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Where does the Quran say Muhammad is the last Messenger of God?

MyM

Well-Known Member
That's great. So, even though the Bible says Jesus is the only way to God, still you can believe in Muhamad, Quran and Sunnah.

I don't know why though. Because it does not seem you treat Quran the same way. You just say, because Quran says, today religion is complete, then that's it. No more revelation. But when the Bible says, Jesus the only way, you could still believe in another revelation.
I hope I am clear what I'm trying to say.
So, if you could accept that, although Jesus said He is the only way to God, yet, another Revelation from God was possible, why you cannot believe that, after Quran, another Revelation is possible, even if it is said, it is complete.
I never understood the logic. But anyways, all the best to you.

Yes, I explained :) In Jesus time, it WAS the only way to get to heaven. You HAD to believe in him. His message. :) I accepted it and actually in Islam, you still must believe in Jesus to get to Paradise. :)

I went further than that. I actually almost tore my redlettered Bible apart with so much reading I did from it. I didn't say that Jesus was the only way. I said he was the way. :) There are places now in the Bible that speak out to be about Mohammad pbuh. I see that now after I became a Muslim. I still have my Bible and I still look at it as references. I cannot put my faith in a book that is from God when I see there are mistakes in it. Sure, the book has words of God in it. But not all the Bible is the word of God...it's simple when you see the translations being misinterpreted and placed incorrectly in places. To me, a book of God has no mistakes in it :) That is why I believe in the Quran. I truly believe that the Quran is from Allah and that over 1400 years now He is still protecting it. No one has changed it and he said he is the protector over it. :)

The reason why I can't believe there will be another religion after the Quran is because Allah said so in the Quran. He perfected the religion. But Jesus never made that claim. As a matter of fact he said he has to go away for the spirit of truth is to come and that HE will teach you all truths. We believe that to be Mohammad pbuh. I know you think it is the holy spirit but the holy spirit doesn't speak or teach and it isnt a he....but as we say, the bible cannot be trusted since man wrote it down not even during the time of Jesus.

best to you
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Yes, I explained :) In Jesus time, it WAS the only way to get to heaven. You HAD to believe in him. His message. :) I accepted it and actually in Islam, you still must believe in Jesus to get to Paradise. :)

I went further than that. I actually almost tore my redlettered Bible apart with so much reading I did from it. I didn't say that Jesus was the only way. I said he was the way. :) There are places now in the Bible that speak out to be about Mohammad pbuh. I see that now after I became a Muslim. I still have my Bible and I still look at it as references. I cannot put my faith in a book that is from God when I see there are mistakes in it. Sure, the book has words of God in it. But not all the Bible is the word of God...it's simple when you see the translations being misinterpreted and placed incorrectly in places. To me, a book of God has no mistakes in it :) That is why I believe in the Quran. I truly believe that the Quran is from Allah and that over 1400 years now He is still protecting it. No one has changed it and he said he is the protector over it. :)

The reason why I can't believe there will be another religion after the Quran is because Allah said so in the Quran. He perfected the religion. But Jesus never made that claim. As a matter of fact he said he has to go away for the spirit of truth is to come and that HE will teach you all truths. We believe that to be Mohammad pbuh. I know you think it is the holy spirit but the holy spirit doesn't speak or teach and it isnt a he....but as we say, the bible cannot be trusted since man wrote it down not even during the time of Jesus.

best to you
Yes, just as I thought.
So, you believe The Bible is changed from original Revelation, but the Quran is protected.

Why didn't God protect the Injil, but He protected the Quran? Wasn't Injil also from God?

When was it changed, and how?

I know the Muslims say that, but, Why did you believe them when they told you that the Injil is changed?

I know what your answer is. You say, because Allah wanted to protect the Quran but He did not want to protect the Injil.

Loollll.
Very logical indeed.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Teachers. Men. Theist.

You think about earths O one God body conditions.

How it affected your life.

If you teach Muhammad is the last and only did it mean....
Falling star first was fallen. Burning.

Then life on earth cooled evolved. No science.

Then science was practiced heating burning up removing stone. In mother's laws space cold ownership as ship is just Form. The one God form.

So life was attacked making Muhammad the warning last and only messenger only god O earth teaching form is one.

No other reasoning as it was already taught.

Do you expect it to arrive at the end to destroy what man built cities as the one and only true teaching against man's science?

As science began science only then it only ended science.

As only god is one and no man is God teaching,?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Which Messengers gave an imperfect word?

Regards Tony
If a human man science inventor says a cold star mass is holy on earth only they also meant in space falling it wasn't.

So cold earth star cold holy mountain equal. Not changed.

Muhammad it was attacked.

Three theists wise predictors in science were men of science the theists.

Moses happened. Moses the teaching stated it as not Muhammad.. and not Jehovah.

As those terms owned their own references in teaching.

So moses was a new teaching that proved Muhammad's advice was real. Cold earth star holy only.

Prophecy falling wandering stars. Three wise men witnessed star studies was the theme. Said it was returning. It wasn't. It was passing.

Was a teaching against scientists.

All new events attacked life summarised looking back why.

Garden burning bush the topic nature garden and life eviction. From owning biology.

Science began in a desert hence ended increased the desert. Why it ended as a larger desert mass. The wilderness.

So Muhammad teaching agreed ice the newly born of God earth was not any science thesis number or formula had saved life.

Was not the cold star that saved life.

Changed updated their teachings.

Jesus was accepted as a misquoted pre science teaching.

As immaculate heavens clear gas is earths only is what gets sacrificed. Not man.
As ice gods own saviour melts get sacrificed. Not man.

You cannot make a heavenly thesis as ice keeps it cooled. No science as science bases it's wisdom on our heavens. Lied about wisdom of three.

Science says my machine is manifest by evil. Burning melt. I gave it oxygenated life water.

Then he says my machine reaction is evil I give its life's spirit oxygenated water.

So his self possessed theist says science exists as it took biologies life water spirit. Believed it. Tried to incorporate it in new heavens theories.

What self possession by mind meant as evil human thinking concepts.

Rome hence said three was stopped. Yet three by survival now holy yet it began as one.

So Rome only accepted one but taught why about 3.

Ignored in new review.

Yet history said new life attack caused should not have happened.

Basic natural spiritual rational advice.

As family humans are first.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
Teachers. Men. Theist.

You think about earths O one God body conditions.

How it affected your life.

If you teach Muhammad is the last and only did it mean....
Falling star first was fallen. Burning.

Then life on earth cooled evolved. No science.

Then science was practiced heating burning up removing stone. In mother's laws space cold ownership as ship is just Form. The one God form.

So life was attacked making Muhammad the warning last and only messenger only god O earth teaching form is one.

No other reasoning as it was already taught.

Do you expect it to arrive at the end to destroy what man built cities as the one and only true teaching against man's science?

As science began science only then it only ended science.

As only god is one and no man is God teaching,?


God is one :) Says so from Adam to Mohammad pbuh. Science proves Allah's blessings to mankind if they only take heed and yet we don't need science to prove anything. :) In Islam, there will come a day, a day of 50,000 years and that day is The Day of Judgement, where everyone will be held accountable for their own actions. :)


I don't know how you express yourself, but if you need to ask a question can you just ask straight forward?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam @MyM

Bahais don't believe in the day of judgment in the way Muslims do. So if something is that clear in Quran, but they twist it to be about Baha'allah, it doesn't matter how clear Quran and Sunnah is about that there is no Prophet after Mohammad (s), they will resort to sophistry.

@InvestigateTruth it doesn't matter even if Quran says explicitly that 12th Imam is son of Hassan Al-Askari (a), your way would deny that meaning and say it means metaphor this and that etc... Just as you do with hadiths.

In other words, you've made it impossible for God to clarify what he wishes to clarify. God said Mohammad (S) is the stop end of all Nabis, it's clear, there is no reason for Muslims to look for Anbiya after Mohammad (s) unless those Anbiya say Quran is distorted. Maybe that would have been a better strategy than twisting God's words.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam @MyM

The Quran talks about intercession through out.

If intercession to Rasool (s) is not shirk during his life, but praised, then him passing away would not raise him into a station that is worshipped either if we talk to him. This unless, you say the position of hearing us from unseen would make him on par with God.

This is from a Quranic perspective, God warning us of hypocrites mentions:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا يَسْتَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ لَوَّوْا رُءُوسَهُمْ وَرَأَيْتَهُمْ يَصُدُّونَ وَهُمْ مُسْتَكْبِرُونَ | When they are told, ‘Come, that Allah’s Messenger may plead for forgiveness for you,’ they twist their heads, and you see them turn away disdainfully. | Al-Munaafiqoon : 5

It's convenient now to make an excuse and say he is dead, so we can't seek his intercession and come to him that he asks forgiveness for us! I will deal with the dead issue later in the post.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا | We did not send any apostle but to be obeyed by Allah’s leave. Had they, when they wronged themselves, come to you and pleaded to Allah for forgiveness, and the Messenger had pleaded for them [to Allah]for forgiveness, they would have surely found Allah all-clement, all-merciful. | An-Nisaa : 64

وَمِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ مَنْ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَيَتَّخِذُ مَا يُنْفِقُ قُرُبَاتٍ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَصَلَوَاتِ الرَّسُولِ ۚ أَلَا إِنَّهَا قُرْبَةٌ لَهُمْ ۚ سَيُدْخِلُهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي رَحْمَتِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ | Yet among the Bedouins are [also] those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and regard what they spend as [a means of attaining] nearness to Allah and the blessings of the Messenger. Now, it shall indeed bring them nearness, and Allah will admit them into His mercy. Indeed Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful. | At-Tawba : 99

خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً تُطَهِّرُهُمْ وَتُزَكِّيهِمْ بِهَا وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ ۖ إِنَّ صَلَاتَكَ سَكَنٌ لَهُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ | Take charity from their possessions to cleanse them and purify them thereby, and bless them. Indeed your blessing is a comfort to them, and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. | At-Tawba : 103


Now comes the issue, how does Rasool (s) hear us, the Quran talks about him as a witness to our deeds:

يَعْتَذِرُونَ إِلَيْكُمْ إِذَا رَجَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ قُلْ لَا تَعْتَذِرُوا لَنْ نُؤْمِنَ لَكُمْ قَدْ نَبَّأَنَا اللَّهُ مِنْ أَخْبَارِكُمْ ۚ وَسَيَرَى اللَّهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ ثُمَّ تُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ | They will offer you excuses when you return to them. Say, ‘Do not make excuses; we will never believe you. Allah has informed us of your state of affairs. Allah and His Messenger will observe your conduct, then you will be returned to the Knower of the sensible and the Unseen, and He will inform you concerning what you used to do.’ | At-Tawba : 94

Now the issue comes, did this role stop after his death?

The Quran through a series of verses:

فَإِنْ كُنْتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِمَّا أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ ۚ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ | So if you are in doubt about what We have sent down to you, ask those who recite the Book [revealed] before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord; so do not be among the skeptics. | Yunus : 94

Those who recite the book we will see are not ahlul-Kitab but the Messengers, the Quran also says:

وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ | Ask those of Our Messengers We have sent before you: Did We set up any gods to be worshipped besides the All-beneficent? | Az-Zukhruf : 45

This is important, because it says he can ask of the Messengers God sent, and it's particularly Musa and his successors, and the proof of that is, if Mohammad (s) was ignorant, he would be required to seek the family of the reminder in terms of miracles and clarification:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۖ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ | We did not send [any apostles] before you except as men to whom We revealed therefore Ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. | Al-Anbiyaa : 7


The ask Messengers before you shows if Mohammad (s) was in doubt of Tawhid, he can simply get in contact and know the Messengers before him, this is rhetorical, saying Messengers of the past would all confirm tawhid, and not just that, but people if they get contact spiritually with Messengers, they would lead them to the current Guides of the times and confirm Mohammad (s).

The family of the reminder is Mohammad's (s) family, but if it wasn't him who was the last reminder of the time, and him and his people were ignorant, Quran is saying then in this case, they would be required to seek the family of the reminder which would be Moses and Aaron and their holy family. If it was wrong to talk to the Messengers of the past, the rhetorical command would not make sense.

More is to be said, the Quran talking of the sky reality:


وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 35


This shows if Mohammad (s) can connect people to this reality, he would, but it's not his fault people turn away.

Surah Hijr expands on why he doesn't connect them:

وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ | Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ | they would surely say, ‘Indeed a spell has been cast on our eyes; indeed, we are a bewitched lot.’ | Al-Hijr : 15

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ | Certainly We have made mansions in the sky and adorned them for the onlookers, | Al-Hijr : 16

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ | and We have guarded it from every outcast Satan, | Al-Hijr : 17

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ | except someone who may eavesdrop, whereat there pursues him a manifest flame. | Al-Hijr : 18


There are many verses that show the position of the great stars in the sky in this world. This means they are spiritually connected and meant to be seen.

The parable of light also describes the light to be found in houses God permitted to be risen and his name remembered in, and these are the households chosen of the past till now.

Likewise, the Ahlulbayt of Ayub (a) was with him in moments of trial and the likes of them also with him (past Ahlulbayts).
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
Salam @MyM

The Quran talks about intercession through out.

If intercession to Rasool (s) is not shirk during his life, but praised, then him passing away would not raise him into a station that is worshipped either if we talk to him. This unless, you say the position of hearing us from unseen would make him on par with God.

This is from a Quranic perspective, God warning us of hypocrites mentions:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا يَسْتَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ لَوَّوْا رُءُوسَهُمْ وَرَأَيْتَهُمْ يَصُدُّونَ وَهُمْ مُسْتَكْبِرُونَ | When they are told, ‘Come, that Allah’s Messenger may plead for forgiveness for you,’ they twist their heads, and you see them turn away disdainfully. | Al-Munaafiqoon : 5

It's convenient now to make an excuse and say he is dead, so we can't seek his intercession and come to him that he asks forgiveness for us! I will deal with the dead issue later in the post.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا | We did not send any apostle but to be obeyed by Allah’s leave. Had they, when they wronged themselves, come to you and pleaded to Allah for forgiveness, and the Messenger had pleaded for them [to Allah]for forgiveness, they would have surely found Allah all-clement, all-merciful. | An-Nisaa : 64

وَمِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ مَنْ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَيَتَّخِذُ مَا يُنْفِقُ قُرُبَاتٍ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَصَلَوَاتِ الرَّسُولِ ۚ أَلَا إِنَّهَا قُرْبَةٌ لَهُمْ ۚ سَيُدْخِلُهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي رَحْمَتِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ | Yet among the Bedouins are [also] those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and regard what they spend as [a means of attaining] nearness to Allah and the blessings of the Messenger. Now, it shall indeed bring them nearness, and Allah will admit them into His mercy. Indeed Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful. | At-Tawba : 99

خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً تُطَهِّرُهُمْ وَتُزَكِّيهِمْ بِهَا وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ ۖ إِنَّ صَلَاتَكَ سَكَنٌ لَهُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ | Take charity from their possessions to cleanse them and purify them thereby, and bless them. Indeed your blessing is a comfort to them, and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. | At-Tawba : 103


Now comes the issue, how does Rasool (s) hear us, the Quran talks about him as a witness to our deeds:

يَعْتَذِرُونَ إِلَيْكُمْ إِذَا رَجَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ قُلْ لَا تَعْتَذِرُوا لَنْ نُؤْمِنَ لَكُمْ قَدْ نَبَّأَنَا اللَّهُ مِنْ أَخْبَارِكُمْ ۚ وَسَيَرَى اللَّهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ ثُمَّ تُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ | They will offer you excuses when you return to them. Say, ‘Do not make excuses; we will never believe you. Allah has informed us of your state of affairs. Allah and His Messenger will observe your conduct, then you will be returned to the Knower of the sensible and the Unseen, and He will inform you concerning what you used to do.’ | At-Tawba : 94

Now the issue comes, did this role stop after his death?

The Quran through a series of verses:

فَإِنْ كُنْتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِمَّا أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ ۚ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ | So if you are in doubt about what We have sent down to you, ask those who recite the Book [revealed] before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord; so do not be among the skeptics. | Yunus : 94

Those who recite the book we will see are not ahlul-Kitab but the Messengers, the Quran also says:

وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ | Ask those of Our Messengers We have sent before you: Did We set up any gods to be worshipped besides the All-beneficent? | Az-Zukhruf : 45

This is important, because it says he can ask of the Messengers God sent, and it's particularly Musa and his successors, and the proof of that is, if Mohammad (s) was ignorant, he would be required to seek the family of the reminder in terms of miracles and clarification:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۖ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ | We did not send [any apostles] before you except as men to whom We revealed therefore Ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. | Al-Anbiyaa : 7


The ask Messengers before you shows if Mohammad (s) was in doubt of Tawhid, he can simply get in contact and know the Messengers before him, this is rhetorical, saying Messengers of the past would all confirm tawhid, and not just that, but people if they get contact spiritually with Messengers, they would lead them to the current Guides of the times and confirm Mohammad (s).

The family of the reminder is Mohammad's (s) family, but if it wasn't him who was the last reminder of the time, and him and his people were ignorant, Quran is saying then in this case, they would be required to seek the family of the reminder which would be Moses and Aaron and their holy family. If it was wrong to talk to the Messengers of the past, the rhetorical command would not make sense.

More is to be said, the Quran talking of the sky reality:


وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 35


This shows if Mohammad (s) can connect people to this reality, he would, but it's not his fault people turn away.

Surah Hijr expands on why he doesn't connect them:

وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ | Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ | they would surely say, ‘Indeed a spell has been cast on our eyes; indeed, we are a bewitched lot.’ | Al-Hijr : 15

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ | Certainly We have made mansions in the sky and adorned them for the onlookers, | Al-Hijr : 16

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ | and We have guarded it from every outcast Satan, | Al-Hijr : 17

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ | except someone who may eavesdrop, whereat there pursues him a manifest flame. | Al-Hijr : 18


There are many verses that show the position of the great stars in the sky in this world. This means they are spiritually connected and meant to be seen.

The parable of light also describes the light to be found in houses God permitted to be risen and his name remembered in, and these are the households chosen of the past till now.

Likewise, the Ahlulbayt of Ayub (a) was with him in moments of trial and the likes of them also with him (past Ahlulbayts).

Assalamu'laykum,

None of these verses are saying to Pray to Mohammad pbuh and Allah would NEVER say to do that. Mohammad pbuh taught us when he was alive to not pray to the dead. Allah says in the Quran they will never hear you or answer you. I don't see how you can pick and choose to say it is ok when it is clearly talked about as shirk. Mohammad pbuh never told us to pray to him to get to Allah to answer prayers. EVER. Islam has done away with all the intermediaries and shirk and that is the beauty of it. One God, and you go straight to him and remember what Abu Bakr said when Mohammad pbuh passed?

“Whoever used to worship Muhammad, Muhammad has died, but whoever used to worship Allah, Allah is Alive and will never die.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari)

“And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you [Faatir 35:13-14]

It is not permissible in Islam to call upon the dead even if it's Mohammad pbuh. That is 100% shirk. For Allah is THE ONLY ONE we are to call upon.
 

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Assalamu'laykum,

None of these verses are saying to Pray to Mohammad pbuh and Allah would NEVER say to do that. Mohammad pbuh taught us when he was alive to not pray to the dead. Allah says in the Quran they will never hear you or answer you. I don't see how you can pick and choose to say it is ok when it is clearly talked about as shirk. Mohammad pbuh never told us to pray to him to get to Allah to answer prayers. EVER. Islam has done away with all the intermediaries and shirk and that is the beauty of it. One God, and you go straight to him and remember what Abu Bakr said when Mohammad pbuh passed?

“Whoever used to worship Muhammad, Muhammad has died, but whoever used to worship Allah, Allah is Alive and will never die.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari)

“And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you [Faatir 35:13-14]

It is not permissible in Islam to call upon the dead even if it's Mohammad pbuh. That is 100% shirk. For Allah is THE ONLY ONE we are to call upon.

Salam

Talking to Rasool (a) and asking him to intercede and help you does not mean you are praying (worshipping him). Du'a in most places means prayer and that includes Worship or is in fact Worshiping them. In fact, it's hypocrisy to not seek his intercession per Quran.

It's getting to the point I am repeating, but this is one of the verses I used to support:


وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ | Ask of those who sent from our Messengers before you: Did We set up any gods to be worshipped besides the All-beneficent? | Az-Zukhruf : 45

If It was shirk to ask Messengers (a) before him the rhetorical part of this would not make sense.

Also, it doesn't make sense for God to reveal a trait of hypocrisy to guide humanity regarding hypocrites, only for it not to apply once Rasool (s) dies.
 

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Salam

And to me, the way Quran emphasizes to seek the means, is that we are to call upon God through them and with them on our side. This recognition is peak of faith where we recognize they are always with us and this connection is only made possible through the Imam of our time who connects heaven and earth.

They are light with all things, and so if we are to use them to worship God and travel to God. Disconnecting them is disconnecting from God's help in this world and next through his light.

This is why Quran emphasizes:


يَعْتَذِرُونَ إِلَيْكُمْ إِذَا رَجَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ قُلْ لَا تَعْتَذِرُوا لَنْ نُؤْمِنَ لَكُمْ قَدْ نَبَّأَنَا اللَّهُ مِنْ أَخْبَارِكُمْ ۚ وَسَيَرَى اللَّهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ ثُمَّ تُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ | They will offer you excuses when you return to them. Say, ‘Do not make excuses; we will never believe you. Allah has informed us of your state of affairs. Allah and His Messenger will observe your conduct, then you will be returned to the Knower of the sensible and the Unseen, and He will inform you concerning what you used to do.’ | At-Tawba : 94

Allah (swt) and his Messenger witness, and the witnesses spoken in Quran, also witness our deeds. The Quran says "and we write down their tracks and everything (in this regard) we have encompassed in a manifest leader" and said "the day we call every people with their leader" and "The day we call every people with a witness from themselves" and "and came with it every soul a driver and a witness" "and for every people there is a guide" and "every soul has upon it a guardian" and yet says "whoever God misguides you will not find him a guide" and said "the guidance of God is the guidance".


Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) is words of Quran, but not only the physical words, but how they are written in all the heavens and through out the levels of creation back to Luhal Mafooth which is Mohammad's (s) heart.

The Unseen light of Mohammad (s) thus is connected to the Nubuwa outward of Quran. The Imam of our time is light and with all things. His family is also connected to him. They are the visited family in the heaven connected to this world.

Allah (swt) talks about Ibrahim (a) recognizing the light even if dim as a star in the dark night of his soul is Allah (swt). This is how the journey starts, we see the light from a distance, it's dim, but it's Allah (Swt) who is the light of it.

Allah (swt) is the light of all light and the beautiful names of God guide by the truth towards God. We are to make the truth of our vision towards God. The Imam is that light that can lead us back to God. They point to God and are linked to him.

They make us recognize the proper balance of his traits and titles, because they are the light of God.

As I shared the lanterns in the sky of this world is linked to faith and vision of those lights is part of how God perfects faith of believers "light upon light, God guides to his light who he pleases..." and "and have made it an adornment in the vision of those who look"

Allah (swt) could of just send books down from sky. But he sends them with a channel of revelation ( A Nabi) because there's more to it, then simply words. There is a reality and that Nabi becomes the Imam that the revelation he reveals calls to.

The Anbiya in the past were are all Imams in the unseen journey. However, the last Twelve Imams were not revealed books coupled with them, rather Quran is the end.

However, the reality Quran calls to and reminds of, is their light. The journey to God is Unseen because God is beyond all and hidden beyond all vision forever. We are to travel to God through the proper Navigators and Captains of the ship of salvation "by the name of God is it's sailing and anchoring..." and "And We made them Imams who guide by our Command..."
 
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MyM

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Salam

Talking to Rasool (a) and asking him to intercede and help you does not mean you are praying (worshipping him). Du'a in most places means prayer and that includes Worship or is in fact Worshiping them. In fact, it's hypocrisy to not seek his intercession per Quran.

It's getting to the point I am repeating, but this is one of the verses I used to support:


وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ | Ask of those who sent from our Messengers before you: Did We set up any gods to be worshipped besides the All-beneficent? | Az-Zukhruf : 45

If It was shirk to ask Messengers (a) before him the rhetorical part of this would not make sense.

Also, it doesn't make sense for God to reveal a trait of hypocrisy to guide humanity regarding hypocrites, only for it not to apply once Rasool (s) dies.


And ask whom We sent before you of Our Messengers: "Did We ever appoint gods to be worshipped besides the Most Gracious?'' Is NOT STATING to ask of the dead. It was a question :) it means all the Messengers called their people to the same as that to which you are calling mankind, namely the worship of Allah Alone with no partner or associate, and they forbade the worship of idols and false gods.

That is not enough "proof" to call upon the dead :) He's talking directly to Mohammad pbuh a confirmation from Allah to him that all prophets from Adam to Mohammad called for the same thing to worship none other than Allah.

Ibn Abass, gave tafseer that this is when he went up to Miraj :)
 

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And ask whom We sent before you of Our Messengers: "Did We ever appoint gods to be worshipped besides the Most Gracious?'' Is NOT STATING to ask of the dead. It was a question :) it means all the Messengers called their people to the same as that to which you are calling mankind, namely the worship of Allah Alone with no partner or associate, and they forbade the worship of idols and false gods.

That is not enough "proof" to call upon the dead :) He's talking directly to Mohammad pbuh a confirmation from Allah to him that all prophets from Adam to Mohammad called for the same thing to worship none other than Allah.

Ibn Abass, gave tafseer that this is when he went up to Miraj :)

Your point of Miraaj might humble my point a bit if it was isolated but the point remains he talking to dead people and it's not shirk. Miraaj of Mohammad (s) is supposed to show a reality we are supposed to connect to anyways.

But if you see other verses that say "if you are in doubt" "if you don't know", they interpret that one and show that believers too should seek the family of the reminder, if not Mohammad's (s) family, it would be a different chosen family and set of Messengers and different family given the book. And this to guide believers to seek the family of the reminder of their time.
 

InvestigateTruth

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Salam @MyM

Bahais don't believe in the day of judgment in the way Muslims do. So if something is that clear in Quran, but they twist it to be about Baha'allah, it doesn't matter how clear Quran and Sunnah is about that there is no Prophet after Mohammad (s), they will resort to sophistry.

@InvestigateTruth it doesn't matter even if Quran says explicitly that 12th Imam is son of Hassan Al-Askari (a), your way would deny that meaning and say it means metaphor this and that etc... Just as you do with hadiths.

In other words, you've made it impossible for God to clarify what he wishes to clarify. God said Mohammad (S) is the stop end of all Nabis, it's clear, there is no reason for Muslims to look for Anbiya after Mohammad (s) unless those Anbiya say Quran is distorted. Maybe that would have been a better strategy than twisting God's words.
You may think, I am using strategy to show that Revelations after Muhammad is possible.
But I am not really into strategy because it has no benefit for me to convince others.
I am just sharing my view here.

You call it sophistry because, on one hand it has a basis in Quran and Traditions and on the other hand, it appears to be deceiving.

It is because on one hand I am putting everything from traditions, so, it cannot be proved wrong, but on the other hand, since you have firmly believed that Bahai Faith is false, and there was a 12 Imam, son of Hasan, you think I must be playing with words to deceive.
This is why they have said Bahais are misguided and misguiding (ضاله و مضله)


But in my view God can misguide just He can guide as He said:

وَمَكَرُوا۟ وَمَكَرَ ٱللَّهُ ۖ وَٱللَّهُ خَيْرُ ٱلْمَكِرِينَ ‎

And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of devisers Quran 3:54

Now, of course some say this verse does not mean He deceives everyone. I know, but if anyone tries to play with words of Allah to suit themselves and thereby reject the truth, Allah Himself misguides them.

I mean, God intentionally said Muhammad is the Seal of Prophets. Therefore unless we do not make an effort we are misguided by such terms.
Did not Prophet say, "Ali is seal of believers and I am seal of Prophets?"
علي خاتم الوصيين و انا خاتم النبيين.

So, Religion has never been straightforward. If it was, then every Prophet was accepted by people, whereas always the majority rejected the truth.

Did not God say to Jews that He will resend Eligah again, but when John یوحنا came, Jesus said this is Elijah but they did not recognize him, as it is recorded in the Gospel:

Jesus said: "But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. . Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist" Mathew 17:12-13

Now, aren't these sophistry to you? Jesus said, this John is the Elijah who has returned. You say no, but now if God did the same thing and said this Bahaullah is the return of Christ, sure you think this is sophistry. That has been always the case, that people think a Person who claims to be a Messenger is a liar or impostor.
 
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InvestigateTruth

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Salam

Talking to Rasool (a) and asking him to intercede and help you does not mean you are praying (worshipping him). Du'a in most places means prayer and that includes Worship or is in fact Worshiping them. In fact, it's hypocrisy to not seek his intercession per Quran.

It's getting to the point I am repeating, but this is one of the verses I used to support:


وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ | Ask of those who sent from our Messengers before you: Did We set up any gods to be worshipped besides the All-beneficent? | Az-Zukhruf : 45

If It was shirk to ask Messengers (a) before him the rhetorical part of this would not make sense.

Also, it doesn't make sense for God to reveal a trait of hypocrisy to guide humanity regarding hypocrites, only for it not to apply once Rasool (s) dies.
Looks like sometimes God did ask to worship prophets.
1. God asked everyone to fall in prostration to Adam.
2. In the story of Joseph, Surrah 12, at the end of story, Prophet Yaghoub, His wife and the brothers fell in Prostration to Joseph.

Mind you the Imams have said the story of Joseph is an allusion to the story of the Qaim.
meaning, his brothers (Muslims), will not recognize Him for a period of time and plot darkly against Him, but eventually they recognize Him and believe.

So, it is upto God. If He asks anything, the Submitters submit even if they do not like it.
God tests submission by asking mankind to do something they dislike.

For example in Quran Muhammad changed Qibla, and Allah said the only reason we changed Qibla, is to test them.
He always asks something people tend to resist, and that is how submission is tested. He told Abraham to sacrifice His son.
 

TransmutingSoul

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Salam @MyM.
@InvestigateTruth In other words, you've made it impossible for God to clarify what he wishes to clarify. God said Mohammad (S) is the stop end of all Nabis, it's clear, there is no reason for Muslims to look for Anbiya after Mohammad (s) unless those Anbiya say Quran is distorted. Maybe that would have been a better strategy than twisting God's words.

It could be that Islam has made it impossible for God to clarify what Muhammad offered by preferring their own opinions over the ideas given in a Message, given by a Messenger sent by God.

The likelihood that is the case, reflects the history of religion, so that is close to 100% likely.

It also indicates that the Message of Baha’u’llah is just as likely to be of God, by the persecutions dished out to the Messenger by Islam, which history proves is also 100% likely to happen when God sends a new Messenger.

Regards Tony
 
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You call it sophistry because, on one hand it has a basis in Quran and Traditions and on the other hand, it appears to be deceiving.

Day of judgment is what it is. If you can't see that, then you won't see what is even less clear. I'm trying to help you. You misguide and deceive only yourself.

I am saying Baha'allah was better of saying Quran is distorted then playing it means Mohamad is first and last and all Prophets are each other meaning game.

Do you not understand you've made it literally by your sophistry impossible for God to say certain things? It does not matter how God words it, it becomes a game for you to twist his words.

With your sophistry games, there's nothing left of Quran that can be clear. Not even Tawhid.
 

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وَمَكَرُوا۟ وَمَكَرَ ٱللَّهُ ۖ وَٱللَّهُ خَيْرُ ٱلْمَكِرِينَ ‎

And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of devisers Quran 3:54

You are mixing everything up. Quran says divisions only happen after clear proofs and knowledge come to the people.

For example Prophet (S) says "I am leaving you two weights, Quran and my Itra (offspring), my family, the two shall not separate until they return to me at the pond" and emphasizes "Whoever I am his Mawla of, then Ali is his Mawla of".

People can play linguistic games and twist what Rasool (s) said, or submit. This is the real test.

It's based on what is clear. If people submit to what is clear, everything becomes easy in the religion. If people mix with it doubts and ambiguities, Quran becomes a book of darkness and doesn't increase the people but in loss, as it states itself.
 

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It could be that Islam has made it impossible for God to clarify what Muhammad offered by preferring their own opinions over the ideas given in a Message, given by a Messenger sent by God.

This is true, but Bahais amplify this word playing game with ambiguity reliance as opposed to what is clear in Quran. If we go by your methods, even Tawhid will not be clear in Quran.
 

TransmutingSoul

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[
This is true, but Bahais amplify this word playing game with ambiguity reliance as opposed to what is clear in Quran. If we go by your methods, even Tawhid will not be clear in Quran.

The key here is that as a Baha'i I have embraced and submitted to Muhammad and the Quran being from One God.

The Baha'i have now brought the Quran to peoples of all Faiths and Nations and they also embrace Muhammad and the Quran.

We offer the peace and the unity, with submission to God's Law, that was the Message of Muhammad, we build strong communities that make a strong Nations, that will result in a united world under the guidance of One God.

There is naught but God in all that, there is no self, no evil.

This is the day of Judgment, Regards Tony
 
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