Where are the people?

[CG Didymus]

OK, arise and let us see what you can achieve.
'Para updesh kushal bahutere'. That is what Saint Tulsidas said. (It is damn easy to advise others)

Baha'is are very limited in what they can actually do. They are supposed to obey the government, so they can't or shouldn't protest. So, I wonder, with things like the racial protests and woman's equality protest, if Baha'is officially participated?

When this same Baha'i talked about people should rise up to stop the war in Ukraine, I asked why he didn't go there with other anti-war people and stand on the road and block the Russian troops? I'm sure people would join him. And I wouldn't doubt that some of them might get hurt or even killed. But would the Baha'i leaders support him doing such a thing in the name of the Baha'i Faith? Or even mentioning that he was a Baha'i? I don't think they want to look like radicals and trouble-makers... just nice, peaceful people that talk a lot about peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

Asking another question without answering the original question is dodging the question regardless of whether your question was sincere in my view.

I answer ALL questions when I understand what people are asking.
I could not answer the original question unless I knew what he was asking.

 

[exchemist]

Sharia law and the inquisition or
standing against them

Incarcerating a million people for their religious beliefs.

 

[Audie]

Incarcerating a million people for their religious beliefs.

Is the moral high ground in your country ?

You are sure you know what's going on in China and why?

And
You reject without comment everything ive said?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

In the future when humanity has regained its humanity this time will be looked back upon as the most shameful period in human history, when we heard the cries of our fellow human beings around the world suffering under the yoke of oppression and turned our backs on them.

Never before have more done as much for as many. More people live secure lives of relative leisure and abundance than ever in history, and the religions played no part in advancing the human condition. That's humanism's legacy, which gave us science and the modern, liberal, secular, social democracy. In the meantime, the religions say, "Love one another" and do nothing - like yours.

".......This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."

Then you've got your work cut out for you spreading the word, but good luck with that. I've seen much of it here, and it's been ineffective at attracting people. We mostly see it leading to division here.

Everyone does not have to believe in the Baha'i Faith to follow the counsels. Many atheists and believers of other religions are following them right now and they may never have even heard of the Baha'i Faith.

Then why go to the Baha'i faith for answers? If I have any opinions in common with that religion (or any other), it's coincidence.

The Baha'is are united, but we cannot unite with people of other religions who do not want to unite with us.

Just like all of the religions. They're divisive. They fragment. When do you see them doing the opposite? I invited a few Baha'i here on RF to join the humanists, but got no takers. We've already got multiple secular organizations and governments promoting humanist values and ideals such as the United Nations, NATO, the Western social democracy's governments, Greenpeace, Doctors Without Borders, and the like. The Baha'i can join us. Why haven't they yet? Not enough religion in humanism?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then why go to the Baha'i faith for answers? If I have any opinions in common with that religion (or any other), it's coincidence.

I am not saying that everyone should go to the Baha'i Faith for their answers. I go there because I am a Baha'i.

Just like all of the religions. They're divisive. They fragment. When do you see them doing the opposite?

The Baha'i Faith is not like all the other religions since we have the Covenant of Baha'u'llah that prevents fragmentation of the religion.
None of the older religions have such a Covenant.

I invited a few Baha'i here on RF to join the humanists, but got no takers. We've already got multiple secular organizations and governments promoting humanist values and ideals such as the United Nations, NATO, the Western social democracy's governments, Greenpeace, Doctors Without Borders, and the like. The Baha'i can join us. Why haven't they yet? Not enough religion in humanism?

Baha'is are not going to 'become' humanists since humanists don't believe in God, but we can work with the humanists towards the same goals.
I don't know what the other Baha'is are doing around the world, but you can read about that:

Bahá’í World News Service (BWNS) - Official news source of the worldwide Bahá’í community

The Bahá’í World News Service - BWNS - The official news source of the worldwide Bahá’í community, reports on major developments and endeavors of the global Bahá’í community.

news.bahai.org

 

[ppp]

I answer ALL questions when I understand what people are asking.
I could not answer the original question unless I knew what he was asking.

You still haven't.
Would you accept or support a social contract that was based on a lie?

 

[danieldemol]

I answer ALL questions when I understand what people are asking.
I could not answer the original question unless I knew what he was asking.

Ah okay, my mistake. You have a comprehension issue. The question took a generalised form and therefore it was not necessary to know which particular lie was in question. If you would support a social contract based on *any* lie your answer to the question should be yes, otherwise if you would not no matter the lie the answer is no.

Since you are a native English speaker I didnt expect such a basic error of comprehension, my bad.

 

[Trailblazer]

Would you accept or support a social contract that was based on a lie?

No.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah okay, my mistake. You have a comprehension issue. The question took a generalised form and therefore it was not necessary to know which particular lie was in question.

Only if it was understood that way, but it was not understood by me that way.

 

[danieldemol]

Only if it was understood that way, but it was not understood by me that way.

I would suggest there is only one correct way to understand the question in my view

 

[CG Didymus]

Then why go to the Baha'i faith for answers? If I have any opinions in common with that religion (or any other), it's coincidence.

A Baha'i or a person in a similar religion could ask... "Do you believe people should get along and live together in peace? That they should lend a hand and help those in need?"

Who would answer "no" to those kinds of questions? So, if you answer "yes" and the next questions are...

"Well then our religion has a new message from God that came through our prophet. And he has told us what we need to do to live in peace and love one another. Would you like to joing us and help build a peaceful world?"

That changes everything... What are the claims and beliefs... and the moral codes and laws of this new religion? That's where it gets divisive. Two claims are at the heart of most of the debates here with Baha'is. They claim... "There is one God" and "Our prophet was sent from God" Then the major turn off for many people here is their law forbidding homosexuality.

We've already got multiple secular organizations and governments promoting humanist values and ideals such as the United Nations, NATO, the Western social democracy's governments, Greenpeace, Doctors Without Borders, and the like. The Baha'i can join us. Why haven't they yet? Not enough religion in humanism?

Before the fall of the Soviet Union, there were a whole bunch of peace groups... There was Beyond War and the group that put together Hands Across America. Some Baha'is I knew went to meetings but it's questionable if they went there to work with them or went there to promote the Baha'i peace plan.

And I understand their problem. They can't get deeply involved in some group. Their time would be better spent serving and promoting the Baha'i cause... Something that they believe is a better and greater cause. But what is it that they seem to focus on and promote? Peace? Unity? Or talking about God and their prophet. And as soon as they do that, there's controversy and division. The opposite of what they say they are promoting.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ah okay, my mistake. You have a comprehension issue. The question took a generalised form and therefore it was not necessary to know which particular lie was in question. If you would support a social contract based on *any* lie your answer to the question should be yes, otherwise if you would not no matter the lie the answer is no.

Since you are a native English speaker I didnt expect such a basic error of comprehension, my bad.

I don't even understand it. But as soon as you said, "based on a lie". The answer for me became an automatic "no".

Now if you said if I would join a religion, no matter how good it seems, if it was based on a lie. I would understand that much easier. And my answer would be a little different... "Hell no!"

And the Baha'i Faith is that type of religion. It sounds so good in so many ways. But is everything it says true? I can't make myself believe all of it. And the same with Evangelical Christianity. I tried. I couldn't believe it all. Do good. Treat others with respect and kindness? Sure, I believe those things would be a good way for me to live. And I can try to live by those things.

But then religions add-in all of their beliefs about their God and prophets. And "no" I can't believe all that stuff. Maybe it's true. Maybe it isn't. And if I listen to my Christian friends they tell why not to believe in the Baha'i Faith. Then my Baha'i friends tell me what's wrong with the beliefs of those Christians. And I agree with both of them. There are good reasons not to believe... either one.

So, once again, once any religion gets into the details of their beliefs, they're going to become divisive. Not everybody is going to believe it and take it on "faith."

 

[ppp]

No.

Well, there you go. Neither will I.

• I don't believe that a god exists, so I would reject any social contract based on such a notion
• While I agree with some, I believe that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either false, immoral, or both. So again, I would be morally obligated reject such a foundation for society.
• It seems evident that the Baha'i have neither a coherent goal nor a cogent set of markers or milestones in place. Humanity has a long pointlessly bloody history of social change running nothing but idealism.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, there you go. Neither will I.

• I don't believe that a god exists, so I would reject any social contract based on such a notion
• While I agree with some, So again, I would be morally obligated reject such a foundation for society.
• It seems evident that the Baha'i have neither a coherent goal nor a cogent set of markers or milestones in place. Humanity has a long pointlessly bloody history of social change running nothing but idealism.

You asked me if I would accept or support a social contract that was based on a lie and I said "no."

Just because you do not believe that God exists that doesn't mean it is a lie, not any more than my belief that God exists means it is the truth.
Just because you believe that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either false, immoral, or both, that does not mean that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either false, immoral, or both.
Likewise, just because I believe that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either true, moral, or both, that does not mean that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either true, moral, or both.

Do you understand the problem?

 

[ppp]

You asked me if I would accept or support a social contract that was based on a lie and I said "no."

Yep.

Just because you do not believe that God exists that doesn't mean it is a lie, not any more than my belief that God exists means it is the truth.
Just because you believe that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either false, immoral, or both, that does not mean that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either false, immoral, or both.
Likewise, just because I believe that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either true, moral, or both, that does not mean that several tenets of the Baha'i faith are either true, moral, or both.

I have never made a just because I believe assertion.. That is the realm of the alternate logic and my own personal truth folk.

Do you understand the problem?

I don't think that you are understanding the conversation.

As I said earlier on:

With a foundation of even the most generic god, you still would exclude a large chunk of the non-dualists from your Greater Peace. Not to mention all of the religious people that disallow for any gods but their specific one. Not to mention all of the non-religious groups that you exclude from full social franchisement. And by you, I am referring to the Baha'i Faith; not necessarily to you in particular.

Because of that exclusivity, the Baha'i Faith carries the seeds of disunity in itself.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have never made a just because I believe assertion.. That is the realm of the alternate logic and my own personal truth folk.

It all boils down to your personal opinion.

I don't think that you are understanding the conversation.

As I said earlier on:

With a foundation of even the most generic god, you still would exclude a large chunk of the non-dualists from your Greater Peace. Not to mention all of the religious people that disallow for any gods but their specific one. Not to mention all of the non-religious groups that you exclude from full social franchisement. And by you, I am referring to the Baha'i Faith; not necessarily to you in particular.

Because of that exclusivity, the Baha'i Faith carries the seeds of disunity in itself.

And I explained that belief systems don't exclude anyone from the Greater Peace, which is a political peace between nations that has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Moreover, the Baha'i Faith is not exclusive. It is inclusive, since it is open to anyone who wants to join.
However, we cannot 'include' people who do not want to join.

The Difference between Inclusive and Exclusive​

Question

What is the difference between 'inclusive' and 'exclusive'? — Sweety, Sri Lanka

Answer

'Inclusive' means "including everything" or "open to everyone; not limited to certain people" An all-inclusive resort/cruise is a resort/cruise that includes everything--the cost covers your room, meals, drinks, etc. An inclusive organization/club/company is open to everyone regardless of who they are, their social/economic status, the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their religion, their gender identity, etc. Below are some examples of how inclusive is used in a sentence.

• He paid for an inclusive cruise so that he would not be surprised by a bill at the end of his vacation.
• The inclusive organization wants to make sure all of its members feel welcome and respected.
• The company hired a consultant to help them build an inclusive workspace.

'Exclusive' means "not shared" or "available to only a few people." Something that is exclusive will exclude certain things, people, or groups. An exclusive restaurant, hotel, or school may only be available to people who have a lot of money. Below are some examples of how exclusive is used in a sentence.

• The news station got an exclusive [=only for their news outlet, not to other news outlets] interview with the governor.
• The store promoted an exculive offer available only to their customers who were loyalty club members.
• It was an exclusive party only attended by the most well-known celebrities.

The Difference between Inclusive and Exclusive | Britannica Dictionary

'Inclusive' means "including everything" or "open to everyone; not limited to certain people" An all-inclusive resort/cruise is a resort/cruise that i

www.britannica.com

 

[ppp]

It all boils down to your personal opinion.

Sure. According to people with alternate logic and their own personal truth.

And I explained that belief systems don't exclude anyone from the Greater Peace, which is a political peace between nations that has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

I will remind you that you explicitly said that without your religious beliefs that it would not happen.

As for the rest of your posts, I will never read your cut and pastes or anything that resembles cut and pastes. It is slack. Do you own work.

 

[Aupmanyav]

".......This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." — Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CXXXI

This is preaching, proselytization, TransmutingSoul; and it is against the Forum rules. Not every one believes in your God or your prophet.
We have thousands of Gods, Goddesses and sages.

And I explained that belief systems don't exclude anyone from the Greater Peace, which is a political peace between nations that has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Moreover, the Baha'i Faith is not exclusive. It is inclusive, since it is open to anyone who wants to join.
However, we cannot 'include' people who do not want to join.

That experiment has been done twice and has failed miserably - League of Nations and United Nations. It does not stop wars.
All religions are open, even Judaism and Zoroastrianism. They welcome newcomers and never force anyone to join them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure. According to people with alternate logic and their own personal truth.

Alternate logic to what? To your logic, which is only what you consider logical.
Their own personal truth? You mean as opposed to your own personal truth?
This is all about Ego.

I will remind you that you explicitly said that without your religious beliefs that it would not happen.

No, I never said that. That is a straw man. Quote me saying that or stop making a straw man.
You are taking what I quoted and turning it into something else, something YOU think it means.

As for the rest of your posts, I will never read your cut and pastes or anything that resembles cut and pastes. It is slack. Do you own work.

That is just an excuse for avoiding what I said. Here, I will paraphrase it.

It has always been God’s purpose to usher in, in ways only God can bring about, the Great, Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity.
This is a religious belief, but the belief is not what is going to make it happen.

Religious beliefs do not make anything happen. God ushered it in and people will make it happen by bringing it about.