When it comes to Prayer 76% of Americans Don't Give a **** About the Constitution

[Shadow Wolf]

Just to give you an example of a scientific testing of the effects of God, you could poll people diagnosed with cancer, and see if there is any difference in the survival rate for people that are religious or have a lot of friends and relatives praying for them vs, atheist and non believers survival rate. Of course you could claim any benefits for believers was all psychological, and their belief in God tricked them to fight or not fight the cancer, but at least it would give some scientific testing of the benefits or detriments of being a believer or not.

Except in medicine we have studies that show even a sugar pill can provide healing benefits for some, so long as the individual believes it will work, but clearly there is no real medicine in the placebo/sugar pill/treatment, and it's nothing more than wishful thinking. In fact, all medications are tested against a placebo and must perform better than the placebo.

LOL, bad choice of an example to argue for your side.

They have done this study over and over and over again and proven no link between prayers and healing. In fact the only significant thing they found was people who knew they were being prayed for got better LESS...presumably because the knowledge of the prayer made them anxious ("am I THAT sick?") or that those waiting for prayers to help them had less natural fight in them than those who didn't.

Just one example of such a study is at the link below. There have been so many of these studies that there are now meta-studies summarizing all of the studies on the efficacy of prayer. Each and every one shows the same thing: prayer does nothing whatsoever to heal the sick.

People say a lot "you can't prove there is no God." This is true, however we can, and have already, disproved many claims people make about God. Prayer healing the sick is one of those.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=0

I've seen studies that suggest both, but it seems reasonable that the comfort faith can provide can have a psychological benefit. The best answer I have ever heard in regards, which came from anthropologist, is that even though there isn't any solid evidence to suggest that a prayer will work, it still doesn't hurt anything and it can go a long way in aiding the psychological well being of the person. But, of course, it must be stressed and emphasized this does not prove the existence of any god, as the "prayer" does not have to be to any specific god, or carried out in any specific manner or guidelines. Also, the study you linked focuses on "distant prayer" rather than prayers that come from within a persons regular social circles. It does show that "blanket prayers" cast out into the air will do nothing of benefit. But when it's done on a more personal level, it is, at the bare minimum, reasonable to assume there is a placebo of benefits at work.

 

[Demonslayer]

it still doesn't hurt anything

One of the studies showed that knowledge of prayer resulted in serious complications in 59% of the people vs. only 51% in those who were either not prayed for or were prayed for without their knowledge.

Just sayin'. I saw another study where it suggested people who are waiting for God to save them may "give up" more and have less tendency to fight for life.

So this idea that it may not hurt anything may just not be true.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One of the studies showed that knowledge of prayer resulted in serious complications in 59% of the people vs. only 51% in those who were either not prayed for or were prayed for without their knowledge.

Just sayin'. I saw another study where it suggested people who are waiting for God to save them may "give up" more and have less tendency to fight for life.

So this idea that it may not hurt anything may just not be true.

Except other studies have not confirmed this, which is the entire world of studying prayer as you'll find a ton of contradicting results. This is from the NCBI, and it does show the reality of such studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

Prayer has been reported to improve outcomes in human as well as nonhuman species, to have no effect on outcomes, to worsen outcomes and to have retrospective healing effects. For a multitude of reasons, research on the healing effects of prayer is riddled with assumptions, challenges and contradictions that make the subject a scientific and religious minefield. We believe that the research has led nowhere, and that future research, if any, will forever be constrained by the scientific limitations that we outline.

 

[Demonslayer]

Also, the study you linked focuses on "distant prayer" rather than prayers that come from within a persons regular social circles.

There are other studies that include family members. I've read a lot about this because it interests me.

But when it's done on a more personal level, it is, at the bare minimum, reasonable to assume there is a placebo of benefits at work.

It is very reasonable to think this, I agree. It's just that study after study fails to prove out what we might assume.

 

[Demonslayer]

"Prayer has been reported to improve outcomes in human as well as nonhuman species, to have no effect on outcomes, to worsen outcomes"

This is at the crux of it for me, and where most of the meta-studies focus. Study A shows small improvements, study B shows small negative outcomes, study C shows nothing. Never once has there been...in the hundreds of studies...a statistically significant correlation between the "prayed for" group and improved health.

If prayers worked, they would work. We would NEVER see groups of people being prayed for that got sicker or had more complications, unless God is a real ***** and sarcastically kills people who pray for healing or are being prayed for.

It pretty obvious looking at the data that any small health increase or small health decrease is random based on which patients were assigned to which groups. In other words, some people are going to have complications, some are not...when you divide the groups into the "prayed for" or "not prayed for" categories, you will inadvertently select more or fewer of those who will naturally get better into each category because you can't tell ahead of time who will get worse and who will get better.

 

[Lyndon]

I'll pray for you, see if your life gets better or worse.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If prayers worked, they would work. We would NEVER see groups of people being prayed for that got sicker or had more complications, unless God is a real ***** and sarcastically kills people who pray for healing or are being prayed for.

I do agree, but that is also why I say it is reasonable to assume a placebo is going on, and perhaps something going on that is very deeply rooted in our psychosocial nature, which is that if someone expects a certain thing to be performed to be healed, chances are good they won't feel healed without.

 

[Demonslayer]

I'll pray for you, see if your life gets better or worse.

Could get worse, could get better, could stay the same it seems!

 

[Demonslayer]

I do agree, but that is also why I say it is reasonable to assume a placebo is going on, and perhaps something going on that is very deeply rooted in our psychosocial nature, which is that if someone expects a certain thing to be performed to be healed, chances are good they won't feel healed without.

I'm in complete agreement with your idea here. I certainly do believe in psychosomatic healing. Our attitudes and mindset certainly can and do influence our physical health.

Which is why it's perplexing we don't see more prayer placebo effect in these studies!

The suppositions that I have read as to why we don't see more of this is that being prayed for doesn't always make people "feel good." Some people think "oh my God, am I SO sick that my family members are now praying for me?!?!" Some people think "OK God has this now, I don't have to fight so hard." In cases like this the placebo has the opposite effect. This is why we sometimes see some surprising downticks in health for the 'prayed for' group. If we happen to have folks in the study for whom the prayer makes them more anxious in some way.

And then of course there are some who likely DO feel better about being prayed for, and perhaps the elevated level of hope has some positive effect on their well being. This is why we might see some slight upticks in heath, for the folks who might feel better being prayed for.

In any case it should be clear to all that prayer can only have an effect...positively or negatively...because of the patients mind-body link and not because some cosmic medic is up there picking and choosing who he heals and who he lets suffer and die. In this way prayer is as effective as someone's favorite movie or peaceful music.

 

[Lyndon]

I'd definitely trust God to help me over Demonslayer.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'll pray for you, see if your life gets better or worse.

And I'll continue not praying for you.
I hope it's worked out well so far, & continues to do so.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd definitely trust God to help me over Demonslayer.

What if you need demons slayed?
If so, then he's your guy!
And if the demons clog your toilet, you know who to call !

 

[Demonslayer]

I'd definitely trust God to help me over Demonslayer.

Yeah I can't do squat for you so it's no use coming to me.

Unless you get a demon infestation of course. I can slay those lil' ******** with my bare hands. Lemme at 'em!

 

[Demonslayer]

And if the demons clog your toilet, you know who to call !

I've got a contractor for the dirty work.

 

[Revoltingest]

I've got a contractor for the dirty work.

Ahem.......

 

[Lyndon]

Actually God is the most effective demonslayer.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I'll pray for you, see if your life gets better or worse.

So if Demonslayer's life got worse would you then accept responsibility for having caused that with your prayers?

 

[Lyndon]

And I'll continue not praying for you.
I hope it's worked out well so far, & continues to do so.

Actually I pray for you too, I pray for everyone, even the animals. I don't pray for demons, though.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Actually God is the most effective demonslayer.

...

how many demons has God personally slain? I'm talking a head-count here. How many?

 

[Lyndon]

So if Demonslayer's life got worse would you then accept responsibility for having caused that with your prayers?

Karma's a *****!!