Where are the people?

[danieldemol]

...The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20

In the chapters that follow, we shall endeavor to show whether Bahá’u’lláh’s claim to Prophethood stands or falls by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil; in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled...

Baha'u'llah fails on both counts in my view.
For examples of Baha'u'llah's false prophecy i refer the critical thinker to the thread How are these Great Beings explained? from post #16,055 onwards where an insightful user who seems to have departed the forum worked on debunking Baha'u'llah's alleged power of prophecy.

For the corrupt fruits he produced I refer the critical thinker to Homophobia, the prevention of women from being elected to the Baha'i Universal House of Justice etc.

 

[ppp]

The only thing is to judge for oneself and research it and decide for oneself if it has any merit for oneself. I used my own mind and came to my own conclusions no matter what others said or whatever I read. I made up my own mind independently.

I didn't ask you that. I asked,
Do you have an actual test? A test that won't pass a member of the Peoples Temple, Heaven's gate or the Jehovah,'s witnesses?

 

[ppp]

In that sentence I was meaning everyone has the human right to reject any belief they do not agree with. It is a basic right for me to choose my belief and for you to reject it. So I meant to say it is your right to reject any belief you wish.

That is one of those trivially obvious statements that people use to just to fill space. No one has questioned your right you you own conclusions. What is being questioned are your facts, your claims and your reasoning.

 

[danieldemol]

Baha'u'llah fails on both counts in my view.
For examples of Baha'u'llah's false prophecy i refer the critical thinker to the thread How are these Great Beings explained? from post #16,055 onwards where an insightful user who seems to have departed the forum worked on debunking Baha'u'llah's alleged power of prophecy.

For the corrupt fruits he produced I refer the critical thinker to Homophobia, the prevention of women from being elected to the Baha'i Universal House of Justice etc.

Here is another piece of gold on whether Baha'u'llah is a false prophet in post #259;

Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

Who is 'promoting' any prophecies? :shrug: Not me. I fully agree. Their courage and valor and bravery has me in tears every time I listen to the news. :sweat: The whole world has a lot to learn from them. Yes...... true. Thank you for that, Trailblazer.....

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Brickjectivity]

I wonder how we got to national sovereignty. It was gradually wasnt it? Things like fiefdoms and such and then eventually federated states? With the USA it was the civil war now the United States. The transition would be gradual but we would not lose our national identities. Just there would be World governance to deal with world issues.

One cause is scarcity. Scarcity is managed through division of labor and through competition. Another cause is psychology. Some people struggle moment to moment to feel happy.

What happens is that people cannot stand each other or are afraid to make friends, and some are dangerous. For example: hitchhiking is dangerous both for the hiker and for the driver. Your suggestion is (currently) unworkable, impossible. If it could be done we'd have done it by now.

You need:

• an ability to identify people who cannot be made happy and change them so that they can be happy.
• to eliminate scarcity.

These two things will (I think) eventually erode and erase national boundaries. Without these two abilities, any global plans to eliminate boundaries and help all poor people are unlikely to succeed.

 

[danieldemol]

In this video produced by a Muslim Baha'u'llah's so called "prophecies" are shown to be able to be done by analysis of the current events of the time. It then goes on to detail a false prophecy of Abdul-Baha about Shoghi Effendi having blood heirs and comes up with a point that Baha'u'llah made no detailed prophecies about the distant future beyond His lifetime that came true which lends credence to the claim that Baha'u'llah was simply making prophecies based on analysis of the events of his lifetime. Although I found the bit about Muhammad being a true prophet at the end laughable, but the video is pretty accurate with it's claims about the Baha'i faith (I placed it behind a spoiler because it contains images of Baha'u'llah);

Spoiler

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh, how disgusting! The God of Bahais asks us to have no compassion. Put a mark on his brow and that of his messengers and banish them from civilized society.

They have a mark on their face and put out of town, where are they going to go? Maybe form their own little groups of thieves and bandits out in the hills? Great plan.
Since that is a Baha'i law, then is it only for Baha'is? Then the thieves, the arsons, the adulterers are all Baha'is? So, how "perfect" is the Baha'i society really going to be? And if a person complains and gets excommunicated, where are they going to go? To the hills with the thieves?

 

[Trailblazer]

Here is another piece of gold on whether Baha'u'llah is a false prophet in post #259;

Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

Who is 'promoting' any prophecies? :shrug: Not me. I fully agree. Their courage and valor and bravery has me in tears every time I listen to the news. :sweat: The whole world has a lot to learn from them. Yes...... true. Thank you for that, Trailblazer.....

www.religiousforums.com

Close, but no cigar.

The Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I is not about WWI and WWII

O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory. Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I

In one of His Tablets written before the first World War (1914–1918), ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explained that Bahá’u’lláh’s reference to having seen the banks of the Rhine “covered with gore” related to the Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871), and that there was more suffering to come. In God Passes By Shoghi Effendi states that the “oppressively severe treaty” that was imposed on Germany following its defeat in the first World War “provoked ‘the lamentations [of Berlin]’ which half a century before, had been ominously prophesied.”
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas", 90

Most Baha'is believe that the Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I refers to WWI and WWII, and "another turn" is WWII, but contrary to what is popularly believed among Baha'is, "another turn" is World War I and the oppressive treaty after that was the "lamentations of Berlin".

No one noticed that "we have seen you" is in the past tense.

#2619 Truthseeker9

 

[danieldemol]

Close, but no cigar.

The Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I is not about WWI and WWII

O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory. Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I

In one of His Tablets written before the first World War (1914–1918), ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explained that Bahá’u’lláh’s reference to having seen the banks of the Rhine “covered with gore” related to the Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871), and that there was more suffering to come. In God Passes By Shoghi Effendi states that the “oppressively severe treaty” that was imposed on Germany following its defeat in the first World War “provoked ‘the lamentations [of Berlin]’ which half a century before, had been ominously prophesied.”
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas", 90

Most Baha'is believe that the Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I refers to WWI and WWII, and "another turn" is WWII, but contrary to what is popularly believed among Baha'is, "another turn" is World War I and the oppressive treaty after that was the "lamentations of Berlin".

No one noticed that "we have seen you" is in the past tense.

#2619 Truthseeker9

To the contrary, the tablet was a warning addressed to Kaiser Wilhelm 1 who died in 1888. Thus in my opinion to claim the gore on the banks of the Rhine refers to an event *after* Wilhelm's life makes your God;
A) The speaker of irrelevancy and
B) Immoral for punishing someone else for the actions of Wilhelm 1.

But Baha'is are left with no option but to swallow A and B because they have to post hoc rationalise failed prophecy in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But Baha'is are left with no option but to swallow A and B because they have to post hoc rationalise failed prophecy in my view.

The flaw in your theory is that these prophecies were relished by the Enemies of Baha’u’llah, as now they had fuel for their fires of hate. They could use these to mock Baha’u’llah and show his falsehood.

Yet though they did commence with this campaign of mocking, they were not able to continue, as in that age they were seen to be fulfilled.

Interestingly, the only Monarchy of the time that offerd a favourable reply to Baha’u’llah was the Queen of England. In turn Baha’u’llah praised some actions the Queen had initiated in Her Rule and offered because of these fruits of her reign, that her reign would last, which is 100% fulfilled, even to the extent a relative who became a Queen also became a Baha'i, Queen Marie of Romania.

Where are the other Monarchies? Did they fall as predicted! Yes indeed they did.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

The flaw in your theory is that these prophecies were relished by the Enemies of Baha’u’llah, as now they had fuel for their fires of hate. They could use these to mock Baha’u’llah and show his falsehood.

They still can mock Baha'u'llah with them in my view.

Yet though they did commence with this campaign of mocking, they were not able to continue, as in that age they were seen to be fulfilled.

And yet contrary to your claim the mocking continues to this day.

Interestingly, the only Monarchy of the time that offerd a favourable reply to Baha’u’llah was the Queen of England. In turn Baha’u’llah praised some actions the Queen had initiated in Her Rule and offered because of these fruits of her reign, that her reign would last, which is 100% fulfilled, even to the extent a relative who became a Queen also became a Baha'i, Queen Marie of Romania.

Yeah Romania is no longer a monarchy. So much for following Baha’u’llah extending the reign of monarchies.

Where are the other Monarchies? Did they fall as predicted! Yes indeed they did.

Um no. Kaiser Wilhelm 1 died emporer of a United Germany. You are forgetting A)irrelevancy and B)The immorality you are attributing to your God of punishing others for the actions of Kaiser Wilhelm 1 in my view.

Kind regards

 

[danieldemol]

No one noticed that "we have seen you" is in the past tense.

I forgot to address this. Baha'u'llah never visited the banks of the Rhine at any time let alone when they were covered with gore. So He never saw any such thing in actuality in my view. "We have seen you" is simply a reference to one of his (in my view) delusional visions of an alleged future. Hence the past tense - because He had this vision in the past in my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

To the contrary, the tablet was a warning addressed to Kaiser Wilhelm 1 who died in 1888. Thus in my opinion to claim the gore on the banks of the Rhine refers to an event *after* Wilhelm's life makes your God;
A) The speaker of irrelevancy and
B) Immoral for punishing someone else for the actions of Wilhelm 1.

But Baha'is are left with no option but to swallow A and B because they have to post hoc rationalise failed prophecy in my view.

I see that @lukethethird and @ppp bought into what you said, which is not vert smart, because what you said is completely inaccurate.
Smart people think with their own minds rather than 'believing' what someone else says.

The Tablet was delivered to Kaiser Wilhelm 1 in 1870. Kaiser Wilhelm 1 died in 1888. The gore on the banks of the Rhine refers to an event *after* Wilhelm's life, since it is referring to WWII.

In the following Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I, KING of Berlin, Baha’u’llah was warning Kaiser Wilhelm I that WWII would occur if he did not heed Baha’u’llah’s call.

Baha’u’llah’s reference to having seen the banks of the Rhine “covered with gore” refers to the Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871). Bahá’u’lláh warned Kaiser Wilhelm I that there was more suffering to come because Baha’u’llah foresaw WWII. That is why He said "and you shall have another turn."

Baha’u’llah referred to Napoleon III in this Tablet as “he it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him” and He warned Kaiser Wilhelm I that he would meet with a similar fate if he did not heed Baha’u’llah’s call.

Baha’u’llah had a vision of WWII -- We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you -- so He was predicting what would happen, but only on a conditional basis. Had Kaiser Wilhelm I heeded Baha’u’llah’s call, WWII could have been prevented.

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

 

[Trailblazer]

I forgot to address this. Baha'u'llah never visited the banks of the Rhine at any time let alone when they were covered with gore. So He never saw any such thing in actuality in my view. "We have seen you" is simply a reference to one of his (in my view) delusional visions of an alleged future. Hence the past tense - because He had this vision in the past in my opinion.

Of course Baha'u'llah did not visit the banks of the Rhine and see it covered with gore in person. Nothing could be more absurd.

We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you.

He saw it in a vision but anyone could have known about it, since it had already happened when this Tablet was written.

Baha'u'llah was a Prophet so He could see into the future in his visions. That is why He could foresee WWII before it happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

but the video is pretty accurate with it's claims about the Baha'i faith

Sure, a video about the Baha'i Faith made by a Muslim would be pretty accurate. Got any logical abilities?
Maybe you also have a video made by a Christian who 'believes' that Baha'u'llah is the antichrist.

 

[Trailblazer]

The immorality you are attributing to your God of punishing others for the actions of Kaiser Wilhelm 1 in my view.

God was not punishing others for the actions of Kaiser Wilhelm 1. Baha'u'llah was only telling Kaiser Wilhelm 1 that WWII could have been prevented if the Kaiser had heeded His call. If you cannot understand the difference between those two you need a course in critical thinking.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah fails on both counts in my view.

Unfortunately, it's kind of a joke that TB puts a quote from the Bible out there. She and other Baha'is cherry-pick which verses they take as literal and which ones are symbolic.

How can there be a test when Baha'is can give any answer they want and somehow, it's always right... in their minds.

Like... "Did Krishna teach reincarnation?" Baha'i answer, "No, his followers misinterpreted what he said." "Did Jesus rise from the dead?" "Yes, spiritually, not physically." "But the NT says he had a flesh and bone body?" "So, it says a lot of things, but it doesn't mean it is to be taken literally."

Or, "Baha'u'llah said that Noah preached for 950 years." "Years were counted differently back then." Or "His dispensation lasted 950 years." Or some other made-up excuse as to why their prophet said something that isn't true. Their logic? "Well, he's the infallible manifestation of God, so he's right, but we just don't know what he meant.

 

[CG Didymus]

I forgot to address this. Baha'u'llah never visited the banks of the Rhine at any time let alone when they were covered with gore. So He never saw any such thing in actuality in my view. "We have seen you" is simply a reference to one of his (in my view) delusional visions of an alleged future. Hence the past tense - because He had this vision in the past in my opinion.

Unbelievable, when was it that TB said see doesn't point out the faults in others? But in her response to you she finds fault with two people for not thinking with their own mind. Which is something that "smart" people don't do; therefore, they are stupid?

And reading on, I guess you lack logical abilities and need to take a course in critical thinking.

 

[danieldemol]

The Tablet was delivered to Kaiser Wilhelm 1 in 1870. Kaiser Wilhelm 1 died in 1888.

Yeah of natural causes as the Emperor of a United Germany at the ripe old age of 91

The gore on the banks of the Rhine refers to an event *after* Wilhelm's life, since it is referring to WWII.

Your interpretation of Baha'u'llah's warning paraphrased by me - "I'm warning you Wilhelm, if you dont follow me someone else will lose their monarchy decades after your death."

In the following Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I, KING of Berlin, Baha’u’llah was warning Kaiser Wilhelm I that WWII would occur if he did not heed Baha’u’llah’s call.

WW2 is irrelevant to Kaiser Wilhelm 1 who was long gone.

Baha’u’llah’s reference to having seen the banks of the Rhine “covered with gore” refers to the Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871).

What battle occurred on the banks of the Rhine during 1870-71?

Baha’u’llah referred to Napoleon III in this Tablet as “he it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him” and He warned Kaiser Wilhelm I that he would meet with a similar fate if he did not heed Baha’u’llah’s call.

Precisely, the prophecy is centred on the person of Kaiser Wilhelm 1 who evidently did not meet with a similar fate to Napoleon in my view because Napoleon was defeated and died a premature death whilst Kaiser Wilhelm 1 lived to the ripe old age of 91 dying of natural causes the Emperor of United Germany. To get all that WW2 crap you have to decontextualise elements of the prophecy in my view.

Baha’u’llah had a vision of WWII -- We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you -- so He was predicting what would happen, but only on a conditional basis. Had Kaiser Wilhelm I heeded Baha’u’llah’s call, WWII could have been prevented.

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

 

[danieldemol]

Sure, a video about the Baha'i Faith made by a Muslim would be pretty accurate. Got any logical abilities?

Apparently more than you, was their any claim made by the particular Muslim in relationship to the Baha'i faith that was false? If not you are just making a hasty generalisation (your personal favourite fallacy) about Muslims in my view.

Maybe you also have a video made by a Christian who 'believes' that Baha'u'llah is the antichrist.

No I don't and irrelevant anyway in my opinion.