Where does the Quran say Muhammad is the last Messenger of God?

[InvestigateTruth]

You are mixing everything up. Quran says divisions only happen after clear proofs and knowledge come to the people.

For example Prophet (S) says "I am leaving you two weights, Quran and my Itra (offspring), my family, the two shall not separate until they return to me at the pond" and emphasizes "Whoever I am his Mawla of, then Ali is his Mawla of".

People can play linguistic games and twist what Rasool (s) said, or submit. This is the real test.

It's based on what is clear. If people submit to what is clear, everything becomes easy in the religion. If people mix with it doubts and ambiguities, Quran becomes a book of darkness and doesn't increase the people but in loss, as it states itself.

Oh, does not Gof seal the hearts of those who reject Messengers?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Day of judgment is what it is. If you can't see that, then you won't see what is even less clear. I'm trying to help you. You misguide and deceive only yourself.

I am saying Baha'allah was better of saying Quran is distorted then playing it means Mohamad is first and last and all Prophets are each other meaning game.

Do you not understand you've made it literally by your sophistry impossible for God to say certain things? It does not matter how God words it, it becomes a game for you to twist his words.

With your sophistry games, there's nothing left of Quran that can be clear. Not even Tawhid.

The Quran itself says, on the Day of Judgement, humanity meets with God. Then Imam Baghir says it means meeting with the Mahdi in Iraq.
How else could people meet the invisible God,, if that is not meeting with His representative?

Mind you Bahaullah made His public declaration in Iraq. Now, that a Person came who matches every single Hadith and verse, surely they think this is sophistry.

So, then you don't believe the Shia Imams who said Day of Resurrection is Day of Rise of Qaim. Fine.

How do you know Day of Judgement verses are not Mutishabihat?

I suggest, God can only say which verses are Mutishabihat. And God does not speak except through the Messengers.
In this case that is upto the Mahdi. If Mahdi tells us, they are Mutishabihat we would believe Him.
Mind you, it is said When Mahdi comes, people argue with Him using Quran!.

Now, of course when a Messengers says something that contradicts with what people believe, they think He is a false prophet.

 

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Oh, does not Gof seal the hearts of those who reject Messengers?

Messengers always have clear proofs. This is what is lacking in your religion. It's built on ambiguity. And your scriptures lack eloquence the Quran has. Your scholars of your religion cannot manifest no where the signs of eloquence and majestic features Quran has with respect to your books. This is just a fact.

God always replaces one sign with one like it or better then it. Your books are not better then Quran, they come no where near it's level.

 

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The Quran itself says, on the Day of Judgement, humanity meets with God. Then Imam Baghir says it means meeting with the Mahdi in Iraq.
How else could people meet the invisible God,, if that is not meeting with His representative?

Mind you Bahaullah made His public declaration in Iraq. Now, that a Person came who matches every single Hadith and verse, surely they think this is sophistry.

So, then you don't believe the Shia Imams who said Day of Resurrection is Day of Rise of Qaim. Fine.

How do you know Day of Judgement verses are not Mutishabihat?

I suggest, God can only say which verses are Mutishabihat. And God does not speak except through the Messengers.
In this case that is upto the Mahdi. If Mahdi tells us, they are Mutishabihat we would believe Him.
Mind you, it is said When Mahdi comes, people argue with Him using Quran!.

Now, of course when a Messengers says something that contradicts with what people believe, they think He is a false prophet.

You don't understand the hadiths nor try to. But you have to build on what is clear. First understand day of judgment in Quran, then understand hadiths in light of that.

The unseen signs on day of judgment are about what? Like you said, no one can meet God, so nabal atheem is for example said to be Ali or Welayat of Ali. When they were asking why the proof Mohammad (s) is not shown signs to clearly prove him, day of judgment is introduced to be a day where signs of Mohammad (s) and his reality is so clear, but it will be too late. His reality is also linked with God and witnessing God. Their light is one, so this Bahais were right about, but they mixed all that too. Nuh (a) talks about the proof as well, and that will God force it on them while they are averse. Day of judgment is a day signs are forced, everyone knows the truth of Welayat of Mohammad (s). They will be blind to his beauty, but they will know he is truth. They will actually see him in ugly way and Allah (swt) will appear ugly like Angels appear ugly in graves to disbelievers. Day of judgment the truth is manifest so clear no one will deny. This repeated through out. Whatever degree the signs remain hidden of Ahlulbayt (a) is up to God... and Imam Mahdi (a) disappearing after death of Hassan Al-askari (a) hides the proof further, but this up to God per Quran to hide signs to whatever degree he wishes.

The hadiths are talking about a reality believers have with Imam Mahdi because the light of God on that day is them and so believers see reality of Ali and his Welayat before day of judgment. Now when Mahdi comes, believers see his light before he comes out and after.

The day of Judgment and the inward light of Mohammad (s) and signs and proofs are explained together.

The lanterns to the sky of this world is explained with it. The fact disbelievers can't handle witnessing the sky reality now or will say they are hallucinating or sorcery is done upon them, is part of all this explanation.

You have to let Quran explain it self.

So the hadiths have to do with that. But you are so bias, you can't understand anything of Shiite hadiths, but one way.

 

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How do you know Day of Judgement verses are not Mutishabihat?

To who, to most humans? Allah (swt) builds arguments for Nubuwa and Welayat with Day of judgment, it's not an optional belief. It has to be clear. And it is clear. And most of Quran is clear except with people who have serious darkness in their hearts. Unfortunately most of Muslims approach Quran with sorcery of Shayateen on them and don't take refuge. Otherwise the miracle lies in how clear it is. How clear it is insights, proofs, and preserving it's own meaning.

 

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We been told to love of Ahlulbayt (A) in this world so that we come to the same reality of them as signs of God per our will or at least come towards the light and unseen reality with some witnessing of the heart, while disbelievers will witness the same reality but be averse and be blind to it's beauty when it's too late on the day of judgment. This is repeated through out Quran.

Every people will be called with a driver/witness/Imam that was their guardian over their souls on the day of judgment, also called their Qareen of right hand (the close companion of the right hand) while the left handed Qareen was blind to it and lead the disbeliever away from God.

 

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The key here is that as a Baha'i I have embraced and submitted to Muhammad and the Quran being from One God.

The Baha'i have now brought the Quran to peoples of all Faiths and Nations and they also embrace Muhammad and the Quran.

We offer the peace and the unity, with submission to God's Law, that was the Message of Muhammad, we build strong communities that make a strong Nations, that will result in a united world under the guidance of One God.

There is naught but God in all that, there is no self, no evil.

This is the day of Judgment, Regards Tony

The Imams said whoever accepts an Imam not from God goes to hell. And the same thing, if we reject a Prophet or an Imam, as if we rejected them all.

So if Bahaism is true, Islam leads to hell. If Bahaism is false, Bahaism leads to hell.

This is how Quran has presented it too. You can't attribute leaders to God without proof either. This results in hell as well.

Equating words of humans with that of God's would be a huge insult to God's words as well.

The issue here is about proofs and signs of God. I gave Baha'allah more then his fair chance. He resorts to ambiguity from Du'a Nudbah which is from Imam Mahdi (a) and one of the Safeers passed it to us, to day of judgment, to seal of Prophets meaning all Prophets are each other meaning, it's disgusting. This guy you put on level of Mohammad (S) and Ali (A)? That too results in hell if he is a fake Prophet.

Du'a Nudbah you find the concepts that there is an Imam in all times clear. You talk to Imam Mahdi (a) in that and hope to meet him sometime, that he finds a way to meet you. In that you say there is no Nabi after Mohammad (s). You also talk about the concept of a Baqiyatallah that never is gone from the guided offspring. And you talk about how he is the connection between earth and heavens and God's face by which the friends of God turn to God through.

Read it, itself refutes Bahai faith which doesn't have a present Imam, no one to be God's face right now, no light on earth right now, no baqiyatallah in the guided offspring. He should never acknowledged a du'a that completely refutes his religion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Messengers always have clear proofs. This is what is lacking in your religion. It's built on ambiguity. And your scriptures lack eloquence the Quran has. Your scholars of your religion cannot manifest no where the signs of eloquence and majestic features Quran has with respect to your books. This is just a fact.

God always replaces one sign with one like it or better then it. Your books are not better then Quran, they come no where near it's level.

Revealing verses are the proof itself. If we think that isnt the proof, we could not believe in Muhammad either. Did not Muhammad say, His proof is the Surrahs of the Quran, when the disbelievers asked Him perform miracles?

 

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Revealing verses are the proof itself. If we think that isnt the proof, we could not believe in Muhammad either. Did not Muhammad say, His proof is the Surrahs of the Quran, when the disbelievers asked Him perform miracles?

He performed miracles. But I would agree with you if you had scripture on par or more eloquent then Quran it would be proof. You simply don't. It's garbage.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

To who, to most humans? Allah (swt) builds arguments for Nubuwa and Welayat with Day of judgment, it's not an optional belief. It has to be clear. And it is clear. And most of Quran is clear except with people who have serious darkness in their hearts. Unfortunately most of Muslims approach Quran with sorcery of Shayateen on them and don't take refuge. Otherwise the miracle lies in how clear it is. How clear it is insights, proofs, and preserving it's own meaning.

Yes, in my view, we are supposed to recognize what is clear and what is Mutiahabihaat, but only, the Infallibles (راسخون في العلم) would know for sure.

Beside that, in Quran there is keyword I believe it tells us the verses of Day of Judgement would be fulfilled according to their hidden and symbolic meanings:


‏هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا تَأْوِيلَهُۥ ۚ يَوْمَ يَأْتِى تَأْوِيلُهُۥ يَقُولُ ٱلَّذِينَ نَسُوهُ مِن قَبْلُ قَدْ جَآءَتْ رُسُلُ رَبِّنَا بِٱلْحَقِّ فَهَل لَّنَا مِن شُفَعَآءَ فَيَشْفَعُوا۟ لَنَآ أَوْ نُرَدُّ فَنَعْمَلَ غَيْرَ ٱلَّذِى كُنَّا نَعْمَلُ ۚ قَدْ خَسِرُوٓا۟ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَضَلَّ عَنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا۟ يَفْتَرُونَ


"Are they [the unbelievers] waiting for the final prophecy to unfold? On the Day when its final meaning will unfolded, those who ignored it before will say, "Our Lord's Messengers spoke the Truth. Is there anyone to intercede for us now? Or, could we be brought back [to life] so that we might behave differently than how we behaved before?" They will have lost their souls and all the lies they had invented will have forsaken them." 7:53


That keyword is تاويل Taweel.

In all verses this word means fulfilment or interpretation of Mutishabihat, or such sayings which are not clear.

Examples of this word is in verse 3:7, which says No one knows Taweel of the Mutishabihat verses. So, the fact that, the Quran in verse 7:53, talks about Taweel of the Resurrection Day, it means, verses about Day of Resurrection are Mutishabihat, and then their Taweel will come, then we know what it means.

 

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Yes, in my view, we are supposed to recognize what is clear and what is Mutiahabihaat, but only, the Infallibles (راسخون في العلم) would know for sure.

Beside that, in Quran there is keyword I believe it tells us the verses of Day of Judgement would be fulfilled according to their hidden and symbolic meanings:


‏هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا تَأْوِيلَهُۥ ۚ يَوْمَ يَأْتِى تَأْوِيلُهُۥ يَقُولُ ٱلَّذِينَ نَسُوهُ مِن قَبْلُ قَدْ جَآءَتْ رُسُلُ رَبِّنَا بِٱلْحَقِّ فَهَل لَّنَا مِن شُفَعَآءَ فَيَشْفَعُوا۟ لَنَآ أَوْ نُرَدُّ فَنَعْمَلَ غَيْرَ ٱلَّذِى كُنَّا نَعْمَلُ ۚ قَدْ خَسِرُوٓا۟ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَضَلَّ عَنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا۟ يَفْتَرُونَ


"Are they [the unbelievers] waiting for the final prophecy to unfold? On the Day when its final meaning will unfolded, those who ignored it before will say, "Our Lord's Messengers spoke the Truth. Is there anyone to intercede for us now? Or, could we be brought back [to life] so that we might behave differently than how we behaved before?" They will have lost their souls and all the lies they had invented will have forsaken them." 7:53


That keyword is تاويل Taweel.

In all verses this word means fulfilment or interpretation of Mutishabihat, or such sayings which are not clear.

Examples of this word is in verse 3:7, which says No one knows Taweel of the Mutishabihat verses. So, the fact that, the Quran in verse 7:53, talks about Taweel of the Resurrection Day, it means, verses about Day of Resurrection are Mutishabihat, and then their Taweel will come, then we know what it means.

Another example of it is 4:59 there it clearly means "end". You don't know Arabic to talk about this. But let me clarify, Arabic words have multiple meaning.

 

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Yes, in my view, we are supposed to recognize what is clear and what is Mutiahabihaat, but only, the Infallibles (راسخون في العلم) would know for sure.

Not true. We can know for sure what is clear to us. The more faith in God's signs and more you reflect, the more of Quran becomes clear. If you reflect the proper way and build on what is clear.

Unfortunately you built on a web of doubts and misinformation, and lopsided interpretations of Quran and hadiths.

The last day and day of judgment is something all humans are expected to believe per Quran. It has to be something clear to most humans in understanding.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

He performed miracles. But I would agree with you if you had scripture on par or more eloquent then Quran it would be proof. You simply don't. It's garbage.

But, according to history, some of the well-known Muslims scholars believed in Bahaullah because they saw He was revealing verses fast and eloquent.

Moreover, one of the arguments that the Bab made, was, God does not allow a false prophet to bring verses and say these are words and commands of God, thereby misleading the believers, as God will cut the neck vain of such imposter, thus, when the Bab could bring verses, they must be from God.
This is consistent with Quran, as in it, Allah says if Muhammad was making up verses which are really from God, Allah would cut His vain.

 

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But, according to history, some of the well-known Muslims scholars believed in Bahaullah because they saw He was revealing verses fast and eloquent.

Moreover, one of the arguments that the Bab made, was, God does not allow a false prophet to bring verses and say these are words and commands of God, thereby misleading the believers, perhaps God will cut theck vain of such imposter, thus, when the Bab could bring verses, they must be from God.
This is consistent with Quran, as in it, Allah says if Muhammad was making up verses which are really from God, Allah would cut His vain.

You are resorting to ambiguity. But let's check this with Maitreya. Maitreya is not accepted by Bahais but claims to believe in all Messengers which he includes Baha'allah in. Why is his neck vain not being cut off?

By your logic, Bahais have to accept the Maitreya as well.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The issue here is about proofs and signs of God. I gave Baha'allah more then his fair chance. He resorts to ambiguity from Du'a Nudbah which is from Imam Mahdi (a) and one of the Safeers passed it to us, to day of judgment, to seal of Prophets meaning all Prophets are each other meaning, it's disgusting. This guy you put on level of Mohammad (S) and Ali (A)? That too results in hell if he is a fake Prophet.

Baha'u'llah was banished from Persia as there was no Imam that could match Baha'u'llah in knowledge of the Quran, none that could refute the Message Baha'u'llah gave, without being found that they were lacking in knowledge.

You should consider that people will be judged against any remarks made in relation to Baha'u'llah, a Messenger of God.

I just offer, tread wisely, may God be with you always.

Regards Tony

 

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Baha'u'llah was banished from Persia as there was no Imam that could match Baha'u'llah in knowledge of the Quran, none that could refute the Message Baha'u'llah gave, without being found that they were lacking in knowledge.

You should consider that people will be judged against any remarks made in relation to Baha'u'llah, a Messenger of God.

I just offer, tread wisely, may God be with you always.

Regards Tony

You know the first time I read Al-Bayan from the Bab was in high school. I joined a Bahai forum back then. I forget which one it was, I don't think it exists anymore. I had a honest discussion about day of judgment after I saw Bahai explanation of it. It was also a discussion of 3:7. I understood by 3:7 day of judgment has to be clear. They argued that it's only clear to the chosen ones. I had a long discussion on this. At the end, I knew, they themselves don't believe day of judgment is CLEARLY about Baha'allah. It's not like how I believe Ulil-Amr is twisted by sorcery of Iblis and sunnis can't even contextualize it with respect to 4:54. It's not like how Shiites believe Sunnis twisting and turn away from Sunni hadiths about Ali (a). This is more like, it's so unclear, no one was meant to know the meaning, till now type meaning.

Most people don't even know about your faith. I knew it in high school. And my parents till I told them recently don't even know Bahai interpretation of day of judgment.

I also talked about Al-Bayan saying the Imams existed eternally with no beginning. I said how can that be true? I don't have a copy of it now and can't even find a full al-Bayan translated online anymore.


But the Bab claimed there the four Safirs were doors to Imam Mahdi (a) and that Ahlulbayt (a) existed without beginning. in Al-bayan he claims he is a door to the Mahdi not the Mahdi himself as well. I asked about this too and they just said it's abrogated. Laws can be abrogated but facts can't. If Bab said this, this can't change.

And so I realized your religion is filled with people not even aware of Bab's writings let alone Quran.

I brought a lot of day of judgment verses and I heard their (bahais) explanations, and I saw no sincerity in your people or religion.

They don't go to Quran to understand but to twist.

I realized this early.

Let's say the Mahdi is a going to be a Nabi and bring a new book. It definitely is not the Bab or Baha'allah that is that Mahdi.

Most bahais don't even check the rest of Du'a Nudbah that Ba'allah didn't quote.

 

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By the way, this what I mean by not educating oneself. Bahais quote "seal of Awsiya" for Ali, but what does this mean? It means, there is no one to succeed a Prophet (directly) after Ali (a). Ali is the last to succeed a Nabi (directly).

To prove this, let's see the hadith itself:

Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Al-Husayn ibn Yusuf al-Baghdadi narrated that Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Anbasa quoted on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn Soleiman al-Malti in the place of martyrdom of Ali ibn Abi Talib (ع), on the authority of Muhammad ibn Al-Qasim ibn Al-Abbas ibn Musa al-Alawi in Ibn Hobayras palace, and Darim ibn Qabaysa ibn Nahshal an-Nahshali that Ali ibn Musa ibn Jafar (ع) quoted on the authority of his father (ع), on the authority of his forefathers (ع), on the authority of Ali ibn Abi Talib (ع) that Gods Prophet (S) said, “O Ali I asked God for you whatever I asked Him for myself, except for Prophethood since God has said: There will be no Prophethood after you. You are the seal of the Prophets, and Ali is the seal of the Successors

• حدثنا محمد بن احمد بن الحسين بن يوسفالبغدادي قال حدثنا علي بن‏عنبسة قال حدثنا الحسن بن سليمان الملطي في مشهد علي بن ابي طالب‏ عليه السلام قال حدثنا محمد بن القاسم بن العباس بن موسي العلوي بقصر ابن هبيرة ودارم بن قبيصة بن نهشل النهشلي قالوا حدثنا علي بن موسي بن جعفر عليه السلام عن ابيه عن اباءه عن علي بن ابي طالب‏ عليه السلام قال قال رسول الله صلي الله عليه واله يا علي ما سالت انا ربي‏شيءا الا سالت لك مثله غير انه قال لا نبوة بعدك انت خاتم النبيين وعلي خاتم الوصيين

So the meaning of seal of successors, means, there will be no Wasi to a Nabi after Mohammad (s). Hassan (a) is successor of Ali (a), that is who he actually succeeds and INDIRECTLY a successor to Mohammad (s).


Do you see what I mean?

He is only one way interpreter and won't even check the hadiths and their context. Half quotes and decontextualization.

A hadith that shows there is NO Nubuwa after Mohammad (s) and uses Ali (a) as the seal of successors to imply there will never be in the future any Nabi to be succeeded by a successor, is taken totally out of context.

Yet we are supposed to believe he is representing the hadiths. When he won't even check their full context in other sources.

This is why I'm convinced they are people following conjecture and passions, not those of reason and looking for clear proofs and evidence.

They built on shallow ambiguities.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Another example of it is 4:59 there it clearly means "end". You don't know Arabic to talk about this. But let me clarify, Arabic words have multiple meaning.

Yes, in my understanding Taweel means only two things in the Quran. Either interpretation of the symbolic sayings | verses or final fulfuilment of the symbolic verses and sayings.

4:59 is also about the best fulfilment on the Last Day:



"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination"

It means, on the Last Day then, those who believe in God and the Last Day, their Final Fulfillment will be Heaven.

But mind you, there are other words which means "end", such as Akher أخر, but Taweel in Quran is a reference to final fulfilment of prophecies which are described with a symbolic language, and in case of 4:59, related to fulfilment of Last Day.

 

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Yes, in my understanding Taweel means only two things in the Quran. Either interpretation of the symbolic sayings | verses or final fulfuilment of the symbolic verses and sayings.

4:59 is also about the best fulfilment on the Last Day:



"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination"

It means, on the Last Day then, those who believe in God and the Last Day, their Final Fulfillment will be Heaven.

But mind you, there are other words which means "end", such as Akher أخر, but Taweel in Quran is a reference to final fulfilment of prophecies which are described with a symbolic language, and in case of 4:59, related to fulfilment of Last Day.

You have to check Arabic dictionary and try to build on what is clear. Again, you are building on unclear with respect to the verses you quote in Surah A'raaf.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Imams said whoever accepts an Imam not from God goes to hell. And the same thing, if we reject a Prophet or an Imam, as if we rejected them all.

So if Bahaism is true, Islam leads to hell. If Bahaism is false, Bahaism leads to hell.

This is how Quran has presented it too. You can't attribute leaders to God without proof either. This results in hell as well.

Equating words of humans with that of God's would be a huge insult to God's words as well.

The issue here is about proofs and signs of God. I gave Baha'allah more then his fair chance. He resorts to ambiguity from Du'a Nudbah which is from Imam Mahdi (a) and one of the Safeers passed it to us, to day of judgment, to seal of Prophets meaning all Prophets are each other meaning, it's disgusting. This guy you put on level of Mohammad (S) and Ali (A)? That too results in hell if he is a fake Prophet.

Du'a Nudbah you find the concepts that there is an Imam in all times clear. You talk to Imam Mahdi (a) in that and hope to meet him sometime, that he finds a way to meet you. In that you say there is no Nabi after Mohammad (s). You also talk about the concept of a Baqiyatallah that never is gone from the guided offspring. And you talk about how he is the connection between earth and heavens and God's face by which the friends of God turn to God through.

Read it, itself refutes Bahai faith which doesn't have a present Imam, no one to be God's face right now, no light on earth right now, no baqiyatallah in the guided offspring. He should never acknowledged a du'a that completely refutes his religion.

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Dua Nudbih is about Imam Mahdi, but it was not written by Imam Mahdi. It is from Imam Sadiq:

Muhammad Baqir Majlisi wrote this prayer in Zaad-ul-Maad from Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq.

Du'a Nudba - Wikipedia