WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

[3rdAngel]

If you can't cope with the fact that definitions and interpretations are different things then I can't help you.

Well I only quoted what you said earlier and then provided scripture proving what you said is not supported any scripture evidence. Then I went the extra mile for you and provided the old and new testaments definition of scripture being the divinely inspired recorded written Word of God thinking it might be a help for you. I guess not.

Take care.

 

[Ebionite]

Well I only quoted what you said earlier and then provided scripture proving what you said is not supported any scripture evidence.

No, you didn't do that.

 

[3rdAngel]

No, you didn't do that.

Please forgive me but I do not believe you. The post trail is there for all to see.

 

[Ebionite]

Please forgive me but I do not believe you. The post trail is there for all to see.

The burden of proof is yours, not mine.

 

[3rdAngel]

The burden of proof is yours, not mine.

The burden of proof for what? You mean you saying this..

If scripture is defined by covenant then the basis of your position is untenable because of Paul's slander of Moses, who was instrumental is bringing the covenant of Mt Sinai to the twelve tribes.

Already addressed. See post # 102 linked that you are unwilling to discuss.

 

[Ebionite]

Already addressed.

You misrepresented my position, as would be expected for someone who follows Pauline doctrine.

Your post makes absolutely no sense now. It was you that made the claim earlier that scripture is defined by covenant.

No, this is what I said:

If scripture is defined by covenant then the basis of your position is untenable because of Paul's slander of Moses, who was instrumental is bringing the covenant of Mt Sinai to the twelve tribes.

You brought up covenants, not me:

This is the birth of Israel who was born in the flesh of the seed of Abraham. This lead to Gods promise of the Messiah in Jesus and Gods new covenant promise of forgiveness of sins through faith in Gods Christ and the birth of Gods true Israel no longer born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but born of the Spirit through faith in Gods Word. Islam is a false teaching because God never made His covenant promise through Ishmael but through Abraham's true wife Sarah and Isaac.

 

[Bthoth]

Bollocks.

Then I cut asunder mine other staff, [even] Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Zechariah 11:14

Which is what israelis are doing with the Jews, right now.

Israel DOES NOT represent the Jews of the world.

Jews keep the rules, israel expects to control and be a house.

IN tanakh, israel are the dross.

 

[Bthoth]

You don't get to define what scripture is.

neither do you.

The primary issue here is your circular reasoning which is built on Pauline doctrine. If you can show that earlier claims are relevant then I'll address that.

In a sense, that is what many do

There wasn't just a single covenant promise.

That makes sense as the wisdom evolved over time.

The most important side is what the people must sustain; keep the rules

In the same day YHWH made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.
Genesis 15:18-21

There is that return (circle), the idea of being given a land.

If scripture is defined by covenant then the basis of your position is untenable because of Paul's slander of Moses, who was instrumental is bringing the covenant of Mt Sinai to the twelve tribes.

Mt sinai.... Egypt. The commandments/torah. Most important part: what must the people have to do. Not a prize, land or promise.

Did you forget the 3000 that moses had killed at mt sinai for not following the rules?

 

[Ebionite]

Which is what israelis are doing with the Jews, right now.

That's not the same Israel, as I've pointed out out from the Tel Dan stele.

The Three ‘David’ Inscriptions

Chances are you’ve heard of the famous one from Tel Dan—here are two more.

armstronginstitute.org

 

[Ebionite]

The most important side is what the people must sustain; keep the rules

The interpretation of the "rules" is typically assumed by the religious elite, and people follow that. This is why knowledge is essential.

But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy Elah, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:6

 

[Bthoth]

That's not the same Israel, as I've pointed out out from the Tel Dan stele.

The Three ‘David’ Inscriptions

Chances are you’ve heard of the famous one from Tel Dan—here are two more.

armstronginstitute.org

Not the same, than what is the focal importance to define the israel/Jews.

My acceptance will come from 'people that keep the rules' as the importance.

The choice to do what is right over pride, family and arrogance will earn my loyalty.

 

[Ebionite]

Not the same, than what is the focal importance to define the israel/Jews.

What is important is the actual history of Israel, i.e. the history that you refuse to accept.

 

[Bthoth]

What is important is the actual history of Israel, i.e. the history that you refuse to accept.

There, you just misrepresented the importance of judaism by your own hand.

The importance of the system is "KEEP THE RULES" the commandments that impose personal responsibility. Be honest before all other choices.

That is what is so beautiful (perfect).

 

[Ebionite]

There, you just misrepresented the importance of judaism by your own hand.

It's not misrepresentation. History matters because facts matter.

 

[Bthoth]

It's not misrepresentation. History matters because facts matter.

But you wrote that the important of abraham was to keep the rules, the commandments.... obey them.

History does matter when true. The most important aspect is, honesty before belief. The religious dialogue is not the rule of law to identify historical fact. Being honest is keeping the commandments, the rules that must be obeyed.


Be honest first, the words identifying an israel are not on the tablets. The material of the stone is gone.

be honest, first!

 

[Ebionite]

But you wrote that the important of abraham was to keep the rules, the commandments.... obey them.

No, I didn't.

 

[Bthoth]

No, I didn't.

OK, I may have confused you with another that keeping the commandments was important. It could have been on another thread.

No matter, I already know torah is quite clear:

Deut 7:
9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. 10 But

those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;
he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.
11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

It's paramount to any that expect to have any covenant / promise.

Sorry if I considered you already understanding Torah's premise of why a covenant made sense.

To those that follow the rules, the truth will unveil.

 

[3rdAngel]

You misrepresented my position, as would be expected for someone who follows Pauline doctrine.

Quoting you is not misrepresenting your positing

No, this is what I said:

I quoted you.

You brought up covenants, not me:

No you stated that the covenants defined scripture which is what I was commenting on in your claims that the writings of Paul in the new testament are not scripture then defined what scriptures is using the Hebrew and Greek and scripture itself that is in disagreement with you. See post # 102 linked that you are unwilling to discuss.

 

[Ebionite]

Quoting you is not misrepresenting your positing

You're deflecting. You didn't quote anything I said that supported your #99 when you said that "It was you that made the claim earlier that scripture is defined by covenant."

No you stated that the covenants defined scripture

For the second time now, I did not.

What I actually said in my #106 was "If scripture is defined by covenant then the basis of your position is untenable because of Paul's slander of Moses, who was instrumental is bringing the covenant of Mt Sinai to the twelve tribes."

Paul's slander of Moses is from 2nd Corinthians:

And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:13

 

[3rdAngel]

You're deflecting. You didn't quote anything I said that supported your #99 when you said that "It was you that made the claim earlier that scripture is defined by covenant."

Quoting you is not deflecting. It is quoting you and responding to what you said with scripture that is in disagreement with you

For the second time now, I did not.

I quoted you. Its there for all to see.

What I actually said in my #106 was "If scripture is defined by covenant then the basis of your position is untenable because of Paul's slander of Moses, who was instrumental is bringing the covenant of Mt Sinai to the twelve tribes."

Paul did not slander Moses.

Paul's slander of Moses is from 2nd Corinthians:
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:13

2 Corinthians 3:13-15 is not Paul slandering Moses. Paul is quoting scripture from the Torah from Exodus 34:33-35

• Exodus 34:33-35 33, And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. 34, But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the veil off, until he came out. And he came out, and spoke to the children of Israel that which he was commanded. 35, And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

The application of 2 Corinthians 3:13 is to the unbelieving Jews who reject Christ who does away with the veil that hides the glory of God.

Take care.