Where are the people?

[ppp]

Everything must be judged by its actions not its words or claims. Yes I fully agree with you. Abuse and corruption definitely cannot be accepted.

I am glad we are on the same page there. That type of person should not be indulged. I would suggest that an analogous type of organization should be similarly treated, Even more harshly, because while a person merits a base amount of respect, an organization does not.

I asked you to, Name something real that you can demonstrate to be true and of value that also requires the existence of religion? And you could not. I would suggest that no one is suggesting that we throw out the baby with the bathwater. Religion is the bathwater.

 

[Trailblazer]

Another great post. TB's post doesn't help. It is saying/claiming that the Baha'i Faith is the truth and will win out in the end. Sure, Baha'is believe that, but who else? Is it going to draw people in or push them away?

Unfortunately, you're fighting an uphill battle to win the respect of some of people here.

Stating 'what we believe' is not disrespecting other people. It would only be disrespecting them if we expected them to believe what we believe or if we tried to push our beliefs on other people.

To try to 'pretend' that we don't believe what we do believe just to coddle other people is dishonest. If people don't have personal boundaries then that is a psychological problem they need to deal with. Anyone can tell me what they believe or disbelieve and it doesn't bother me because I have good boundaries so I realize that we all have a right to our own beliefs or non-beliefs.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I was not talking about God speaking, I was talking about you speaking. I guess you did not catch that.

Talking about me, an atheist, to accept your fictitious deity and its self-proclaimed messengers who have no evidence to offer!
Sure, you have your head in clouds.

 

[Trailblazer]

The "bathwater" is your religion, the Baha'i Faith. It still has too many claims that can't easily be supported, and for some of us, not supported at all. The main ones being that there is a God, and that Baha'u'llah is his prophet/manifestation.

Only in your opinion, but you have a right to your opinion, as do I and the other Baha'is.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries. Beware lest, through compassion, ye neglect to carry out the statutes of the religion of God...

Oh, how disgusting! The God of Bahais asks us to have no compassion. Put a mark on his brow and that of his messengers and banish them from civilized society.

 

[Trailblazer]

Talking about me, an atheist, to accept your fictitious deity and its self-proclaimed messengers who have no evidence to offer!
Sure, you have your head in clouds.

I guess you still did not understand what I was getting at, so I guess I will have to spell it out.

Aupmanyav said: Trailblazer has no use of logic.
Trailblazer said: God speaks, so we had better believe Him.

In other words you must be the all-knowing God because 'you know' that I have no use of logic.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In other words you must be the all-knowing God because 'you know' that I have no use of logic.

I quoted what only what you wrote. You said that if you used logic, you would not have known anything.
So, in your opinion, knowing comes only when logic is abandoned. I am not interested in illogical things.

 

[Trailblazer]

I quoted what only what you wrote. You said that if you used logic, you would not have known anything.

When did I ever write that?

 

[danieldemol]

That's hilarious. None of those posts have me attributing faults to you or @ppp. I stay on topic rather than getting personal.

I believe that is false, you accused me of jumping on the bandwagon of disunity by wrongly alleging that I support false allegations of Baha'is and accused me of humiliating myself in post #227 Both of these are attributing character flaws to me which I dont even possess in my view.

In #220 you described @ppp view as 'ego' which is again a type of fault finding of character flaws in my view.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's true, but on the other hand, it is unjust to assume that the Baha'i Faith is just like all the other religions. It is also illogical to assume that, since it is the fallacy of hasty generalization.

It is also true that all the religions have not committed abuses just because certain one have done so, all the more reason not to commit the fallacy of hasty generalization.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a rushed conclusion without considering all of the variables. In statistics, it may involve basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent an entire population.[3] Its opposite fallacy is called slothful induction, or denying a reasonable conclusion of an inductive argument (e.g. "it was just a coincidence").
Faulty generalization - Wikipedia

It will take time.

 

[ppp]

It will take time.

Time is not enough.

In the mean time, it is entirely appropriate to treat a spade as a spade.

 

[loverofhumanity]

To accomplish what you are speaking of would require allowing other countries to absorb ours or else to immigrate. That would be the only way to reach the people in those other countries in the manner you suggest. No country is going to let lots of people cross in, so then the only way is to be absorbed and to have one's protective government removed. You give up your safety, your own protection. You risk losing everything to help a stranger. Not only that not every country will grant citizenship or even equal rights. So you give up everything, but then you might be in need of help.

I wonder how we got to national sovereignty. It was gradually wasnt it? Things like fiefdoms and such and then eventually federated states? With the USA it was the civil war now the United States. The transition would be gradual but we would not lose our national identities. Just there would be World governance to deal with world issues.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Time is not enough.

In the mean time, it is entirely appropriate to treat a spade as a spade.

Everything must be tested as to its truth or value and that includes the Baha’i Faith. If one feels it is not the answer then it should be rejected. i found out for myself using my own mind and accepted it. But others should follow where their mind takes them on matters of religion, God and belief. This is a basic and fundamental human right that needs to be respected by one and all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

About being defensive. I see no need. I believe what I do and it doesn’t matter to me if others don’t agree because I do not expect them to. I am here to learn and so whether it be an atheist, Christian, humanist I stand to learn from all of you and I would be foolish if I just thought I was the only one to have anything to offer. That would be arrogance and ignorance. My life is enriched from what I learn here from you guys and in my life. Learning lightens my own life.

Recently when I was sick and had to go to hospital a kind neighbour helped. I was worried about keeping in touch with my family which distressed me because no way to charge my phone. She said ‘take this’ unselfishly. It was a power pack, battery pack? Anyway I was able to keep in touch with my family. Eased my situation considerably. After I bought one power pack. Did it matter she wasn’t a Baha’i or religious? No. we learn and share daily if we are not proud or arrogant and which helps us as everyone has something we can learn from. But if we say we are Baha’is and only we know and all others are misled then we are very foolish. That’s why I maintain every person here on this forum is precious and we can all learn from one another. None of us has any high moral or other ground over anyone else. We are all fellow humans.

 

[ppp]

Everything must be tested as to its truth or value and that includes the Baha’i Faith.

Do you have an actual test? A test that won't pass a member of the Peoples Temple, Heaven's gate or the Jehovah,'s witnesses?

 

[ppp]

This is a basic and fundamental human right that needs to be respected by one and all.

Do you think that you have the right to be uncriticized for your beliefs? Because, as far as I can see, that is all you are being subjected too

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you have an actual test? A test that won't pass a member of the Peoples Temple, Heaven's gate or the Jehovah,'s witnesses?

The only thing is to judge for oneself and research it and decide for oneself if it has any merit for oneself. I used my own mind and came to my own conclusions no matter what others said or whatever I read. I made up my own mind independently.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you think that you have the right to be uncriticized for your beliefs? Because, as far as I can see, that is all you are being subjected too

In that sentence I was meaning everyone has the human right to reject any belief they do not agree with. It is a basic right for me to choose my belief and for you to reject it. So I meant to say it is your right to reject any belief you wish.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you have an actual test? A test that won't pass a member of the Peoples Temple, Heaven's gate or the Jehovah,'s witnesses?

The actual test, a test won't be passed by the People's Temple, Heaven's gate or the Jehovah's witnesses, can be read about in the following book.
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

Proofs of Prophethood
​

Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20

In the chapters that follow, we shall endeavor to show whether Bahá’u’lláh’s claim to Prophethood stands or falls by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil; in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled and His ordinances established, and whether His lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals, or the contrary.”
Proofs of Prophethood, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 8-9

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think that you have the right to be uncriticized for your beliefs? Because, as far as I can see, that is all you are being subjected too

@loverofhumanity did not say that he has the right to be uncriticized. He said he has the right follow where his mind takes him on matters of religion, God and belief, and that everyone has that right, including you, since it is a fundamental human right.