love God via our own freewill choice, with the evidence God has given us to do just that.

Regards Tony

Some messages don't make much sense to me.

 

[YoursTrue]

Your choice, go with what you decide, our choices have a way of being answered, be they right or wrong.

Regards Tony

I believe and hope those whom God wants to know will know the truth about what's happening now and in the future. Also regards, YT.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe and hope those whom God wants to know will know the truth about what's happening now and in the future. Also regards, YT.

My morning prayers each day for all Humanity include "Thy Will be done in earth as it is in Heaven".

And

Is there any Remover of difficulties save God? Say: Praised be God! He is God! All are His servants, and all abide by His bidding!

And

Say: God sufficeth all things above all things, and nothing in the heavens or in the earth but God sufficeth. Verily, He is in Himself the Knower, the Sustainer, the Omnipotent.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some messages don't make much sense to me.

Use the Bible as a guide to all Faiths gone before, each passage of the New Testament will given insight into the Old.

Regards Tony