Where is Logic in Religion?

[footprints]

Well lets see, his lack of religion seem to make him and people like him the most helpful and loving on the planet... That is quite a good thing to have I think.. Especially since I seen the societies secular people create (See Scandinavia) and I know how great WE would be if we became more educated (See Canada)... Oh well.

Yeah I get it Gabe, you have something against the USA.

 

[Buttons*]

In Science there are certain theories that have been proven which become facts, and set the foundations of knowledge and understanding. Then by applying these we are able to test and apply more theories in order to understand more of ourselves and our universe.
What are the basic religious theories that have been proven, and what have they done for us?

I don't know.... I seem to feel that religion can sometimes be the most logical thing we have. For instance, all of us know scientific laws as facts, and we trust them. We can even calculate them for ourselves. Saying that, it is not the same understanding or feeling one gets when one is "touched" by the Divine. (Or the Other, or God, or Allah... anything you want to call it)

This is the formula I will use to try and explain how I got to this conclusion:

1) Experiential evidence for something is largely the most accurate (IE, I know what sex is like because I have experienced it.)
2) Experiential evidence is usually logical.
2) Religions often if not always involve some kind of experience.
4) Therefore, religion involving experience has the potential to be usually logical and largely accurate.

Sure, it's not a formal argument, and I'm sure there are flaws in my reasoning, but I can always go back and change it to something more understandable.

 

[footprints]

Being good at being good at things which actually contribute to society positively

And I can think of nothing more positive in society than the great charity work many religions do. Much more vauable to society than a lot of scientific fields.

You would think the world would have common sense wouldn't you? Fix up what we have now before we develop any further. Sigh, not the case, we will look for cures for cancer, when we can't even prevent a child from starving on the streets.

 

[footprints]

I think nationalism should be encouraged here.

People keep throwing the race card round and it seriously annoys me. Everything we do as a nation to protect our way of life is seen as racist and i damn well hate people playing their games to make us look like white supremists.

Nobody can make a person look a supremacist if they are not a supremacist.

Most Australians don't need to be encouraged, we have pride in Australia,naturally.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Yeah I get it Gabe, you have something against the USA.

And you have something against fact. You think we give the most, I showed you we do not and we are actually one of the lowest aid givers in the world, You activate "ignore system" and repeat your false beliefs.

I think we would be a better nation if we went the way the Canadians are going looking to socialize our economy and CARE for out citizens rather then the theocratic backwards society we have todasy celebrating ignorance and violence.

But that is just me footie.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

haha footie

 

[Onkara]

In Science there are certain theories that have been proven which become facts, and set the foundations of knowledge and understanding. Then by applying these we are able to test and apply more theories in order to understand more of ourselves and our universe.
What are the basic religious theories that have been proven, and what have they done for us?

Religion is the output of logical philosophy. Even mythicism has messages, one needs to learn to read it between the lines. To assume there is no logic is to judge the book by the cover imho.

Begin with "Creator and Creation", are they seperate or the same?
Next how do you (not another person) know? By what grounds do we come to claim we know something?

These will lead to religion. The majority of which is then reduced to fables and conversation in order to help the less lerned learn? Afterall, that is where I also started to look for the logic in religion.

It is very likely one will end up with a "god of the gaps" or some type of philsophical "deus ex machina" which may need to be accepted or rejected thus brining the whole logical system tumbling down. However this is where ones personal investigation has come to a logical peek and one will no longer need to accept and reject based on popular sources having done the logical enquiriy required by a modern, educated mind.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I don't know.... I seem to feel that religion can sometimes be the most logical thing we have. For instance, all of us know scientific laws as facts, and we trust them. We can even calculate them for ourselves. Saying that, it is not the same understanding or feeling one gets when one is "touched" by the Divine. (Or the Other, or God, or Allah... anything you want to call it)

This is the formula I will use to try and explain how I got to this conclusion:

1) Experiential evidence for something is largely the most accurate (IE, I know what sex is like because I have experienced it.)
2) Experiential evidence is usually logical.
2) Religions often if not always involve some kind of experience.
4) Therefore, religion involving experience has the potential to be usually logical and largely accurate.

Sure, it's not a formal argument, and I'm sure there are flaws in my reasoning, but I can always go back and change it to something more understandable.

written like a Gnostic, mistress buttons

and so very true

although religious logic sometimes differs from scientific or philosophical logic

why?

because it deals with things that go beyond the 5 senses..
Essentially its all down to yard stick.... which measuring device is best.

Those that decry the lack of knowledge in religion, are generally those unable to think or experience outside the box....its the old lead a horse to water, but you cant make them eat cheese...story

 

[Buttons*]

written like a Gnostic, mistress buttons

and so very true

although religious logic sometimes differs from scientific or philosophical logic

why?

because it deals with things that go beyond the 5 senses..
Essentially its all down to yard stick.... which measuring device is best.

Those that decry the lack of knowledge in religion, are generally those unable to think or experience outside the box....its the old lead a horse to water, but you cant make them eat cheese...story

Indeed

I remember that old parable from a young age. My mother even led a horse to water with some Gouda in it, and the horse wouldn't eat it! It was one of the best points ever made.

 

[darkendless]

And I can think of nothing more positive in society than the great charity work many religions do. Much more vauable to society than a lot of scientific fields.

You would think the world would have common sense wouldn't you? Fix up what we have now before we develop any further. Sigh, not the case, we will look for cures for cancer, when we can't even prevent a child from starving on the streets.

My line of thinking is that the charity work they do is undone by the not so positive things churches do such as:
- impose morality on society,
- churn out fundamentalists
- hurt society in general with baseless stances on many social issues (homosexuality being the most obvious of recent times).

etc etc.

Charity work is good, but amongst other rubbish its sometimes hard to acknowledge the good without the bad crushing the respect.

 

[footprints]

And you have something against fact. You think we give the most, I showed you we do not and we are actually one of the lowest aid givers in the world, You activate "ignore system" and repeat your false beliefs.

I think we would be a better nation if we went the way the Canadians are going looking to socialize our economy and CARE for out citizens rather then the theocratic backwards society we have todasy celebrating ignorance and violence.

But that is just me footie.

Your so called facts didn't include all facts. As an example you are holding it against the USA for having more children than Sweden in their population. That is just an irrational position.

And even if I do base it on your irrational evidence, it still says, religious societies like Sweden are the most giving.

 

[zenzero]

Friend KayOS,

Where is Logic in Religion?
In Science there are certain theories that have been proven which become facts, and set the foundations of knowledge and understanding. Then by applying these we are able to test and apply more theories in order to understand more of ourselves and our universe.
What are the basic religious theories that have been proven, and what have they done for us?

Who is this *US??
Analyse that and the answer will get revealed.

Love & rgds

 

[DallasApple]

Emotion is chemistry, without it we would have no emotions.

I love this statement..

Love

Dallas

 

[footprints]

My line of thinking is that the charity work they do is undone by the not so positive things churches do such as:
- impose morality on society,
- churn out fundamentalists
- hurt society in general with baseless stances on many social issues (homosexuality being the most obvious of recent times).

etc etc.

Charity work is good, but amongst other rubbish its sometimes hard to acknowledge the good without the bad crushing the respect.

Darkendless, if society had to foot the bill for all the charitable work religious bodies do, we would have to double our taxes.

As for homosexuals, yes it is unfair, but just remember it took nearly 200 years in Australia for women and Australian aboriginal people to get the vote, and for people of aboriginal heritage to be considered human. The gay rights movement still have a long way to go yet.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Do we need teaching how to be a human being? I don't think so. Who teaches a dolphin to be a dolphin, or a spider a spider?

I also don't think we need religion to teach us morality. I think it can be a useful tool in the process, but not essential.

Humans are the only species on earth which has an overwhelming majority of the knowledge used in its day to day existence come from extra-genetic sources. The answer to your first question is an overwhelming and resounding, Yes. We without any shadow of doubt need teaching how to be a human being. "You don't think so" Really? So you are telling me that your behaviors are completely and utterly unconnected to the behaviors of your parents, teachers, and social climate in which you were raised?

Humans are such a complicated creature that we require more than one teacher on how to be "human." The range of human behaviors and beliefs is the broadest spectrum I am aware of with the only possible exception being some astronomical spectra (and I'm not holding my breath waiting to find out which of these is larger).


Religion is not an essential tool for teaching morality. Nothing is precisely essential. Was our birth essential to the continued existence of our genetic code? Not by a long shot. But it was the most likely event to occur or most satisfactory event at the point in time, and that is all religion is. It is the most satisfactory tool given the constraints (human instincts, behaviors, intelligence, customs, etc) that we (humanity) has managed to come up with.

We have tried and tried countless times through history to achieve intellectual Utopia whereby all members abide by some "advanced" morality scheme or by a particular set of ideology (or ideologies), and in every case the "experiment" has failed. Overestimating humanity is just as dangerous as underestimating it. Want a better way than religion? Invent it. We don't currently have it.

MTF

 

[DallasApple]

I guess there are some things that just defy "logic"

TALK to AMAZING LOSER!!

He's yur hook-up on this one.. :yes:

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

I think no MATTER what we do our children will start wars.Or be invoolved in a war.

Love

Dallas

 

[darkendless]

Darkendless, if society had to foot the bill for all the charitable work religious bodies do, we would have to double our taxes.

As for homosexuals, yes it is unfair, but just remember it took nearly 200 years in Australia for women and Australian aboriginal people to get the vote, and for people of aboriginal heritage to be considered human. The gay rights movement still have a long way to go yet.

Exactly. Religion is always standing in the way. Think of all the money wasted on the issue from media to campaigns. America is much worse.

Movememnts cost money and religion standing in the way only increases the bill.

 

[footprints]

Exactly. Religion is always standing in the way. Think of all the money wasted on the issue from media to campaigns. America is much worse.

Movememnts cost money and religion standing in the way only increases the bill.

darkendless it is not only the religious who are homophobic.

For most part, many Australians will say Gays are okay, but as long as they leave me alone and don't display any affection in public. In other words homophobic. It isn't just the religious.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Your so called facts didn't include all facts. As an example you are holding it against the USA for having more children than Sweden in their population. That is just an irrational position.

And even if I do base it on your irrational evidence, it still says, religious societies like Sweden are the most giving.

But the damn swedes are atheist foot, not religious.

Cheezes Cherrios.