Monk Of Reason
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I don't follow any gods....?
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Who caused Satan or the devil rebel
- Thread starter upperroom
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Adam was gifted with the power of healthy everlasting life on earth forever if he kept God's law. Obeying God and living forever on earth go hand in hand.
God will open His hand, so to speak, and satisfy the desire of every living thing - Psalm 145 v 16 - meaning God will fulfill the desires of humble people - Psalm 10 vs 17,18 - starting with Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom - Psalms 72 v 8; 37 vs 11,29
Isn't whatever we put first in one's life can be one's god ?
Monk Of Reason
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This isn't in any way a response to what I said.
I said that what we "want" to believe doesn't actually change what "is". Our belief is irrelevant to the truth.
No. No it isn't. Not in any meaningful way anyhow. This scam of calling anything "god" was created by evangelical priests as a way to convert people and create a pseudo argument that at first glance almost sounds like its not a load of crap.
But if you don't believe me then lets compare it. What is "god" and how does it function on a fundamental level in our lives? Qualitatively god can be just about anything but it is always supernatural and above oneself. The link they try to make is "love". I love to do "X" so "X" is my god. But "X" doesn't fulfill any of the functions of god. It isn't all powerful. It isn't above myself. It isn't anything except an object of my appreciation. However the psychological goal is to attempt to get people to feel guilty that "god" isn't the most important thing in their life.
Monk of Reason:
But is one's belief irrelevant to the ' religious truth ' as Jesus taught ?
So, if a person looks in a mirror and sees the object of his appreciation then that person is his own god.
What is there about Jesus, new commandment at John 12:34,35 to have self-sacrificing love for others an attempt to get people to feel guilty.........
catch22
Active Member
Eve caused Eve to rebel. Adam caused Adam to rebel. The answer for the enemy is similar, albeit spiritual beings differ from humans in ways we're not all clear on. To say God allowed it is accurate, of course, and He uses it, yes. Did He cause it to have an adversary? That, I seriously doubt.
Monk Of Reason
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There is no "religious truth" and "truth". There is only "truth". Truth is the conformity of opinion to the reality. Religious truth is almost an oxymoron.
If a person looks into the mirror and likes themselves does not make them a god. If opinion simply makes things god has no power we don't give him.
Why would someone be self sacrificing to try and make someone else feel guilty? That is underhanded manipulation of adolescence thinking.
Theodore A. Jones
Active Member
No one tempted Satan. He did what he has done on his own.
To Jesus ' religious truth ' is what is recorded in Scripture, Not outside of Scripture.
Jesus ' new' commandment about self-sacrificing love for others [ John 13 vs 34,35 ] was Not to try and make someone else feel guilty, but rather we should love others more than self.
Monk Of Reason
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Yeah. Doesn't make it actually true though.
Thats a neat command. Probably why secular humanist follow it.
True, a secular humanist can follow Jesus ' new ' commandment of John 13 vs 34,35, but Jesus was addressing how to identify the genuine ' wheat ' Christians from the fake ' weed/tares ' Christians. The identifying mark would be having the same self-sacrificing love that Jesus had for others. Secular humanists do not follow the commission of Matthew 24 v 14 to preach.
Part of Jesus self-sacrificing love was to inform others about the ' good news of God's kingdom'.
How Jesus would be king or ruler of God's kingdom for a thousand years over earth, and that Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will be the One who will be ushering in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
Monk Of Reason
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All this talk about true Christians and what signs they give reminds me a quote. Its an excerpt of a rant where someone was talking about all the great people of the world that weren't Christian but followed Christian values but according to Christianity was going to hell.
"..and Ghandi was so fricking Christian he was Hindu!"
However Ghandi wrongly made a reference to something Jesus said about ' an eye for an eye '.
The world's definition is: revenge
The Constitution of the Mosaic Law definition was: NOT the ' Law of Retaliation ', but equal justice. The Scales of Justice would have to be balanced. Meaning if a person stole another's animal he would have to return it and make any necessary compensation.
Today when someone is robbed often the law does not require the thief to return what he stole. So, the world's connection to revenge has No support in God's law to ancient Israel.
Now please keep in mind when the KJV Bible was printed in English it used the English words hell and hellfire. In Scripture the Bible's hell is simply: the grave. Hellfire comes from the word Gehenna. Gehenna was simply a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever.
So Gehenna [ hellfire ] was a fitting word for destruction, and destruction is only for the willfully wicked - Psalm 92 v 7
The day Jesus died Jesus went to the grave or biblical hell - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32
The reason ' biblical hell ' is the grave is because Jesus taught only: sleep in death.
- John 11 vs 11-14
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach: sleep in death.
Ecclesiastes 9 v 5 even says the ' dead know nothing '.
The Psalms [ 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4 ] also teach sleep [ Not pain ] in death.
The prophet Daniel looked forward to being awakened from death's sleep - Dan. 12 vs 2,13
When the Jews mixed with non-Jews and mixed in Greek philosophies and theories that is first how the stone-cold grave started to catch on fire. Religious-myth teachings about the dead being more alive after death and able to feel pain or bliss developed.
Gospel writer Luke wrote us forewarning us that false shepherds [ religious leaders ] would appear in sheep's clothing in order to fleece the flock of God. - Acts 20 vs 29,30 - and all that fleecing [ religious-myth teachings ] started with the death of Jesus' apostles.
* The world teaches a ' permanent ' burning hell as being eternal.
* The Bible teaches a non-burning hell as being the ' temporary ' grave for mankind.
Revelation [ 20 vs 13,14 ] speaks of everyone in the Bible's hell as being ' delivered up ' or resurrected out of hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell. Some people are resurrected to heaven [ Rev. 20 v 6 ], but the majority of mankind [ John 3 v 13 ] will be resurrected back to physically healthy life on earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth which includes Ghandi being restored to healthy life on a beautiful paradisaic earth.
Nada
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Excellent explanation! I especially liked the last part.
Monk Of Reason
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Literally none of this has anything to do with what I posted. I mentioned Gandhi because when it comes to those who use peace and non-violence to bring about great change he is one of the greatest figures in this respect. He had pretty much all of the "signs of the holy spirit" that Christians claim.
So I always thought it was interesting when Christians only take the good people for their claim and cut the rest out. But they also cut the rest of the good people out that just so happened to not be Christian. And a quick survey through history shows that your religion often has little to do with how moral you are.
Didn't Jesus use peace and non-violence to bring about first-century Christianity ?______
Jesus taught Not to live by the sword [ violence ] at Matthew 26 v 52; Rev. 13 v 10
All who cultivate the fruit of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5 vs 22,23 reap the benefits.
Doesn't our built-in conscience have a lot to do with morals ?________
Unless damaged, a person's conscience can serve as a reliable guide.
For when people of the nations, who do not have law [ biblical law ] they do by nature the things of the law, these people of the nations, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being ' accused ' or even ' excused ' .
- Romans 2 vs 14,15; 1st Timothy 4 v 2
' Excused ' as a hardened conscience can become calloused like flesh seared by a hot iron.
Who did Jesus ' cut out ', so to speak? Jesus' ransom covers MANY - Matthew 28 v 20
Many would mean the most or majority of mankind.
Jesus excluded only those committing the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12 v 32
Many people lived and died before Jesus died. Many never even heard of Jesus.
Jesus' ransom covers them because they will have a healthy physical resurrection back to healthy life on a beautiful paradisaic earth during Jesus' 1000-year rule over earth.
Remember: The price tag or wage that sin pays is: death.
So, one's death pays the price for one's sins, or as Romans 6 vs 7,23 says the one who has died is freed or acquitted from sin. As a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do not stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges do not stick.
We are not talking about now being innocent, but that future hope exists that resurrected mankind can become upright and righteous in all their dealings.
So, a quick survey of Christendom [ so-called Christian ' in name only ' ] shows she is Not genuine Christianity, but rather the fake ' weed/ tares ' who Jesus warned against because they are Not the genuine ' wheat ' or ' sheep ' followers of Christ.
Monk Of Reason
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See...its not really an issue if Jesus said anything or not. The problem is that it isn't a distinctly Christian aspect. In fact if anyone worth their salt analyzed the situation and if they ever came to the cnoclusion that the "fruits of the spirit" existed then they should be able to conclude that Christianity is not the root of it as it exists in other cultures just as strongly. In fact If I were to assume that those that had peace of mind and kindness in their hearts I would probably assume Buddhism to be the correct religion.
Or biblical law was loosely based off of this built in conscience that we all have and is in no way the root of it.
On the bold...isn't it a bit funny that the only sin they can't forgive is scorning god? It isn't murder, rape, torture inducing of mass delusions, lying, cheating, oppression, ect. Its all based around not being able to say bad things about God. And this seems incredibly asinine.
True. But after a quick survey its also called "no true Scotsman".
Either Christianity brings peace or it doesn't. If its wholly in the individual then it seems far more likely it has to do with the intrinsic nature of that individual.
People who have adopted true Christianity - including former criminals - ' put on ', so to speak, a new peaceful personality. So, in that sense true Christianity brings peace.
When people oppose one becoming Christian, then they are disrupting peace. That is why Matthew 10 vs 34-36 mentions people close to you who oppose you cause division.
Even Jesus, at first, was thought ' mad ' - John 10 v 20 - by some relatives.
Often what they oppose is what Jesus said to say to do at Matthew 24 v 14 that God's kingdom would be preached internationally before the end comes of all badness on earth. They often oppose such preaching work - Matthew 10 vs 16-23 - so it is especially painful when family members or loved ones reject what Jesus taught.
Isn't a God involved in religion. Yet, isn't Buddhism supposed to be enlightenment without God ?
The root of biblical law [ such as the former Constitution of the Mosaic Law for ancient Israel ] is Not rooted in conscience, but the root Source of biblical law is the God of the Bible.
One can Not repent for sinning against God's spirit - Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; Matthew 12 v 32 - whereas a person can repent from murder, rape, torture, etc. And is instructed to absolutely do so at 2nd Peter 3 v 9. Repent so as not to perish - be destroyed .
The fruitage of God's spirit - Galatians 5 vs 22,23 - does exist because it's aspects are:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control, and against such things there is no law. Who was ever arrested for keeping those existing qualities ?