WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

[Ebionite]

Paul did not slander Moses.

Paul slandered Moses by saying that he wore the veil so that they children of Israel could not see that his face no loner shone.

And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:13

You're emulating Paul's dishonesty when you said that you quoted me about the alleged claim that scripture is defined by covenant. If you were telling the truth then you could quote something I said that supports what you posted earlier:

It was you that made the claim earlier that scripture is defined by covenant.

 

[3rdAngel]

Paul slandered Moses by saying that he wore the veil so that they children of Israel could not see that his face no loner shone.

And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:13

You're emulating Paul's dishonesty when you said that you quoted me about the alleged claim that scripture is defined by covenant. If you were telling the truth then you could quote something I said that supports what you posted earlier:

As proven from the scriptures earlier that you simply ignored here, Paul was not slandering Moses in 2 Corinthians 3:13-15. Paul is quoting scripture from the Torah from Exodus 34:33-35

• Exodus 34:33-35 33, And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. 34, But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the veil off, until he came out. And he came out, and spoke to the children of Israel that which he was commanded. 35, And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

The application of 2 Corinthians 3:13-15 is to the unbelieving Jews who reject Christ who does away with the veil that hides the glory of God.

• 2 Corinthians 3:13-15 13, And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.15, But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart.

You do err not knowing the scriptures here that prove your claims are falsehoods.

Take care.

 

[Bthoth]

corinthians are letters between church, not gospel or by jesus.

Stay focused on the difference of opinion and discussion.

 

[Ebionite]

As proven from the scriptures earlier that you simply ignored here, Paul was not slandering Moses in 2 Corinthians 3:13-15.

They don't support your position.

In 2 Corinthians Paul said that Moses wore the veil so that the children of Israel could not see that his face no loner shone, but in Exodus, Moses wore the veil because of the fear of the children of Israel.

And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
Exodus 34:30

 

[3rdAngel]

They don't support your position.

In 2 Corinthians Paul said that Moses wore the veil so that the children of Israel could not see that his face no loner shone, but in Exodus, Moses wore the veil because of the fear of the children of Israel.

And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
Exodus 34:30

Your post and claims make no sense. Your claims are indeed debunked in post # 122 linked which prove why what you are saying is unbiblical falsehood.

 

[Ebionite]

Your post and claims make no sense.

They make sense because Paul's defamation is based on falsehood, and the falsehood is that fear of the shining face of Moses (Exodus 34:30) is not the same as intent to mislead as implied by Paul (2 Corinthians 3:13).

This isn't an isolated case. Paul referred to circumcision as mutilation, which is also a lie because mutilation implies loss of function and there's no loss of function with circumcision.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Philippians 3:2-3

katatomé: concision, mutilation

Your claims are indeed debunked in post # 122 linked which prove why what you are saying is unbiblical falsehood.

Your proof has no substance, which is consistent with your Pauline doctrine.

 

[Colt]

GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GOD'S WORD!

According to the scriptures, the name "Israel" is only a name given by God to all those who choose to have faith in His Word. In the new covenant scriptures, I would like to pose that Gods true Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow what Gods Word says and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11) through faith in Gods Word. Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27). According to the scriptures, if we are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. God never made His new covenant with Gentiles (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) but with believers regardless of their heritage.

According to the torah and new covenant scriptures the Messiah also represents God's true ISRAEL as an individual as it was applied to Jacob and as to those who also believe and follow God's Word. The Messiah (Jesus Christ) and his followers are Gods true Israel born of the Spirit of God, are the anti-type, the Israel in the flesh that is not the type as Jacob was or the nation of Israel born of the seen of Abraham. According to the scriptures, Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15, compare with Hosea 11:1; as are all his disciples all through time; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19) see Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:33; Romans 9:6-8; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Corinthians 15:46; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 3:6, 8:8,10; Revelation 3:21

'Israel' "born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham", as an unbelieving 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire. The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9) The new testament scriptures portray JESUS as the head and those who believe and follow his Word as the body *Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18. God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

More to come later....
1. ORIGINS OF THE NAME ISRAEL IS OUTSIDE OF COVENANTS
2. GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GODS WORD
3. GENTILE BELIEVERS ARE NOW GRAFTED IN

May God bless you as you seek to know Him through His Word.

The Bible is a series of Books written by holy men with imperfect faith and an imperfect portrayal of history. It was not written by God.

***Abram was a chosen individual, his descendants then claimed to be a "chosen people" in a chosen nation! But even if that were true they lost their status when they rejected God in the Son on earth!

 

[3rdAngel]

The Bible is a series of Books written by holy men with imperfect faith and an imperfect portrayal of history. It was not written by God.

***Abram was a chosen individual, his descendants then claimed to be a "chosen people" in a chosen nation! But even if that were true they lost their status when they rejected God in the Son on earth!

Thank you for telling us your opinion as an unbeliever. It is however not what I believe. According to the scriptures, Gods Word, is both Gods spoken and written Word that is spoken or inspired by God and given to men to give to Gods people. Gods Word whether spoken directly by God (Exodus 20:1-17) or written (scripture) or given to His prophets, is God Word which is God breathed by Gods Spirit and given to holy men to give to Gods people (2 Timothy 3:16) who are given the name "Israel" by God who in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says through the spoken and written Word of God (Romans 9:6-8). According to the scriptures, God's chosen people are called "Israel" because God made His covenant promise through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (renamed Israel by God) and His descendants born of the flesh to the coming of the promised Messiah in Christ in the old covenant and then to Gods Israel in the new testament who are now simply all those who have been born of the Spirit to believe and obey what Gods Word says and who accept the promised Messiah in the new covenant.

Take Care

 

[Colt]

Thank you for telling us your opinion as an unbeliever. It is however not what I believe. According to the scriptures, Gods Word, is both Gods spoken and written Word that is spoken or inspired by God and given to men to give to Gods people. Gods Word whether spoken directly by God (Exodus 20:1-17) or written (scripture) or given to His prophets, is God Word which is God breathed by Gods Spirit and given to holy men to give to Gods people (2 Timothy 3:16) who are given the name "Israel" by God who in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says through the spoken and written Word of God (Romans 9:6-8). According to the scriptures, God's chosen people are called "Israel" because God made His covenant promise through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (renamed Israel by God) and His descendants born of the flesh to the coming of the promised Messiah in Christ in the old covenant and then to Gods Israel in the new testament who are now simply all those who have been born of the Spirit to believe and obey what Gods Word says and who accept the promised Messiah in the new covenant.

Take Care

Bible worship is a form of idolatry. It stunts progress and spiritual growth. The religious fanatics who rejected Jesus and put him to death used the false claim of inspired scripture as justification for murdering him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Bible worship is a form of idolatry. It stunts progress and spiritual growth.

I agree with you on this.

The religious fanatics who rejected Jesus and put him to death used the false claim of inspired scripture as justification for murdering him.

But this? I'm just not sure where you get the idea.

 

[Colt]

I agree with you on this.

But this? I'm just not sure where you get the idea.

Simply put, the scripture based reasons that contemporary Jews reject Jesus as Messiah today would have been the same sort of justification for rejecting Jesus 2000 years ago. I’ve listened carefully and sympathetically to those explanations and can see their point.

From the narratives in the Gospels it’s difficult to find anything egregious enough to put a man to death! The quibbling confrontations that the religious leaders had with Jesus were so silly and trite!

 

[Monty]

Bible worship is a form of idolatry. It stunts progress and spiritual growth. The religious fanatics who rejected Jesus and put him to death used the false claim of inspired scripture as justification for murdering him.

The Romans, however, executed him for sedition and as a threat to the Roman Empire, along with thousands of others.

 

[Colt]

The Romans, however, executed him for sedition and as a threat to the Roman Empire, along with thousands of others.

That’s not what the trial narratives say. Pilate didn’t find Jesus guilty, the Romans took no offense at the spiritual teachings of Jesus concerning a spiritual kingdom. It was the Sanhedrin that found Jesus worthy of death but needed their Roman occupiers to carry out the death penalty because they were forbidden. That was the whole reason for going to Pilate.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Simply put, the scripture based reasons that contemporary Jews reject Jesus as Messiah today would have been the same sort of justification for rejecting Jesus 2000 years ago. I’ve listened carefully and sympathetically to those explanations and can see their point.

From the narratives in the Gospels it’s difficult to find anything egregious enough to put a man to death! The quibbling confrontations that the religious leaders had with Jesus were so silly and trite!

I first want to place this conversation in context. When we speak of the gospels, we are not talking about anything Jesus wrote, nor are they eye witness accounts. They are collections of legends that had accumulated about Jesus in the decades after his death. They are therefore not historically reliable. The truth is, we really have very little idea what things Jesus actually said and did.

Nevertheless, we can certainly discuss the stories about him, and what they say.

When I read the gospels, it was pretty apparent to me that Jesus was rejected by the religious leaders for two reasons 1. he claimed to be the Messiah and 2. he also made claims to having some sort of authority that others did not have, i.e. that he was the son of God, etc. In both cases, the religious leaders were simply convinced that these claims were false. It had nothing to do with whether they were "fanatics" or "believed the Torah was inspired." In there view, Jesus simply didn't meet the criteria for being the Messiah.

Jesus was not killed by the Jews. Even in the gospel accounts, which very obviously go out of their way to try to kiss Roman butt and blame the Jews, clearly state that it was Pilate who sentenced Jesus to death.

Pilate was a brute. He was finally removed from office by Rome because he responded so viciously to the Samaritan uprising. He did not become Prelate by being a pushover. Anyone who sincerely believes that Pilate got pushed around by the Jewish religious leaders is deluding themselves.

It was quite common for Roman officials to execute anyone they considered a troublemaker. The stories in the gospels depict Jesus as claiming to be King of the Jews, and becoming violent in the Temple during a time when Jerusalem was being swamped with pilgrims. Those things alone would be reason enough for Romans to put him to death. I'm not excusing Roman brutality, I'm just acknowledging it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That’s not what the trial narratives say. Pilate didn’t find Jesus guilty, the Romans took no offense at the spiritual teachings of Jesus concerning a spiritual kingdom. It was the Sanhedrin that found Jesus worthy of death but needed their Roman occupiers to carry out the death penalty because they were forbidden. That was the whole reason for going to Pilate.

Pilate had Jesus' crime nailed above his head on the cross--"King of the Jews." IOW, Pilate crucified Jesus for sedition.

 

[3rdAngel]

Bible worship is a form of idolatry. It stunts progress and spiritual growth. The religious fanatics who rejected Jesus and put him to death used the false claim of inspired scripture as justification for murdering him.

According to the scriptures Gods Word is both Gods spoken Word (Exodus 20:3-17; Matthew 4:4) and Gods recorded written Word known as scripture (2 Timothy 3:16). It is not idolatry to believe and obey what Gods Word says. Believing and obeying God and His Word is how we worship God and how we show our love to God (see Matthew 15:3-9; John 14:15; John 15:10; John 3:36). Idolatry however is anything we make in our life that leads us into not believing and obeying what Gods Word says. It was those religions fanatics you talks about that did not believe Gods Word that put Jesus to death according to the scriptures. (see John 1:1-14; John 8:46; John 10:37-38; John 3:36). If we do not believe and obey what Gods Word says then we are still in our sins and lost according to the scriptures (see John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9 compare Romans 10:17) and are of those who Jesus says in Matthew 7:21-23 depart from me you who work sin. I never knew you.

Take Care.

 

[Colt]

Pilate had Jesus' crime nailed above his head on the cross--"King of the Jews." IOW, Pilate crucified Jesus for sedition.

I think Pilate was actually mocking the Jews who wanted Jesus dead when he put that “King of the Jews” on the cross. They would have been furious! They had some political power over Pilate to be able to get him out of bed early in the morning in order to Cary out the death penalty.

Jesus had been teaching that his kingdom is spiritual and the King is God in the hearts of believers.

 

[Colt]

According to the scriptures Gods Word is both Gods spoken Word (Exodus 20:3-17; Matthew 4:4) and Gods recorded written Word known as scripture (2 Timothy 3:16). It is not idolatry to believe and obey what Gods Word says. Believing and obeying God and His Word is how we worship God and how we show our love to God (see Matthew 15:3-9; John 14:15; John 15:10; John 3:36). Idolatry however is anything we make in our life that leads us into not believing and obeying what Gods Word says. It was those religions fanatics you talks about that did not believe Gods Word that put Jesus to death according to the scriptures. (see John 1:1-14; John 8:46; John 10:37-38; John 3:36). If we do not believe and obey what Gods Word says then we are still in our sins and lost according to the scriptures (see John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9 compare Romans 10:17) and are of those who Jesus says in Matthew 7:21-23 depart from me you who work sin. I never knew you.

Take Care.

The church derives its authority from the scriptures that they wrote. Naturally they benefit from convincing the flock that God wrote their rule book.

 

[3rdAngel]

The church derives its authority from the scriptures that they wrote. Naturally they benefit from convincing the flock that God wrote their rule book.

You have it back the front. There was no Church before the Word of God. That came later. Gods Church are simply all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says.

 

[Colt]

I first want to place this conversation in context. When we speak of the gospels, we are not talking about anything Jesus wrote, nor are they eye witness accounts. They are collections of legends that had accumulated about Jesus in the decades after his death. They are therefore not historically reliable. The truth is, we really have very little idea what things Jesus actually said and did.

Nevertheless, we can certainly discuss the stories about him, and what they say.

When I read the gospels, it was pretty apparent to me that Jesus was rejected by the religious leaders for two reasons 1. he claimed to be the Messiah and 2. he also made claims to having some sort of authority that others did not have, i.e. that he was the son of God, etc. In both cases, the religious leaders were simply convinced that these claims were false. It had nothing to do with whether they were "fanatics" or "believed the Torah was inspired." In there view, Jesus simply didn't meet the criteria for being the Messiah.

Jesus was not killed by the Jews. Even in the gospel accounts, which very obviously go out of their way to try to kiss Roman butt and blame the Jews, clearly state that it was Pilate who sentenced Jesus to death.

Pilate was a brute. He was finally removed from office by Rome because he responded so viciously to the Samaritan uprising. He did not become Prelate by being a pushover. Anyone who sincerely believes that Pilate got pushed around by the Jewish religious leaders is deluding themselves.

It was quite common for Roman officials to execute anyone they considered a troublemaker. The stories in the gospels depict Jesus as claiming to be King of the Jews, and becoming violent in the Temple during a time when Jerusalem was being swamped with pilgrims. Those things alone would be reason enough for Romans to put him to death. I'm not excusing Roman brutality, I'm just acknowledging it.

So, you choose the reliability of the Pilate crucified Jesus part of the Gospels……but dismiss the part about religious leaders taking issue with Jesus’ apparent blasphemy and bringing Jesus to the governors attention ??

That seems like selective editing of the Gospels you already discredited?

The Torah, which I assume you have no reliability issues with, includes the death penalty for various offenses………but it’s just inconceivable that religious men in Jesus’ day could have had him put to death????